This topic brings me back to the case of Terry Shyba (not sure how to spell it) in the case of of right to life. She’s been in vegitation for several years, without any certainty of recovery at all. Who has the right then? Of course Terry has the right, that is if she were able to speak, like the unborn child.
Morally it would be wrong to pull the plug because you are giving up her life.
Logically it would be right to pull the plug because the hospital expense would accumulate over time.
Would the family/husband have the right to give up her right?
Abortion is never an option unless the mothers life is in danger FOR SURE.
There are always options like adoption or if you are dumb enough to get knocked up as a teenager, you can always, although I wouldn’t recommend it, leave your kid at a police station or hospital, no questions asked.
For some reason a fetus is just a lump of protoplasm to liberals if it’s American. But for some reason when it is in the body of an Iraqi woman shot becuase the driver approached a checkpoint without slowing down and without responding to orders from American troops to stop the fetus becomes this holy shrine of all things pure and undefiled.
I agree with you post… there is an IN-YOUR-FACE double standard that liberals have about things!
The Terri Shiavo case was clean cut and dry. The Husband took another wife. He therefore entirely forfeited his rights to do as terri requested. Had he maintained his vows then I would have had no beef with the dirt bag refered to her as a husband. Let me outline my case!
If he was correct and this was Terri’s wish, he should have been man enough to champion it from the begining, not play frogger with it all.
He took another wife. I dont care if there is a legal binding marriage or not… he boinked her and had kids with her, and thats more than enough in Gods book. He abdicated his authority of Terri back to her father!
If the claim that Terri was already dead was factual he had no worries if the parents wished to continue false hope and weep over a sack of soulless flesh with a pulse!
All in all, we see a bunch of people without much care for its family as shown by Terri’s X and by here father whom was too cowardly to kill Micheal before it ever came to this. If Terri’s father was sure about this being not being Terri’s desire his course of action was made evident! He is a worthless dad for failing to protect his Daughter! And Michael is a worthless husband for commiting adultry as he did against his wife!
Shiavo picked her husband and paid the price for a poor decision. This story is nothing but all kinds of sad!
When you cut your finger is it murder? When a doctor performs a heart transplant is it still the same person after the operation?
The trick to realize here is its not a question of life. Life ends all the time. Life is just a process. We can lose the majority of our bodies and survive with current medical technology. But the single organ which would prove fatal to our identity if lost is the brain.
The brain is who we are. A human body with no brain is no person and as such has no rights and no need of our social acceptance as a person. Put a brain in there and you have a different question.
If we look at it this way then it is clearly the mind that we seek to extend the concept of rights to. But a fetus in its early and mid term development do not have anywhere sufficient quantities of brain cells to even begin forming a mind. There is no person present in the form. It may grow to increasingly resemble a human but it has no mind and thus has no need of moral concern.
There is no difference ethically to performing a normal abortion than there is to performing an appendectomy. Both result in the death of human tissue. But neither result in the death of a person
I am not a liberal I am a moderate and your arguments defy all modern logic. Just like Terri Shiavo the only person who failed her is a.) god if you believe in it and b.) Herself. People always neglect that she did that to herself via an eating disorder. So another person who failed is you on doing your research . There was no way she would ever recover it was not “her” anymore for without the mind there can be no soul.
"He took another wife. I dont care if there is a legal binding marriage or not… he boinked her and had kids with her, and thats more than enough in Gods book. He abdicated his authority of Terri back to her father! "
LOL the niavete. God’s book was written by man, edited, contorted, etc. So…once again you crazy Conservatives are following the word of men…not a supreme being.
As far as the Iraqi woman example I declare that absurd. Frankly, I don’t give a shit about a fetus compared to that of a human life. I grieve only the loss of the females mind not her fetus. But the fact that she was pregnant makes things worse. If someone died in the US and is pregnant it’s still the mind/soul which is mourned.
P.S> Astral quit with damn exclamations already it hurts my eyes.
So satori… let me help you understand some things!
If I stab you with a knife, or burn you in a way that does not kill you can I be a murderer? No doubt you would want to slap the “atempted manslaughter” clause on me. Just to point out your stupidity, if you cause destruction at any level that ends and organisms collective life that is killing and murder if its without cause! How can you be so stupid to compare it to pricking a finger! come on… do you think you chatting with someone at a kindergarten education level?
And if you wish to make life an arbitrary thing just because it ends all the time then why are there laws against killing people? Even accidentally?
