An interesting idea arises. If matter knows itself and can decode itself, then it also can manipulate itself. Up to what point can matter self manipulate itself ? After all the earth is a ball of matter with a bacteria like gel called “MAN” or “CIVILIZATION” or “HUMANITY” that manipulates the environment hence MATTER MANIPULATES ITSELF. What are the limits ? If matter can decode and manipulate itself eventually with no limits, then god doesn’t exist. If there is some kind of stop sign, some limit after which matter cannot self decode and manipulate, then this is the beginning of the supernatural-metaphysical, of god.
Yes this is correct. But this is because we are looking at reality from our constraints, from our limitations and carving out the rules through pain/pleasure measurements. If we look at it from far enough, there is nothing fundamental about our reality except our subjective relationship to it.
And, just because we may not be able to define reality in all its objectiveness, does not mean it does not exist. This (the master code if you will) is what puts the constraints on everything else.
The reason why mathematics is so effective in describing reality is because MATTER KNOWS ITSELF. Why wouldn’t matter be able to decode itself ? After all we are simply matter talking to itself, decoding itself and ultimately manipulating itself. So matter can discover its own laws and regularities, so why be surprised ? We are made up of matter, we can discover ourselves by following certain pathways, so matter can ultimately decode and discover how it works all by itself.
Another interesting point is the debate between creationists and natural evolutionists. What makes a magic assignment of the creation by a god more or less miraculous or incredible then a sequence of causes and effects that lead to the same result ? They can both be seen as totally miraculous and incredible or normal everyday phenomena. The reason why a magic assignment by a god seems so incredible is simply because we are not used to seeing it everyday. It is something too rare for our mind, it is something we are not used to experiencing or that is too far outside the way our mind decodes reality. But then for the creationists, the fact that matter can evolve automatically into a human seems just as incredible, it is something they are not used to experiencing etc.
So both explanations at a deeper level are equivalent, only that the creationist finds self evolving matter too impossible to be true and the scientist finds magic assignments too impossible to be true. It is more a debate on aesthetics, more on how things look, are they pretty or ugly, incredible or boring, etc. If we lived at the quantum size level, particles would pop in and out of existence every moment, we could easily accept magic assignments, or if we lived in a computer simulation where very complex things just appeared and dissapeared without cause and effect, we would easily embrace creationism. What is incredible and what isn’t ?
So, does consciousness give rise to matter? Or, does matter give rise to consciousness? This is the question which needs to be asked. Because matter does not possess anything, without some degree of consciousness or awareness. For example, would we possess our bodies if we weren’t even aware that we existed? How so? Therein lies the magic …
Physics is just a bunch of equations ued to predict how certain experimental configurations will behave. It is simply a tool. Maybe the ultimate elementary particle is the mind which cannot be decomposed into anything else, it is a monolithic slab of consciousness that cannot be reduced to anything, the scientific method of reductionism cannot be applied to the mind.
So then we are not made up of matter ? what are we made up of, pure spirit ? are we looking at the universe from OUTSIDE the universe ? We are matter looking at itself and talking to itself. Maybe a large complex assembly of matter organized in a certain way, but WE ARE MATTER THAT IS LOOKING AT ITSELF AND TALKING TO ITSELF AND DECODING AND MANIPULATING ITSELF. WE CANNOT GET OUTSIDE OF MATTER, WE ARE MATTER.
If we look at a material system composed of two items, one item is a “scientist” thinking, experimenting and interacting with another item that is an experimental apparatus configured in a certain way, well the total of these two items is a material system that seen from outside is TALKING TO ITSELF.
Of course the subject - object relationship within the system remains, one item thinks the other responds, a table doesn’t think etc. But the total of both seen from outside or from afar is one system, one material system made up of matter that is talking to itself and decoding itself and manipulating itself. Interesting is that there could be many other combinations of matter-energy that could be in an analogous state (beings living in computer simulations etc). So matter talks to itself, can know itself, and mathematics demonstrates that matter can find out all by itself how to decode, understand and manipulate itself.
