Can atheism explain love?

Humans are complex beings, they are multifarious, they are not a single will but a fusion of distinct wills.

The concept of “will”, however, is a pretty weak one: wills merely reflect one’s abilities. So it is better to speak of abilities.

Humans, then, are a fusion of distinct abilities. The goal, as I’ve stated earlier, is to grow, to reach the limit of growth, that is to say, to develop these abilities to the max. But since we are not made out of a single ability but out of multiple abilities, the path of development is not a straight line. From the presence of multiple abilities in a single body, integrity and consistency follow (which basically amount to the same thing.) It is precisely for this reason that the path of development is a non-linear one: you cannot simply pick a single ability and develop it to the max while ignoring all the rest. People call it “overdevelopment”. Personally, I think that’s misleading: it implies that the goal of development is not the limit of development but a middle-point of some sort, which is not true – the goal is, at all times, the limit. The proper way to call it is “premature development”: one develops an ability too early. I also like to call it “cancerous growth”. You see, in order to keep growing as a whole, one has to make sure that the development of a new ability does not come at the cost of the whole. Nietzsche’s concepts of action and reaction, which I am very fond of, refer precisely to these concepts: healthy development is in Nietzsche’s terms action and premature development is reaction. So a development is said to be active if it promotes the growth of a whole and reactive if it promotes the growth of a part at the cost of the whole.

Your definition of “genuine love” is reactive. Why? Because you’re looking at it from the point of view of receiver and not from the point of view of giver.

See this:

Ironically, this is not seen from the point of view of loving parents, but from the point of view of child. Love, compassion, understanding and attention – this is what the child gains from the interaction. But what does the loving parent gain? That is what interests us here. If the loving parent is harmed by such behavior – if he loses the abilities that he’s been developing over the years – his love is not genuine (but cancerous or “overdeveloped”), though the child may perceive it as genuine. On the other hand, if through such behavior he grows as a whole, his love is indeed genuine.

It is our inner constitution – the abilities we are made out of – that define what kind of child, what kind of family, can help us grow holistically. We are not “free” here: you cannot make yourself love something you are not made to love (or something you cannot love yet.) Active people are characterized by their ability to know in advance what they want and what they do not want – they do not have to experiment too much (or at all.) Falling in love after the event is always a sign of decadence.

Yes. To grow in the right measure, to fullness rather than extension.

Every particular area of growth is in the larger view a means to growth of something very different.
A range of fields to tests ones skills and weaknesses and to taste punishment and reward, in the end serves to gain a conception of what it means to suffer and to bestow.

If we grow disproportionately, we may end up interpreting suffering as prior to bestowing, or bestowing as prior to suffering. We can get caught and all are caught in automatons, reward-systems that do not serve the larger objective of growth. This health, wholeness, wealth of self-hood is the goal of any ‘hobby’ or Wunderkind-gift, But all too often such gifts play out against the child, when the child as a whole is interpreted in terms of what it can do in this field.

That is a great challenge, one of the more difficult a human could face. The greatest temptations for a human come from being talented in truly superior ways. “The artists path” is a very good step to self-hood, but the artist-world is rather a place filled with such incomplete, overcomplete humans, who complement each other in the ways of perversity, a phenomenon which might well be the mundane outcome of the failure to maintain a center of gradually increasing, full circle completion.

Such cycles are the trials of the soul, the great loves and works… the immense chasms between the various areas, the loss of self in the abysses on every cusp of separation, every essence is won by trial, and a specialization is ultimately only a stepping stone to another specialization.

This is painful and hard for the protestant soul especially.

It takes an especially wise man to see why he should love something that is not himself. The question is “Can an atheist explain it”, not “Could an atheist explain it”. I have yet to encounter an atheist who even knows it.

No.

Altruism refers merely to closed relatives (kinship), perhaps also to other relatives, and to closed friends.

Apart from that, the nature is full of violence, marked by the will to power:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l56K8eAtCig[/youtube] [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RO9Fgl9SiPs[/youtube] [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=091tShC9nSo[/youtube] [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJIa6s8eGC4[/youtube] [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbHtMT62rUY[/youtube] [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAXu2wsT5f4[/youtube]

[list][list][list][list][list][list][list]The wildest market is the freest market.[/list:u][/list:u][/list:u][/list:u][/list:u][/list:u][/list:u]

“Altruism” as a concept, refers merely to being honestly considerate of others (“all-true”, no hidden agenda). In nature, it is typically only found within families or close-knit groups, and often not a lot of it there either. It actually has very little to do with sacrifice of oneself, but rather equal consideration of oneself and others, and thus allowing oneself to be at a disadvantage when necessary.

