Does god exist ?

Carpathian · July 17, 2006, 2:47pm

Kriswest:

an interesting thread, especially with Ucci here, A very credible creator of arguments a, true educator of thought.

a few items to interject if I may;

Why does god have to be the creator of the universe, and if he is, that means there is existence beyond, around, in just generally someplace or time other then what we know. So, who created that? Did you ever think that maybe Man’s Gods has gods or a god? Has any religious person ever given thought to God’s happiness and bring blessing to God? have you ever spoke to this god as a person? or perhaps a child talking to it parent? Or do you just primarily grovel and worship and beg for things? why not give thought to how god feels as a creature, did you ever think perhaps this god could be lonely and needing comfort instead of people begging for things constantly. It sure would get on my nerves to have needy and greedy kids all around me.

An adult is omnipotent to a toddler, but that does not mean the adult is perfect, that only means the adult is perfect to the child which is exactly what the adult wants in order to guide the child, at some point the child must become aware that the adult is not omnipotent and does screw up.
All parental and infant relations are like this for most species. Does that not give you pause for thought? Why would this lesson be all around us if we were not meant to use it or think about it.

This entire world is a playpen full of important lessons, we can use them or suck our thumbs holding a ragged old comfy blanket.

Interesting questions; your post only comes to backup what i’ve said previously that almost every person has a different ideea of what god really is. Exept children under 10 who have no idea who or what god is supposed to be.
There are many things in your post i don’t agree with though.

Carpathian · July 17, 2006, 2:54pm

Nick_A:

Carpathian

I know you are aware of Newton’s first law of motion:

“An object at rest tends to stay at rest and an object in motion tends to stay in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force.”

As you know the universe consists of matter and all matter vibrates at various rates of speed. The higher the frequency of vibrations, the finer the materiality.

My question to you is without the life force at the source of vibration, what is the impulse that created vibration if a body at rest stays at rest? It is easy for me to see the intentional slowing of vibration to create the necessity of the material universe. What already exists is being manipulated through universal laws. However, if there is no life force source or God, what is the source of vibration? By Newton’s law it cannot initiate by itself. What is the alternative to God?

I got a very clear picture of how the universe came into existence… i could sum it up for you here… but then again you could take the time and read that yourself.

Now… what on earth is a “life force” does that come from a JEDI ? What do you mean by that ?

You bring shame to this well argumented thread about god… You’re one of those people who make no sense whatsoever… I had a guy in my high-school class just like you… We used to debate philosophy… and everytime he came up with an argument it was completly incoherent and i couldn’t follow his line of thought… if he had one.
So i used to just go… “aham… interesting… i’m not sure”.

Well here you go mate…

Aham, very interesting idea. I’m not sure what to make of it; give me some time to contemplate what THE HELL YOUR POINT IS.

Kriswest · July 17, 2006, 2:54pm

I should hope you don’t agree, otherwise it would get boring patting each other on the back wouldn’t it? and Why have a disscusion with someone who agrees, no fun in that. So what don’t you agree with?

Carpathian · July 17, 2006, 2:57pm

You’re right… i moved right to the next arguemnts because deep down i feel these arguments are irrefutable.
And you haven’t really refuted any of them; all you did so far is state that “your personal god” is not above logic/mathematics/laws of physics.

Which by the way is precisely what i wanted to hear from a theist.

Nick_A · July 17, 2006, 3:05pm

Carpathian

I agree. I am the svolach to end all svolaches. Now, that being said, vibration is still motion and motion does not begin by itself according to Newton. So, if there is nothing, no life force to initiate this motion of vibration that at slower speeds becomes detectable to us as matter, which by definition does not initiate by itself, what is your alternative explanation for the beginning, the first cause, of vibration?

Kriswest · July 17, 2006, 3:06pm

time

Carpathian · July 17, 2006, 3:09pm

You ask alot of questions sir, i’ll try and answer as well as i can.

Well my dear fellow you see theologians claim god “created himself” whats the difference between saying that and saying that the universe “created itself” … i don’t know. Exept for the fact that now you got intentionallity… you got “meaning”.

I call this “fake meaning” and “deceitfull intentionality” why ? Well because you can always ask “Why did god create himself?” or “What’s the meaning of gods life?” etc…

Precisely…

You have to distinguish between the simple peasant and the intellectual person.
A theologian might thank god for creating the universe… and peasant might thank god for the bread on his table.

No i never did that because i don’t believe such a creature exists.
Even so he never comes over for coffee or milk and cookies. And i refuse to talk to myself and pretent i’m talking to my god.

I agree with this one.

Nope… nobody is omnipotent; i may have power off life and death over my cats but there still things i cannot do, thus i’m not their god.

Carpathian · July 17, 2006, 3:17pm

ok… i’ll be nice and take life force to be “motion” aswell as the “it” that set everything in motion… hows that ?

Whats my explanation for the begining of motion in the universe ?

Well how about a big boom, an explosion if you will, which pushes everything outwards ?

“no life force to initiate this motion of vibration that at slower speeds becomes detectable to us as matter,”

This is complete and utter crap; sorry for being so harsh but:

Why only at slower speeds ? do you have any idea how atoms form ?
And how could it become detectable to us as matter… if we ourselves are made of matter ?
It doesn’t become detectable to us as matter because matter needs to already exist for us to exist.

Get it ?