Well you obviously are not a religous person or you would have stated the soul is who we are and not the Brain. So on that point I really dissagree with you, and since you dont believe in a soul I cant persuade you otherwise. Tsk Tsk.
So you wish to delcare the unborn as a non-human class based on a miscontrued technicality. Didnt they do something like that when they said blacks are not human either and are suitable as slaves? What makes you think you’r right where they were wrong? DNA is how human life is identified… not by our brains! Babies have HUMAN DNA… thats pretty simple!
I suppose when they were hanging Blacks in trees they were “Perfoming Blackendectomies!” (no pun intended)
I noticed you think God is pretty much a construct of Mankind especially as far as the bible is concerned. Perhaps you, in all your wisdom and knowledge, will now produce YOUR version of the Bible so that people will understand better. But I think you are blowing out your anus and sniffing the fumes instead!
I dont think you give a crap about any life. If you did you would not hold the positions you do. I must say that it will be sad to not have you around to debate with in heaven. I mean after all those souless babies that you kill without minds and all are dead. I mean the fact that God said He knew you before you were “in the womb” means nothing right? O yea… another construct of man… gotta remember that one.
If my exclamations are hurting your eyes, my apologies! But they are there to represent the “Excalmatory!” sentences I am making.
PS… I know I defy all modern logic. My own prophecies tell me that evil will be considered good and good will be considered evil near the end. Your just another sign of that prophecy. I have no reason to freak out because a supporter of evil is telling me I defy logic. In fact it helps to let me know I am on the right track. Thanks!
As I see it, there is no doubt that abortion is the taking of a life. Human beings have 46 chromosomes as does the so-called “fetus†(i.e. baby) at the moment of conception. This is pure science and is inarguable (gametes being what they are you know).
Abortion is the eucharist of the radical feminist movement. But in the heart of hearts of every woman, they know abortion is the taking of life and that may very well be why most women weep so bitterly with sorrow and loss after the procedure is done to them. Do woman weep with such sorrow after any other medical procedure? Certainly not! They know instinctively that something very terrible has happened to them. Abortion is the worst disaster in the history of mankind. Passion.
Your post exemplifies why I said women like to use abortion as a method of having control. Much like power mad “Dictators”. Its their way of feeling alive and powerful! Mwuahahaha!
Abortions lovers remind me of the bulimic women who do that because they think everyone else controls their life too much and need a way to assert their own idea of self control? Caw we say… “Psyco?”
Hi Astral. I think many women have been brainwashed on this subject. It is very sad because plenty who have had abortions truly regret it afterwards. In some of these cases, the despair and anguish that follow their abortion is often the catalyst leading these dear women to truth. Arguably, it may be this type of harsh despair that Kierkegaard suggested was necessary for a true “leap of faith†(which is often preceded by intense anguish and despair).
Once a woman’s consciousness is heightened - after actually experiencing the misery of the act of abortion and realizing intuitively what has really happened to her baby - the more despair she feels. Kierkegaard might say, “the more consciousness the more intense the despair.†I wonder how many women come to make the “leap of faith†after going through the misery and sorrow they suffered in the abortion death cult? Passion.
Where the heck is the compassion for women in this thread? Or just even concern for their safety in regards to the procedure? OOOH abortion should be illegal… well that’s fucking fantastic… lets send women back to backyard butchers and have them dying so that we can sleep sounder at night. Good thing this is about you and not about her.
Regardless of what you believe about abortion, women have the right to a safe medical procedure should they choose to have an abortion. They should have access to therapy before and after and should not at ANY time be made to feel guilty by people who not only have no idea what she’s going through but should damned well make sure their backyard is clean before they start sticking their noses over into someone elses.
Hi vintage-orchid. Thank you for your thoughts on this subject. I understand your comments and I do sympathize with them. You said; †…lets send women back to backyard butchers and have them dying so that we can sleep sounder at night…â€
You are misinformed on this. The number of “back alley†abortions that occurred prior to the legalization of abortion has been vastly overstated by the abortionist cult. Furthermore, the horror of illegal abortion remains the horror of legal abortion. Killing is killing whether it is done in a back alley or in a so-called physician’s office. A child at the moment of conception instantly has 46 chromosomes just like you and other humans have. What other proof do you need?
You said, â€Regardless of what you believe about abortion, women have the right to a safe medical procedure should they choose to have an abortion.â€
A woman’s right to take her baby’s life through abortion should be balanced against her baby’s right to live and not be killed. The horror of illegal abortion remains the horror of legal abortion. The true risks of abortions are rarely explained to women by those who perform them (and never explained to the dad’s of those babies even though the baby is at least 50% his). Abortion wreaks havoc on a woman’s body and on her mind. Many women who have had abortions weep bitterly with profound sorrow and misery after the dastardly deed is done to them. Surely, these same women do not weep so mournfully when they have their tonsils taken out.
