Aethiests what is your perspective of god?

W.W.I.D.

Welcome to the forum, glad you joined in. Do you realize that you have reduced the question of God, to the question of Religion:

I choose to not believe because that effect appears to me to be negative. Religion is the single greatest cause of war, hatred and exclusion in the world.

As a group of wanna-be philosophers, you must agree that questioning is one of the most important activities that people can do. Religion preaches the exact opposite of this, and because of that, I cannot follow it.

If as a wanna-be philosopher, don’t you think asking questions beyond the negative effects of Religion would be on your list?

Dunamis

I just got back from a church camp (yeah, I’m 14 now lol turned 14 tuesday… lol I signed up for the camp a long time ago, and I can’t really tell my mom that there is no god because she’d go kinda psycho… anyway), and it was really, really creepy. It seems like religion is a form of insanity and all of these crazy people actually believe that there is a God, for no real reason. I’ve kinda thought that for a while now, and every time I attend church it becomes more obvious. All of the leaders always talk about how 1.) they weren’t Christians most of their lives and they did bad stuff and now it’s all better, blah blah blah, or 2.) they had a friend like that and they committed suicide or something and they were so sad they went to hell that they decided to do ministry or 3.) they just seem fake. Most of the Christians I know are screwed up people, and I think that believing in a God and a heaven relieves them somehow.

Hi

Although I am a spiritual person and elder in a parish myself, I understand that there are reasons for not being Christian. I agree with you that the abstract argument about existence or non-existence of God is not exactly inspirational. Although I agree with you that we need to see the effects, most people stand on the outside, criticising what is going on inside. I mean this in the sense that sometimes, even when people are there, there aren’t, if you see what I mean.

Depending where you live, you could experience Christians or any other spiritual direction in great diversity, but on the whole as very otherly-worldly. If you get to know them, very often you are lucky and meet some nice people. Occaisionally you will meet the missionaries who don’t want to listen to a word you say, but instead push the Bible. But if you can meet the former, you can start experiencing the effect of belief.

You have to differenciate between the average church-goer and the people in power, who use religion to influence the masses. Unfortunately, if you live in America, due to a campaign of leading conservatives like Robertson and Falwell, Christianity has been politicised. In general however, there is a difference between the average believer and the “Christian” Warmonger. Looking into history, the dark ages suffered under the misapplication of church influence to support (e.g.)second sons of aristocracy, who had no other power.

Of course you have the rise of fundamentalism, which grows out of insecurity in a fast changing world. Forms of fundamentalism are found in all walks of life, but they are very prominent in Religion. If you read something like “The Battle For God” by Karen Armstrong, you will see how fundamentalism is the result of political manipulation, and less the effect of spirituality. You are right in saying that it has to do with power, but it is power using religion as a shield.

You have to get to know the influences within society to understand where this comes from. The most vocal are often only minorities, whereas the majority keeps silent. This is a frustrating fact, admittedly, but something you have to keep in mind. There is no one “belief of millions” and they are very often not blind. If you experience mainstream Protestantism and Evangelicalism, you will see a vast difference, although they both are movements that arose out of the Reformation. Christianity alone has so many varying facets, that it would be wrong to whitewash them all.

Shalom

hee hee yes it’s true. and what you call God i call coincidence.

but there is a major difference: intentionality.

Welcome to the boards, MMG.

I’m interested in the peace of mind thing you speak of. Sounds promising. You mention that attaining it is a hard-fought battle. I was wondering if you could clue me in on how I ought to start this battle.

I don’t think that God needs worship, he just allows us to worship him, to get worries off our hearts. Saying sorry and then being forgiven is very important for human beings.

Who knows? You may believe something about what happened before the big bang but this, obviously, is not demonstrable knowledge. I do know that there has never been a scientific discovery that has supported a theistic explanation of anything. From geology disproving a world wide flood to carbon dating showing the Earth to be 4 billion years old to cosmology to a helio centric planetary model to DNA to a consciousness that, for all the evidence we have, seems to be the sum total of physical processes occuring in the nervous system/brain. Laplace’s words ring as true today as they did over 200 years ago, “I have no need for that (God) hypothesis.” It seems that physical laws are sufficient reason for the manifestation of all that we can observe and predict. Simply because science can’t account for phenomenon x doesn’t justify arguments from ignorance when there is, in fact, no certain knowledge to point in any direction at all. A god of the gaps is a god waiting to be disproved and gods like these began to meet their demise with Copernicus.

Gravity, perhaps. I’m not a cosmologist but matter attracts matter and we can witness stars forming in nebulae, suggesting that over time matter becomes more compact and dense until planets and stars form.

Refer to the previous answer.

The fossil record speaks for itself.

My parents made me when they had sex. This process is no different than it is for the other millions of mammalian species living on this Earth.