Then you are blind, and a fool. Atheists love for no reward; theists do it for heaven; and what poor examples they are.

It is neither wise nor foolish to love. Love is not a simple choice but a primal feeling, that knows no wisdom nor stupidity.

As for Theists, the question is not could a theist explain it, but could they ever imagine any reasonable explanation for anything, except the usual stock phrase god did it: as if that were an explanation for anything. Do they have any reason or imagination do go beyond their usual non-explanation.

To attribute love to a divinity is to dilute it. It is much too raw to be divine. At least in the Christian terms - of course ancient gods weren’t so sensitive and love was the cause of the trojan war. Primal is what it is. That is probably why you can love all kinds of creatures whether they are strong or not.

Nature never had any intention to survive. Rather, there exist an infinitude of intentions and some of these survive, become nature. Love is, it appears, this selected intention - it drives our whole cosmos.

What is the intention? To be fulfilled by fulfilling an entire world. This is the most ambitious intention and thus survives even where humans are periodically incapable of attaining to it. It is what survives in myth. The Christian myth makes of love a metaphysical thing. My most primal instinct tells me that this is the suffocating of love. I would say the idea of universal human dignity is of a radically different nature than love.

Love as pity – this is the greatest travesty. No man raised in pity will become great, unless he slays his father. That is may be the most important statement about Freud ever made – that he only applies to Christians.

Both seem to imply that the answer to the topic question is “no”.

The Christian notion is forever a-priori – whoever disagrees with Christs notion of love does not know what love is.

Love is in many instances care, or as I see it rather that which sparks care. Love is raw, care is not. The difference between these two is the friction line of many marriages’s madness.

Make no mistake - to take pity on someone who does not pity himself is the lowest insult a human is capable of.

Spoken like a true Christian.

Actually, this offensive form of pity is Christianity.

Drink less or write less.

Thank you Arc, it was a busy week & weekend, but I had a fruitful trip. :slight_smile:

I know that. I was just paraphrasing what many atheists say. I used the line in a rhetorical-question way, and it’s not what I really think.

I agree with you. I’ve said “humans are animals too” a few times myself in this thread. My view is that humans are animals but are equipped with a special capability to catch divine signals that god (or the spiritual energy of the cosmic level, if you don’t like the term ‘god’) emanates. That’s how we evolved consciousness that tries to unite us all, because that’s what this spiritual energy wills.

If you say that this spiritual energy is part of ‘Nature’, therefore Nature is divine, I don’t disagree. It all depends on what we perceive as ‘god’. It’s possible that god is something similar to what’s described in the Gaia philosophy, but either way, I just feel that it has a consciousness and a will and can reach to us at the individual level.

Yes, human evil does exist. But those evil things are only evil when gauged by the human standard. If creatures’ purpose is to survive, the principle needed is “selfishness” (which we all have) that gives yourself the utmost priority. Other animals don’t have a sense of “right from wrong” like humans do. In other words, anything that works for the preservation of self or the species is considered “right”, and anything that works against it is considered “wrong.” So, if we lived by the same standard, stealing food from seniors including killing them in the process to feed your younger self or your children if you had no other means, would be considered “right.” And we don’t describe other animals as ‘evil’ when they do this. But if we do this, it is evil. Where do the different sets of standards come from? It’s not from ‘nature’ because other animals don’t have this standard.

So, being a narcissistic bastard is not necessarily wrong in the purely naturalistic worldview, since your primary purpose would become passing on your genes over others. Survival of yourself and the members of your tribe is all you’d care about. That’s how other animals live. That’s how evolution would shape your mentality. But you and I both know that’s not how we should live. What separates us from other animals? I can’t find the answer except for posing a hypothesis that something else is influencing us, and I regard whatever that’s telling us to be human (humane) as the divine.

Well, let me say this lastly … I’m not trying to change your or anyone’s mind. If you think the concept of the sanctity of life can come somehow ‘naturally’ only to humans, that’s fine. If you’re not convinced of the existence of something divine, that’s fine too.

My purpose of participating in forums is not changing others beliefs, but testing my own for myself. I just can’t see that purely naturalistic worldviews can explain how humans behave (especially the selflessness we’re capable of). Also, by believing that this humans’ attribute of being selflessly loving comes from something divine, it becomes a moral imperative, and it binds me to obey it under any circumstance (though it’s not always that easy, I’ll admit).

If embracing ‘spirituality’ without the concept of the divine is possible for you (for me, it’s not), that’s perfectly fine with me. :slight_smile:

P.S. It’s really no big deal, but … my name is Yuujin, with ‘j’. :wink:

Lev, Hobbes,

I’m not merely questioning why the traits of valuing non-functioning members are in our genes, but why those “useless negative traits” (your words) have become dominant among humans and we act as if we consider them to be our moral imperative, as if we’re bound to honor those negative traits, and the people who do are praised and admired, and the people who don’t are condemned as immoral ??

