For noetician questions on Islam-

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This is looking at it from “his” perspective; imagine what that trapped and controlled environment felt like for the women involved. It is far more than just “annoying.” In the end, we come to the same conclusion, that patriarchy had (and has) devastating effects for both men and women (emotionally crippling men and stunting all of a woman’s potential and individuality). Read the very short and vivid depiction of this by Charlotte Perkins Gilman, “The Yellow Wallpaper.” It’s a story based upon Gilman’s real life experience and the common practice of the “rest-cure” prescribed for women, which was a “treatment” that only made the situation worse. In the story an intelligent and expressive woman is suffering from inactivity and a lack of freedom, but the so-called cure is “rest,” exactly what she does not need!

On the issue of the Qur’an, the author Asma Barlas has an insightful book called “Believing Women in Islam: Unreading Patriarchal Interpretations of the Qur’an,” which I found very helpful. She is a practicing Muslim woman, challenging limited, misogynist understandings of the Qur’an, but she also challenges western feminists in their interpretations of the Qur’an as well.

As for the sexual differences, Barlas writes: “The Qur’an does not use sex to construct ontological or sociological hierarchies that discriminate against women. Thus, the Qur’an recognizes sexual differences, but it does not adhere to a view of sexual differentiation; put differently, the Qur’an recognizes sexual specificity but does not assign it gender symbolism” (165). Basically, the actual text, according to Barlas, does not designate women as more emotional or men as more logical, etc.

Interestingly, Barlas also points out that "Islam is the only major living religion to include women’s accounts in its central religious texts [especially the numerous Ahadith by Ayesha, the Prophet’s wife] . . . which roughly accounts for “15 percent of the bases of the Sharia” (45-46). And there are only about 6 misogynistic Ahadith out of 70,000 (note also that these 6 were written long after the Qur’an). However, it is these 6 that "men trot out when they want to argue against sexual equality, while perversely ignoring dozens of positive Ahadith. Some of these positive ones “emphasize women’s full humanity, counsel husbands to deal kindly and justly with wives, confirm the right of women to acquire knowledge, elevate mothers over fathers, proclaim that women will be in heaven, ahead, even of the Prophet, record women’s attendance at prayers in the mosque during the Prophet’s lifetime, affirm that many women including women in the Prophet’s family went unveiled in the later years of Islam, and record that the Prophet accepted the evidence of one woman over that of a man” (Barlas 46).

Clearly, what needs to happen is a real questioning of why these particular texts have been so wholly forgotten while the 6 negative ones have come to dominate Islamic studies.

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:smiley: Yes, I was a housewife for 3 long, tedious years married to a neanderthal. Married women came to visit. Know what they talked about?
Dallas, how to wash clothes, how to aleviate fights with a possesive other half.

I divorced my ex’s sorry ass in three years :smiley: Being a housewife is the most brain deadening experience I ever experienced. :smiley: Remember the commercial with the husband returning home and the wife talking baby talk after being with children all day?? It is sooooo true.

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Clearly that woman must have come from a country where they let women learn how to write. Can she have a sandwich in public? I will have to look in the index.

I am a skeptic when it comes to books written by members of the religion about the religion. No one is going to write the tome, “I’m a Baptist and We Don’t Know Our Ass From a Hole in The Ground,” and do a very good job of it. Religious authors are going to be apologists in denial.

Anyway, it’s clear to see Islam’s attitude about women simply from the dress required. It is just as telling as a thong.

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Not really. My ex cried buckets when I left and it cost me $18,000 to divorce is possesive sorry ass. My other half shed more than one tear when we watched Ghost stating “Yes, love lives on.” I was bubbling with tears too.

The point is most men have been taught that they cannot cry and be a man. This is cultural not genetic. They were trained not to cry and be a man.

Physical, yes, not mental, it has been taught by culture for centuries. The Kung allowed equal distribution of power, presitige and wealth. Often, a brother and sister would rule a tribe. This is true in many ancient rural societies before the advent of monotheism as well. The Chalice and the Blade is very insightful. Both ruling men and women were buried with equal ceremony. (Not true for Egyptians and other groups) But often women were valued for intelligence and their ability to give live. Also, in the hunter gatherers, women provide the bulk of the tribe’s diet, hence they were very valued.