Could that mean that matter also simply INVENTS itself ? is MATTER simply creating itself and inventing its own universe since in the end it is simply talking to itself, manipulating itself hence creating itself ? Maybe matter in this configuration does not even need a material substrate and is pure information, somewhat like the IT FROM BIT theories. Or is matter a pure mind, that cannot be decomposed or reduced into anything else ?
Life is experiential that, at the very least, requires that we be sentient. Without sentience, we possess nothing … regardless of how everything else “seems” to be configured.
nameta9:“A godless universe may be more terrifying than one with a god.”
K: I have spent over 30 years pondering this question.
I believe a godless universe is less terrifying then a universe
with a god. The very idea of a god in the universe means that
we are temporary renters of the planet earth. And renters can be
evicted at any time for any reason without recourse.
If there is no god, then we are property owners who cannot
be evicted. We have inherited a piece of property from our
parents and now what do we do to improve the property
to be able to pass it on to our kids? If we are owners as I
believe, then we must rethink, just about everything,
Then our very idea of the earth changes, if we feel
we are owners of earth. This is why a godless universe
is less terrifying. For then we own. I like that.
Matter is infinite, our universe contains within itself all the universes that are not part of it, that are outside our universe. It also contains all the possible universes.
If matter is self interacting, then maybe it is simply a self invention, it creates itself by observing itself, it may have no material substrate at all. It could simply be a pure state of information, much like the IT FROM BIT theories of reality. The mind may simply be a monolithic slab of pure consciousness that cannot be reduced to anything, since the scientific method of “reductionism” cannot be applied to the mind.
Any explanation is simply a painting, an arbitrary assignment of causes and effects that have no deeper necessity or meaning than that they are arbitrarily assigned. So anything is equivalent to our universe, even a contradictory one, even one with no physical laws or any quirky physical laws, even one with an elvis presley as god and atoms as small guitars. That god could magically assign effects and it would in the end be equivalent and just as necessary as ours .
If you look at science and the laws of physics from a far enough point of view, they are just quirk assignments, they have no intrinsic necessity. This does not mean they do not work or that they are incorrect, yes they work and are correct especially for us humans as they pertain to our subjective experience, our sense organs, the way our mind is hardwired, the way we carve out our knowledge by following paths through pain/pleasure measurements, etc.
But seen for what they are, the laws of physics are just quirks, they could have been anything else, they could be anything else and even a complete lawless universe could be. They are equivalent, they are like paintings, arbitrary designs. If a god assigns miracles magically, it would be completely equivalent to a sequence of causes and effects, magical assignments make just as much sense as physical laws and mathematical laws. They are bizarre quirks.
Contingent upon the fact that this Great Mind was without a choice, that is. Also, what would be the requirements in order to maintain this great mind of “all possibilities?”
It is not a mind, it is the universe or matter or reality. There are no requirements because it is free from all interdictions and constraints, even that of being free from constraints. It is like an infinitely recursive generalization and at a certain point defeats even judgments. IT IS MAGIC. SURREALISM. Just assign your universe, make it all up, invent anything, you are free.
So matter can self manipulate ? Then it can create its own hell and punish itself. Then it can create an infinite punishment for itself until matter cannot stand it anymore. Then it can create infinite pleasure the same. Matter self interacts itself into an infinite oblivion or infinite sensations-emotions. Very odd point of view, may be true.
Matter or God or whatever that self manipulates to infinite pleasure. Or matter that self manipulates its very existence, logic, its own particles etc. What is the limit ? Just imagine the wildest scenarios, matter that self invents itself, that provokes self big-bangs, or that designs its own laws of physics ? Or matter that turns itself into pure emotions, EMOTION ENGINEERING ? Yeah, just add on to the science fiction…
So if a material item self manipulates, then it could not have independent parts ? Which part manipulates which, then it could be a point of self achievment, then it could automatically achieve everything imaginable, all possible internal emotions ? Then what is the limit ? Feed the insanity. Imagine an emotion to matter generator or a space to time to sentiment-emotion converter. Or number decomposers…
These things are fake, but everything then is fake after all, since it is all just structures in the mind. They become real only because they “carve out pain/pleasure” like someone on these forums says.