Again, the general process is precisely this: 1.) Find an X that you can’t explain. 2.) Use a belief held on faith to describe in no precise or methodological way how X came to be. 3.) Flaunt your superiority for having a more comprehensive hypothesis that, in fact, explains nothing and, therefore, explains anything you need it to. Notice that you offer no explanation for how amoebas came to be other than the implicit “god did it”. How did god do it? How can we be sure god exists? Did it take time for god to create the amoeba or was it an instantaneous event? Why did god bother to create it at all? Why haven’t amoebas always existed indefinitely into the past if god is omniscient? Did god forget that amoebas were important for something and need to create them for that reason? Did god simply will it into existence? How do we know?

I’m sorry, but what we call coincidence is actually what you use as a thinly veiled argument from ignorance that you call god. The difference between us is that we see through your fallacies and you don’t. Rather than trying to figure out a problem whose solution could proffer genuine benefits for humanity, as scientific advances have done countless times, you prefer to exchange one mystery (say, that of abiogenesis or existence before the big bang) that we may have a chance of solving with another mystery that is permanently unsolvable and, by such a virtue, contributes nothing to the knowledge we have of our world, though it may assist you in holding a speciously argued belief system that ensures some sense of comfort and absolutes. Just imagine if Gallileo and Newton would’ve taken the same approach (Newton did, to an extent, but bear with me)! Newton, “Hm, these planetary orbits sure are interesting but rather than trying to figure this out I’ll just believe that god did this and put my mind at ease.” So much for the space program and the advancement of science.

Faith is not a valid epistemology, as faith is held necessarily when a belief is retained without evidence or reason to support itself. Beliefs held in faith, then, can neither be proved or disproved as they are outside the realm of knowledge and, therefore, confer no benefits to humanity other than the sake of tenuously held comforts and absolutes. Faith justifies anything and by such a characteristic, justifies nothing. I can as easily posit the existence of an invisible pink unicorn or leprechauns that live in the center of the Earth as I can a Yahweh or an Allah or an immortal soul. There are an infinity of concepts that can be justified using faith, but, of course, as soon as faith becomes the keystone for a belief then that belief can never be taken seriously. While beliefs held on faith could turn out to be true we would never have any way of knowing or testing their validity, and hence, they are invalid and I am an atheist. If god is all knowing then god knows that people like myself will never be convinced of its existence, precisely because god created people like me and then refused to offer any solid evidence for its own existence. I don’t worry about my fate after death, for if I have one then surely it will honor god more to see one of his creations striving to become the creator rather than merely giving up the only gift - his intellect - that seperates him from the countless lower animals that inhabit our planet. This is assuming an anthropomorphic god, of course, which seems quite absurd given the problem of evil and of free will. If you’re a pantheist then why call “everything that is the case” god when you could simply call it everything and be less ambiguous?

Hi, orniter. Welcome to the board.

What are you basing science on, if not faith? And how would you account for your answer to this question if you are a nihilist?

Science is based on inductive reasoning, logic, and mathematics. Faith is the antithesis of reason; faith is held when there is no reason and evidence, whereas science rests upon reason and is demonstrable by being both testable and falsifiable. As faith is neither testable nor falsifiable in this sense and science provides us with observable evidence I fail to see how I hold science to be true upon the basis of faith. While a complete and definitive account of what is and is not science is difficult the basic process that drives science is the scientific method… namely 1.) Collect data 2.) Formulate an hypothesis to account for the data 3.) Use the hypothesis to make a prediction 4.) Test the prediction. Induction gives us degrees of probability without certain proof. Science acknowledges that human beings can not access facts about the nature of the universe through divine revelation (for even if there were divine revelation we would have to be certain we could verify that it wasn’t psychological delusion, and, hence, the need for testable predictions) and, therefore, we must find ingenious ways to allow nature to reveal itself to us without letting our personal opinions of what nature should be like get in the way of our understanding nature as it is. Faith, on the other hand, is prone to claiming dogmatic and certain truths rather than taking the humbler, more rational stance that humanity’s ignorance is great and that while absolute truth is difficult to know we can still attempt to form useful approximations to explain our universe. Another crucial difference between science and faith is that science is self correcting. When we learned that Newtonian physics did not account for our observations at the extreme ends of size, speed, etc. we did not fight religious wars or engage in endless theological debate or try to use metaphorical interpretations of Newton’s Principia to ensure that the original “doctrine” of physics was saved and made to be compatible. Instead we admitted that we needed to move on and developed relativity and quantum mechanics, without which we wouldn’t have lasers, GPS systems, or a coherent description of our Universe, which, again, prove the efficacy of science. Science does not claim to be absolute truth, which Einstein testified to when he stated that, " All our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike-and yet it is the most precious thing we have."

Now the burden is on you. You must either admit that science and faith can, in no way, be equivocated or refute me and, if you want to be a skeptic about the validity of science, you need to propose a better method for obtaining demonstable truths while realizing that science makes no claims at absolutes.