Yes, continue to do so.

Actually, yes, but I will have to return to your answers. If you live in the West try to survive and think as an equal, or you may sink. This is my opinion.

Smiles,

A Feminist who enjoy equality and respect from my significant other as I am a major contributor to the household.

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aspacia,

I must say that you know men.

I cried during Batman! I thought that is was sweet how the Fantastic Four obviously love each other.

I just saw Million Dollar Baby. I got a tear.

However, I have always been moved by the actions of people going out of their way to help others (thus the action movie crying).

In my own life I have been moved by insane amounts of passion to help people in trouble. I get crazy over it! Look back on me when I was young and whatever the word for triple crazy is then that’s what I was.

A guy that is in love or worse yet, broken hearted, is an emotional whirlwind.

I could sit here and write examples all night long.

It has long (not that long) been a suspicion of mine that women are actually more rational that men in a certain way. Many women seem to have this kind of practicality that I like and at times dislike intensely. So, it is my suspicion that ancient man started to dominate women as a means to avoid being dominated by women.

In fact, I predict that women will almost totally dominate the majority of professions in the United States in a few decades. However, this will be at the expense of the sloppy lazy sort of brilliance that a sloppy lazy lugubrious male can achieve.

I’m almost becoming an inverted misogynist!

Anyway, men beat women hands down for emotional high jinks.

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Hum, so the woman is not a companion? Instead she is a brood mare?
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While the students were working on a reading comprehension exercise I reviewed the previous links. Hum, I may have overlooked it, as I could not find it. Also, AD is not insightful. I will recheck the links for your insights.

Hum, then the translators need to be taken to task.

There are many problems with this as many husbands will consider leaving the home without permission disrespect and will beat their wives. How about, when a man disobeys a woman asking to bath or shower before bed?? How about if a many disobeys Islam and the woman complains?? How about when a man i ungrateful toward his wonderful, caring wife? Food for thought.

Men become emotionally disturbed and lie too. I addressed this in another post.

Hum, I believe I asked regarding an omnicienct being erring regarding 50 daily prayers. All knowing beings do not err.

:smiley: Good luck with your internship.

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If you wish me to not participate in your thread, don’t reference me or speak of me.

Surah 4:15 “If any of your women commit indecency, then call four of you to witness against the, and if they testify, then detain the women in their houses until death visits them, or God appoints for them a way”

noetician:

.

Aspacia:

This is the post I made that is uninsightful to you. From the War on Terror thread, Rant House, responding to Adlerian.

Volume 8, Book 82, Number 825:
Narrated Abdullah bin Umar:

The jews came to Allah’s Apostle and mentioned to him that a man and a lady among them had committed illegal sexual intercourse. Allah’s Apostle said to them, “What do you find in the Torah regarding the Rajam?” They replied, “We only disgrace and flog them with stripes.” 'Abdullah bin Salam said to them, ‘You have told a lie the penalty of Rajam is in the Torah.’ They brought the Torah and opened it. One of them put his hand over the verse of the Rajam and read what was before and after it. Abdullah bin Salam said to him, “Lift up your hand.” Where he lifted it there appeared the verse of the Rajam. So they said, “O Muhammad! He has said the truth, the verse of the Rajam is in it (Torah).” Then Allah’s Apostle ordered that the two persons (guilty of illegal sexual intercourse) be stoned to death, and so they were stoned, and I saw the man bending over the woman so as to protect her from the stones.

First, I will point out that you have not met any of the guidelines I proposed and you agreed to. You did not cite the narrator or its authenticity rating. But I will do it for you and give you the privelege of continuing this debate although you began it with breach of our guidelines. Imam Bukhari is considered a reliable narrator. The hadith above is narrated by Imam Bukhari. He is generally considered reliable. He however compliled about 300,000 hadiths and many scholars have reservations as to taking all as true. It is to be noted that, in nature, the hadiths are debatable, and are basically hearsay. If you want to challenge Islam and really talk about Islam, let’s talk about the Qur’an. The Qur’an is unchanged in its original Arabic. Hadiths are important but all know that they are mere oral and written recordings of events and/or words heard/witnessed by people. Hadiths are therefore sunna whereas the Qur’an’s commands are fard. Fard is obligatory and sunna is to take a tradition which is encouraged, not mandatory. Hence men wearing beards because Mohammad did. Again, there are conflicting translations and NO hadith is taken as an ayah in the Qur’an is. The Qur’an is the stone authority in Islam while hadith is supplementary information which generated much debate, doubt and is responsible at least in part for many of the schisms in Islam. This is important to know.