You said, â€They should have access to therapy before and after…â€
Why? If abortion is simply a “medical procedure†as you suggest, why the need for such mental therapy both before and after the abortion procedure is performed? Should a woman who has her tonsils taken out receive the same mental evaluations before and after the procedure? I think you know the answer to that. But you can answer for yourself.
You said, â€â€¦and should not at ANY time be made to feel guilty by people who not only have no idea what she’s going through…
The guilt that a woman feels when she has an abortion comes from within herself because she knows instinctively the great tragedy that she has undergone. The guilt she feels is derived from the procedure and its horrifying results, and that is why she weeps so bitterly afterwards. Your suggestion that those who oppose abortion do not “know what a woman is going through†is transparent – so I will leave it at that.
Thankfully, civilized societies seem to be awakening to truth about abortion and it is very possible that the abortion death cult will be an illegal one once again soon as it should be. Thank you again for your comments vintage-orchid. I appreciate your ideas. passion.
Passion,
I’m very interested in your post, but I have a few questions:
1.You say that the number of backyard abortions was vastly exaggerated. Could you post a link to some evidence of this so we can evaluate your claim?
I would be very interested to understand how you come to determine that a child is at least 50% the father’s. It seems to me that it would be more accurate to say at most 50% the fathers. If you use genetics as your argument (23 pairs of chromosomes), remember that the mother also contributes other genetic material that the father doesn’t (I refer to mitochondrial DNA). So, according to genetics, the baby does contain more genetic material from the mother. Perhaps you have another standard for claiming at least 50% ownership.
Don’t get me wrong, if not one more woman ever had to have another abortion for the rest of eternity, I would support that 100%. But, I think that we, as humane individuals, ought to work to stop the need from arising, rather than making them illegal. Of course, how you work to stop the need is the question.
I find those who oppose abortion do so on emotional
grounds, they FEEL they are correct in knowing the
right solution. They want to ban abortion from grounds
of certainty. From grounds of knowing the absolute
right and wrong as given by… god.
Abortion is murder, they claim, and yet this
statement is not anything more then morality.
Any statement of “this is right” or “this is wrong”
becomes a statement of morality. And what makes
your morality “THE MORALITY” the one everyone
must follow? You feel its right. Nothing more.
Questions of morality must follow me and what I feel because
I am right. And in the end, that’s all you have, a feeling.
no facts, certainly no logic, not science, but feelings.
I am guessing you are singing songs about “FEELINGS”
and how wonderful they are. The point of philosophy is to
take feelings out of the picture, (think religion)
and replace those feelings with facts, logic, science,
The point of philosophy is to understand the world rational,
not emotionally. Morality will continue to be (for a lack
of a better word) a muddle until we remove emotions
from our understanding of the world. Until we begin to
understand morality “right and wrong” from a
rational place instead of an emotional sense.
So I must be evil if Astral says so…but in lieu of his ad hom attacks of my intelligence and my mind/soul.
First rebuttal; I did not say they were not homo sapiens which is where your schisse about DNA came about. There is a different in rhetoric between a human and a person.
For the ideal of a soul I belive that the mind = a soul. It is what shapes our personalities, choices, and our true self. And no I am not a religious person and if you feel that, my mind or soul, is flawed than well perhaps I will not be in heaven since I follow along the more so Zen ideals.
There is always a cause in life and death. Your fixation with a Supreme Being tells you such. But I know it as the natural world. Cells die so others may rise from their dust. This is the murder I was speaking of in my first point about the finger being cut. Thousands of cells die at this time. Murder can be done with or without reason and it would still be murder. Now in regards to abortion I never said it was an ideal birth control. But if the woman chooses to have it removed from their body who are we to say otherwise?
As for why a woman weeps drastically after an abortion is simply because a huge shock has been done to the hormonal levels of the body. Her body which was setting up to maintain a child so it must go on a downswing hormonally. We often see women who do continue with the pregnancy weeping - Post Partum Depression.