There are many different forms of nihilism. The one I espouse is the one originally appearing in print in “Father’s and Sons” by Ivan Turgenev. “A nihilist is a person that doesn’t have faith in anything.” Faith, as I explained in my previous post, has no epistemic justification and I give no credit where it is clearly not due. My nihilism does not rule out meaning or truth, it merely brings these things down into the human realm of cognition. Hard nihilism, the type that states that there is no truth, is of course a contradiction of itself and uses unjustified special pleading to exclude the statement “there is no truth” from it’s own implications - namely that it is a form of truth in itself.

Well I could ask you what you’re basing “inductive reasoning, logic, and mathematics” on, but I’ll let the point slide. I have no quarrel with science.

The problem, though, is that it’s the wrong tool for the job. When we’re contemplating God - something we might postulate as metaphysical - we’re simply outside of the realm of the physical sciences. The question of God’s existence is a philosophical one, not a scientific one.

You’re pitting science against faith and ignoring philosophy.

I’m pitting reason against faith, not science against religion. I’m not ignoring philosophy because philosophy is and has been based on reason, not faith - which is precisely why there are different words for “theology” and “philosophy”. Again, faith is an invalid epistemology, so if you want to make an argument for God do it based on reasoning or refute my analysis of faith as invalid.

I have no problem with your analysis of faith. I’m not here to defend blind faith. I’m just pointing out that making claims that God doesn’t exist based on science (“I do know that there has never been a scientific discovery that has supported a theistic explanation of anything”) is the wrong way to go about it because the question is out of science’s domain.

If you have no problems with my analysis of faith then what would be a proper domain within which to question god’s existence? If science is too specific we can look at reasoning alone, which would land us, roughly, in the realm of philosophy. I don’t know of any good reasons to believe in god(s), as all the ones I’ve ever seen can be refuted, however. If we discredit faith and have no good reasons for belief in god then it follows that we should not have belief in god, although we can say that god may exist and we will, of course, believe if good reasons or evidence turn up in the future.

The long and storied history of philosophy is full of great thinkers who were theists. I would suggest starting with Plato and moving forward from there.

Yes, but my point is that philosophers don’t base their theism on faith because faith has no place in philosophy. I’m not going to go through every single theistic philosopher’s arguments for the existence of god, starting with Plato. I don’t have the time. If you can think of the best rational arguments you know, excluding the classical ontological/teleological/cosmological ones then I would appreciate it tremendously. If we’re getting too off topic we can do a different thread or you could e-mail me in private, as well.

Take the time.

It’s worth it.

I’ll take the time to fulfill your request if you take the time to fulfill mine; I think that’s a fair deal. I want a list of the top 5 or 10 rational arguments for the existence of god(s), whichever works for you. If you can provide me with something I can’t refute then I will take the time. If you can’t then there’s no sense in wasting my time, for indeed it seems to me that life is short and there is no afterlife to prolong it.

Sorry. All I’ll be able to provide are my interpretations of the arguments. And I’m a poor interpreter. You’ll end up just refuting me and my incomplete and incompetent interpretations, and not the arguments. That’s not gonna solve much. Sorry I can’t be more help, other than to submit to you that the arguments are out there. Your utilization of your time is completely your own business. Just seems like an important question to me is all.

Alot of the more solid arguments for God revolve around Jesus obviously… because he at least claimed to have trancended the metaphysical barrier. So with that being said… let’s consider the following theory which, by the way isn’t mine.

Let’s pretend for a moment Jesus was telling the truth (this isn’t faith… just inductive reasoning) and that he actually did do all the things he said, ie: walk on water, water to wine etc. Now pretend for a moment that this christian God wants to test our ‘faith’ in such a way that he would not show his face at all since the time of Jesus, thus making us doubt if all the Jesus hoopla actually transpired… to make us doubt God with the advent of science and technology.

If you think about it, this argument is actually very clever… because it works on the inductive premise of theory + test to confirm. They test the theory of causality by rolling a pool ball into another over and over to see if we will get the same effect right? and the fact that the ball is bumped forward a little bit by the first pool ball over and over… instead of say, disapearing completely… gives strength to this theory. Well similarily, this theory is tested over and over… the test could be as simple as saying outloud “God are you there?” and the fact that he does NOT answer actually gives credit to his ‘being there’. This is of course hinged on the argument that God is testing us… but causality is also based on an argument that also cannot prove without using tests which incorporate the original theory.

So that’s at least one argument you can rip apart Orniter. See it’s interesting because what you’re actually arguing is agnosticism… the fact that there is no evidence for the existence of God doesn’t point to athiesm… true athiesm would actually be very very very hard to actually prove if you think about it. But I say this because to not have faith in anything… you must first have a world in which nothing can be completely proven, which is basically what agnosticism states 'there is no evidence to say one way or another… (yet). You’ve just sorta got a fancier way of saying it… or Ivan Turgenev does at least.

Glad to see you made it, Orniter.
Welcome to ILP.
On that note, I shall exist stage left…I am staying outta this one.