But let us assume the hadith is true. For sake of this debate, I will give the opponent the benefit. Adultery is punishable by death in Islam. The requirements for a conviction are very challenging however. “And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors;” (The Holy Qur’an, Sura 24, 003, Sura al Noor-the light) Needless to say, proving a womans guilt is difficult. Islam offers a great protection to women in this respect. Further, accusers are punished who present an accusation with insufficient evidence. This is a deterrent for false accusations and draws serious charges from citizens of society. As for the specific event in the hadith above, like I said, the debate on each hadith continues. The Shi’i school of thought rejects any Hadith from the sunni tradition altogether and have their own compilations. But if the offender was proven guilty, by law, receiving the death penalty is in order according to Sharia. This applies to men as well. For all to be aware of however, the practice of stoning to death was taken from the Jews who used this practice long before Islam. In the event cited in this hadith, Mohammad seems to execute Jewish law for a jewish offender. See Deuteronomy 13:6-11; 17:7. This Bible citation supplements historical fact. Islam, in case you are not aware, came into existence long after Judaism and Christianity (7th century).

Hopefully this is somewhat related to what you took issue with and hopefully gives you a little insight.

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Adlerian wrote:

I agree, a healthy dose of skepticism is good, when reading any text. But in your response, lumping all “religious authors” as “apologists” moves from healthy skepticism to a flat-out cynical point of view.

Barlas is an academic, and she admits her own bias. Further, what women in religion face is quite a different challenge than what male apologists have been doing for centuries. Male apologists have primarily been focused on explaining why their particular tradition is better than other systems of belief. In contrast, religious women in all traditions must examine whether or not the tradition is viable and salvageable for them. For example, is the tradition too steeped in misogyny so they have no option but to leave the tradition? Or can the roots of the religion be “reclaimed”? Barlas, like women in Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, and Buddhism, is trying to get her community (fellow Muslims in this case) to re-examine the sacred text/s and traditions and hopefully come to more egalitarian perspectives. That is why her text is subtitled “unreading patriarchal interpretations.” She is a believing woman, trying to restore what she sees as vital in her religion (to fellow members of the community). She isn’t just defending it to non-Muslims.
She is also engaged in criticism of what she thinks needs radical change.

Ultimately, one should still read the text looking for unacknowledged bias, but one should also give the author a fair chance to explain him or herself.

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That’s an amusing response, but do you think that any religious author has ever reached the conclusion of their book and then suddenly concluded that they find their religion invalid and become an atheist or decide to practice another religion? I don’t think so.

A rational person must conclude that religion is either a shame or a misunderstanding. Thus, the practices, traditions, and beliefs of every single religion are based on a false premise. An objective scientifically minded person would have to conclude this (please don‘t ask me why as you should be able to figure it out).

So, religious authors can’t ever get to this point because in doing so they would no longer be faithful to their religion. They must embrace the illogical and defend their invalid religion’s tenants on some level. So, they end up an apologist or worse. Thus, their work is not unlike that written by a psychotic or a hardcore Dungeons and Dragons fan.

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Of course if Muslims live in the West, they should abide by the law of the land. It’s not hard to do that in accordance with Islam, as secular laws do not usually force people to do something un-Islamic.

I have copied & pasted what I wrote in the war on terror thread:

It’s not discrimination. It’s ensuring your family is raised according to the religion.

Married couples should enjoy sex and Islam has no notion otherwise. It simply prohibits sex during the woman’s menstrual cycle. This doesn’t mean it has any apparent effects during the act. Muslims take this as an indication that it has effects (that may not be readily apparent) that are harmful or unhealthy (e.g. blood is a good medium for infectious agents to flow in; there may be harm in blood flowing backward from uterus into fallopian tubes; etc).

No…the verses speaks of the importance of a woman for her husband (as a wife) and her children (as a mother).

AD just posted it…I think his answer is pretty insightful.