Kriswest · July 17, 2006, 3:37pm

Carpathian:

Kriswest:

I should hope you don’t agree, otherwise it would get boring patting each other on the back wouldn’t it? and Why have a disscusion with someone who agrees, no fun in that. So what don’t you agree with?

You ask alot of questions sir, i’ll try and answer as well as i can.

Why does god have to be the creator of the universe, and if he is, that means there is existence beyond, around, in just generally someplace or time other then what we know.

Well my dear fellow you see theologians claim god “created himself” whats the difference between saying that and saying that the universe “created itself” … i don’t know. Exept for the fact that now you got intentionallity… you got “meaning”.

I call this “fake meaning” and “deceitfull intentionality” why ? Well because you can always ask “Why did god create himself?” or “What’s the meaning of gods life?” etc…

I agree with you.

So, who created that? Did you ever think that maybe Man’s Gods has gods or a god?

Precisely…

Has any religious person ever given thought to God’s happiness and bring blessing to God?

You have to distinguish between the simple peasant and the intellectual person.
A theologian might thank god for creating the universe… and peasant might thank god for the bread on his table.

Or perhaps ego of both; if one chooses slavery even when opportunity arises to free oneself, fear and ego can the slave from leaving even though the master has released the shackles. A simple peasant is an undereducated intellectual. The simple difference is drive and or accrued knowledge. A slave looks to its master for shelter, food, and other basic needs, remove the master and give freedom reality sets in pretty quickly that the slave must fend for itself, this is a pretty terrifying concept when one is born into slavery. Much the same as changing beliefs or questioning beliefs that have been pounded into your head since birth.

have you ever spoke to this god as a person? or perhaps a child talking to it parent? Or do you just primarily grovel and worship and beg for things? why not give thought to how god feels as a creature, did you ever think perhaps this god could be lonely and needing comfort instead of people begging for things constantly.

No i never did that because i don’t believe such a creature exists.
Even so he never comes over for coffee or milk and cookies. And i refuse to talk to myself and pretent i’m talking to my god.

LOL I acctually meant for those that pray to their God. why should they not consider its feelings instead of begging for things when praying.

But I liked that LOL

It sure would get on my nerves to have needy and greedy kids all around me.

I agree with this one.

Well, if you were a god with a bunch of fawning kids around that refuse to mature how would you think you might feel. Religious folks tend to stay pretty much at one level of awareness through ego and fear, perhaps investment too, that might be a part of it./hmm

An adult is omnipotent to a toddler, but that does not mean the adult is perfect, that only means the adult is perfect to the child which is exactly what the adult wants in order to guide the child, at some point the child must become aware that the adult is not omnipotent and does screw up.

Nope… nobody is omnipotent; i may have power off life and death over my cats but there still things i cannot do, thus i’m not their god.

I did not say the parent is omnipotent, I said it is omnipotent to the child, the view the child has or its perspective. When a level of awareness kicks in then of course the child will begin to see differently. Children go through many different levels of awarenesses. It is the perspective and awareness that is what I mean, not actuallity.

Ok I am going to have to change my sig back to the original, LOL FYI I am a 42yr. Wife and mom LOL

Duder · July 17, 2006, 3:40pm

It seems to me god is carved out of the ignorance of how the universe works.

Does Poseidon still control the sea?

Nick_A · July 17, 2006, 3:41pm

So as not to derail this thread, I will answer Carpathian and Kriswest on my old “Vibrations” thread

Carpathian · July 17, 2006, 4:04pm

@ Kriswest

We shouldn’t talk about such young children because they’re not relevant to this discussion.

Carpathian · July 17, 2006, 4:05pm

Good point; at least one type of god is derived from not knowing how stuff works.

Carpathian · July 17, 2006, 4:09pm

I appreciate this… :d However i still have no idea what your Vibrations are…

If you’re reffering to “strings” from quantuum physics then i suggest you go ask Steven Weinberg or Stepehn W. Hawking.

Kriswest · July 17, 2006, 4:50pm

I kind of see that in some ways they are metaphorically speaking of course. But if it is your wish, I fully respect it, then I will find another way to explain. Let me ponder abit.

Connections · July 17, 2006, 6:50pm

Hello all,

I’m new to this site. Nice to meet you all. My two cents on this discussion so far: I think it would be good to define omniscience as “the ability to know all things that are possible to know.” Then we can move from there. Is that fair?

Connect

Edited to fix wrong word.

Carpathian · July 17, 2006, 7:31pm

lol… no… we can’t… because if we accept that definition we’re all omnipotent… We can all do everything that can be done.

Oh and also… can you define human limits to me ?

Is flying possible ? Could we walk on the moon ? Could we split the atom ? Could we walk on Mars ? etc…
I’m with Nietzsche… No limits… only will power.

Connections · July 17, 2006, 9:47pm

Hello Carpathian,

We can do all things? I question the the veracity of that assertion Sir. Can you do ALL things that can be done?

Thanks,

Connect

Carpathian · July 17, 2006, 9:57pm

Yes, very much so.

I can do anything i wish within the range of my current possibilities.

Connections · July 17, 2006, 10:41pm

Hey Carpathian,

Are you saying that you have the liberty to do them or the actual capacity to carry them out? Can you bench press 500 pounds, for example? Me too. See, all people cannot do all things that are possible to be done. Your assertion is not accurate.

Connect