Now as for Astral,
Ad Hom attacks are the weakest way to win an argument and frankly it is immature. If you were a really religious person you would not have mentioned my anus and the such and instead would have embraced me as your logical brethren. I am rather sure that Jesus ( who was most likely an Arab or African man) would not approve of your “blackendectomy” statement. I would never write a Bible my friend for the wisdom’s of life should be for each man to discover. There can be no textbook on how to live especially one that has been written by a man. As you said recently on another thread about the Democrats and Republicans that one can be assured they are “wheeling and dealing behind our backs” same can be said for anyone who does so with the idea of one’s mind. Caring about people and becoming overtly attached to it are completely rather different. I understand nothing lasts. “Ashes to ashes, dust to dust”. I know my Bible, I know my Qu’ran, I know my Upanishads, I know my Buddhist texts, and I also know to assume that any of them is entirely head on would correlate to the arguing worthy of a “Kindergartener”. Now calling me evil that is at least 2nd grade…I think.
As far as heaven goes I trust if there is one you shall not take residence there for you of all people are not following the words of your lord and savior. But thanks for turning the forums into your own attack at my stance and I. Thus proving what I had already believed which is; highly misinformed and disillusioned. That is all.
-Satori
P.S. Try not to get so excited about an online post (referring to your exclamation points) <-----perfect for me I suppose
which would you rather ‘murder’?
a baby just born?
or a fetus?
fact: chinese communists eat babies
and why is it easier for most people to choose the fetus over the baby?
arent they the same? and the thing about the baby not having a mind during the mother’s pregnancy, arent they sensitive to sound? i heard some parents put microphones over their bellies to stimulate their brain.
See, young at that point you struggle with what is a mind. Responding to stimuli means very little in regard of one’s “mind”. But it is an interesting ideal that you bring up young. I also question whether its not just the vibrations perhaps disturbing the child into movement.
P.S. I appreciate you maintaining some level of courteous questioning.
this is why debates on abortion are nothing but an exercise in futility.
No one is denying that what exists within a woman’s womb at the time of conception is the potential for life (and I shall say potential because I have misscarried - at my latest at 13 weeks, and all that exists is a clump of bloody cells that may or may not for a variety of reasons even make a viable human). What we will not see is women dying because of it.
As for your absurd notion passion that the stats for backyard abortions are lower than they thought. You’ve failed to take into consideration self abortion and help within the family. Herbs such as angelica and rue coupled with small amounts of juniper berry will bring on a miscarriage in the early weeks as will knitting needles and slamming your stomach against something hard - ususally a bathroom sink. Then of course we have the infamous soap and water trick.
Ever seen what a knitting needle does to a uterus… trust me… it’s something you wont forget. And yes. I’ve seen it.
Women have been aiding other women in this process for centuries… it dates back so far it fails to have a date. We’ve always done it. We always will.
A little empathy and a little less judgement is what is required.
Yes it is well known that the liberal philosphy does not like to have labels and names applied to it that represents you effectively. I have noticed that the same rules do not apply to you. One way your another… no matter how diplomatic or rude you are about this one of us is saying the other is wrong.
But by all means… do run away as a cheap escape trick. The “murderer” title upon you will follow you everywhere if you commit to abortion. I dont make the rules… I simply make you aware that abortion is murder.
You just like everyone else hates to hear when someone comes along and tells you about your own inequity. We are all perfect in our own minds when we refuse to accept how stupid we all are! You are no exception, no matter how much you wish it to be.
God sort out the rest? Well, you are aware that God will count you as being against Him when you are judged then? Christ said you are either for or against me. You can serve only ONE master?
Which master do you serve? The one of Death or the one of Life?
Make no mistake about it! Your claim that its just a clump of cells is meaningless. Your just a clump of cells as well! Under your philosophy lets just not have laws so they wont be broken!
Your logic is so screwed up you will twist anything to justify your inequity.
It never ceases to amaze how its a womans choice if that child inside of her is a life or not, and that in this secular “Science” driven society is not the deciding factor now. Science says its a life! The only question is does this human feel pain yet? and if so at what stage of development? Can it think for itself?
I notice the attribute of just a clump of cells are never used as a description when refering to any other species of animal. Perform a partial birth abortion on a dog and call PETA to witness the procedure. Infact air it to the world!
I would allow abortion under only 1 rule. The woman is sterilized. She shows that she cannot act responsibly, then there is ZERO reason to allow her to reproduce at all!
This only goes to show 1 thing! Pro-Choices care so much about sex that babies are nothing but and inconvenience in the process that needs to be killed! Of course taking responsibility is something any liberal would never advocate anyways! Unless of course it is a conservative type. 2-faced… point blank.
. There was no way she would ever recover it was not “her” anymore for without the mind there can be no soul.
<-----perfect for me I suppose