Men also have the responsibility to respect their wives. I was speaking about women respecting their husbands because that’s what the hadiths were about. The relationship of respect must be mutual

Sorry, I misunderstood you. The story of the dialogue between Mohammad and Moses is more of an allegory than anything. If the dialogue occurred, its purpose is to show the people that 5/day is nothing (yet it is still regarded by many as an undue burden). It is to encourage people to pray extra prayers and take the 5 they have seriously.

Have a good one :slight_smile:

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Aspacia:

noetician:

Noetician, how about responding to the part characterizing Muslims as “guests” in America? Many Muslims here are citizens, not guests. This is their home, equally as it is your home Aspacia.

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Aspacia:

noetician:

Noetician, how about responding to the part characterizing Muslims as “guests” in America? Many Muslims here are citizens, not guests. This is their home, equally as it is your home Aspacia.

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I agree adlerian, I can’t help myself during the scene in gladiator when he holds his dead wives and sons feet.

Yeah and looking at the general crime population there are more men than women that kill in passion and lie for passion.

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:smiley: Control, insecurity, disenfranchisement, similar to what occured during the suffragette movement.

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Do not tell me what to do.

Aspacia:

As long as you refrain from personal attacks I will do the same.

You set the guidelines then refer to them as our? Also, I do not believe this was directed to me. Privilege? :wink: Try not to be so proud, I mean most do not say I will give you the privilidge of speaking to another.

Hum, to a monogamous, secularist this is primitive, especially since a man can have four wives and concubines. This leaves only the woman to be nailed for adultery. Think about it.

Yes, it did, and the insight reflects poorly upon Islam. Okay four witnesses to nail a woman, but a many can have wives and concubines. Also, why is this not enforced. Recently, a woman raped by her step-father was declared unclean and ordered to divorce her husband and give up custody of her children. Nothing happened to the step-father. What I see is misogyny and stoning and little enforcement of the laws protecting women.

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We all have our cultural biases.

Great Noos, very interesting.

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Perhaps not a religious author, but many religious individuals turn to other faiths or turn agnostic, atheist, deist, etc. Maji came to many similar conclusions regarding the necessity of Islamic reform. She is still Muslim, but rejects much of the restrictions in this faith, especially since she is a lesbian.

Please do not use absolutes, “must, should.”

Isn’t this scientific rejectionism of religion a bit similar to a religious person rejecting science? There are shades of gray.

No, many religions accept the big bang theory and evolution. Many theologians believe that the Bible may have facts, but also parables and the tenets should not be taken literally. Hence, the evolution of Christian and Judaism into secularism and tolerance. :wink:

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You too! :wink:

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Yes, but many are not citizens. Again, my dentist is Muslim.

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I have read many a venerable quote from Mohamed. Mostly these have to do with being generous to people. Perhaps he meant “his” people but if one generalizes his statements to the human race then the ideas are good. The ideas about women and sex are totally outdated though and are clearly wrong, as in incorrect.

Some believe that the word outdated might refer to morals and values, but what I’m talking about is information that is not accurate. Yesterday we discovered ideas about women as witnesses, emotional stability, and today it’s sexual function. All of these concepts are totally erroneous.

It was good of the men on the thread to admit to their own emotionality and as I reflect on many ideas that I have read about Islam it seems that some of the negative aspects were created to avoid fear. There seems to be a lot of fear of women, fear of outsiders, fear of the destruction of the family unit, and so forth. It is possible that male emotions, and the discomfort that they cause, generated a lot of the absolute statements in the religion.

Whatever the cause, there is friction between what Muslims believe about people and what westerners believe about people. Here we are with educated Muslims discussing concepts about people that were already starting to get pushed aside in the 19th century from a European standard.

I see this as both creating a lot of conflict for various groups and spelling the doom for Islam as most people know it. Islam can never hope to have the rest of the world unlearn human rights and knowledge that is a given for most people living in the west.

Also, the idea about people from other cultures living in say, the United States, as guests is not such a bad one. First if you are a guest then you should act like one. Secondly, and this has always puzzled me, if you are going to move to a new country then why wouldn’t you be excited about living in that country? It seems like many people move to the USA as if it was an extension of their old country. Clearly the old country was not working for you so why not get involved in the culture of the country that would have a person like you? It’s interesting that the USA and many other Euro countries welcome people with few conditions. Just sharing some thoughts here.