Again, if your theory is right, what’s wrong with not having those “useless negative traits”? and thus not wanting to care for the helpless? What would you say to the people who want to abandon their dying children as I posed a question in my post on Sat Aug 16, 2014 8:21 pm ?? The biological logic is on their side, according to your view, right?

But somehow you and I both feel that we should force everyone to abide by those biologically negative traits that we happen to pass on, don’t we? And I’m asking why do you think that is?

I insist that your understanding of the word is technically incorrect (*see below). If you still disagree with that, please present an article from a legitimate source in the field of scientific studies that refers to progeny of the same species using the term.

*parasitism; relationship between two species of plants or animals in which one benefits at the expense of the other, sometimes without killing it.
britannica.com/EBchecked/top … parasitism

What?? “without her consent”?? Didn’t she know this could happen if she had intercourse??

When you write or speak, you should consider “connotation”. I think you’re intelligent enough to know how the term ‘parasite’ has generally been used. So, I still think my assessment of your being provocative is correct. Unless you were indeed ignorant of this connotation aspect of the language and had no idea many people would take what you said as derogatory.

Of course I’d save the five year-old. Fertilized eggs cannot grow to become a life without a mother’s womb, but fetuses are already a life.

If it’s okay to take a life as long as it won’t feel pain, how about if a five year-old is in a coma, and can’t live on his own without life support? The prognosis of his condition is good, doctors predict he’ll come out of the coma in about nine months if he is properly cared for … but his mother says, she can’t afford the time or medical expense (for the latter I’m sure there’s some government assistance if she is under the poverty level) … is it still her right to choose to pull the plug?

So, you are against elective abortion, after 24 weeks and 1 day?
Anyway, if you wanna continue the discussion about the abortion issue, please create a new thread. This is not exactly the topic of this thread.

But it seems to me, their(Christians-turned-atheists) beef is mainly with the god that’s depicted in the Bible, and I don’t view the Bible as synonymous with god. Thus their debunking the Bible does not attest to the non-existence of god at all.

Also the question “Do you believe in god?” is a tricky one. If you had asked the scientists, “Do you believe there’s something divine about the universe?”, they may have had a different answer.

Well, the primary(if not sole) purpose of those signatures is to ‘mock’, no? Either way, it’s a pretty high-school-ish thing to do, if you ask me. :-k

But I’ve found that you’re more fair-minded than I originally thought (that your default position is not set on automatically siding against anyone with different opinions), I’ll try not to hold it against you too much … :mrgreen:

Well, that’s all I can write today. It seems many posts have been added while I was away … It may take me a while to catch up.

I often attend a few forums at the same time too, so I may not have time to post here much when I get busy with other forums. But please everyone do continue to express yourself in regards to the topic. I appreciate various opinions you guys offer. :slight_smile:

Also, my purpose is more about introducing my thoughts and not so much about debating or convincing others of my views – it is always the case that some will see what I’m saying, and some just won’t, and I’m fine either way – thus don’t see the point in arguing ad nauseum. Once I think the conversation has hit the plateau (kind of starts going in circle in one’s argument), I may just bow out.

But I always thank anyone (regardless of their beliefs) who gives me the opportunity to see things from different perspectives. :handgestures-salute:

how can anyone really explain love…

Do you really want it explained? A mystery is a drive that makes animals more than what they were when they pursue it. The goal is the pursuit not the answer.

Explain it and it will disappear probably under false pretenses since no explanation can explain it.

Perhaps a Christian who is “unaware”, Lev. This has little to do with christianity or being christian. This has much more to do with the individual who is not paying attention, an individual who is indiscriminate with his compassion - offering it where it is not needed or even wanted, perhaps the individual who is incapable of seeing his act as a projection of his own need for compassion or victim mentality. I’m not saying this is always the case of course…but just like any other blessing, it can abused too.

Compassion is a wonderful thing under the right set of circumstances, especially when offered in a way in which the other is able to see and experience his own inner strength. If it makes some human being feel more the victim than the victor, it’s just useless pity.

In a way, I understand what FC is talking about although I wouldn’t call it the 'lowest insult" but that is another perspective. I would view it as squandering care and attention.
Of course, there ARE those who would be afraid to receive compassion as it would in their eyes, make them feel less human and weaker as a result of that. There are also those who are constantly looking for and feeding off anyone who would nurture their inner victim.
So, when it comes to compassion we have to be paying attention, both to the other and to ourselves. I suppose I might even view it as snake venom - it can help heal or destroy.