ok first off I read the little article about the prophecy issue. it deals with one passage of scripture. so what? that’s not the only Isaiah passage to deal with Jesus, and it’s not just about His birth. Isaiah 53 gives reference to His death, there’s one in I Samuel, not sure exactly where, but I’ve seen it before. Also, these are in the OLD Testament, written before the NEW Testament. These prophecies were from people who lived hundreds of years before Jesus.
About you writing a history of the US like that, no I wouldn’t, because that idea is completely ridiculous - however, the Bible was written with something that makes perfect sense to the millions of Christians all over the world. The birth, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Somehow you think that that many people are simply mistaken. Bullcrap. I would say good luck to you on that one, but it would be a waste.
ok first off, CALM DOWN. no need to get so friggin upset. just please try and keep your calm, and it will be a lot easier for us to get along. that’s elementary, didn’t think I would have to tell anyone that, but so be it.
anyway, I have to agree with Ned Flanders on the nonsense that you claim to be logic. and besides, if you took logic in college, you should know that atheism, in its literal sense, is a logical fallacy.
on that Christians are stupid - yes and no. yes, a lot of times, more than most, generally, modern Christians do not use their brains. no, I am not stupid, in any sense of the word. just because we frustrate you with our so called stupidity does not make us stupid - it just means you’re over - reacting.
oh, and I know you’re not biting your “tounge” lol. but seriously, neither am I. but at least try to keep your composure next time. thanks.
The other article addresses many more of the prophecy claims. There’s a lot out there about the context of these supposed prophecies, if you’d like to argue from them I suggest you do a little research. I’ve given you a starting point but I’m not going to do it all for you.
Honestly – you should know how poor an argument this is. In fact I’d like to see you refute it for me. If you seriously can’t I have no reason to continue this discussion, since obviously you’ll trot out any ‘bullcrap’ that seems to favor Christianity. Using bad arguments to convert is little better than the conquests and forced conversions that Christianity has favored in the past.
Well…gonna have to disagree with you on this one. You don’t seem to know much about the violence in Africa at the moment do ya? Granted, of course, the individual is responsible for the pain it inflicts on others. But, the majority of the conflict in Africa is due to imperilism from Europe and religion from Europe. When man obtains the idea of religions such as Islam, Judaism and Christianity they often seperate themselves from their fellow man. This creates a space for apathy and self-righteousness. This is what is going on with the majority of Africa. They view fellow man as not part of their religious , ethnic, tribal circle and in doing so kill, maim and torture them.
Either way this does not explain what kind of being would allow the rape, maiming and murder of innocents. And OH so many have died in his name.
So, what makes the Bible so much better than the sutras, Vedas, Torah, Qu’ran, or even just mysticism? And what happens if you have been studying the wrong subject and exam day comes and you ultimately fail? This is what I strive for people to see. You cannot know! Bottom line.
Sure we have, Mary was no virgin, the world hasn’t flooded, creationism is not plausible, Universe was not made in 7 days. Well…I think maybe we have proven some things wrong. And there are many others which I am not aware of. Until you know the truth, don’t claim to be alligned with it.
Best statement you have made. I am fine with subjective beliefs as long as they carry no notion of self-righteousness. We simply cannot know we are right until the end. I commend this statement as your personal reasoning.
You believe God gave man free will that is fine. But in regards to evil, nature is full of evil at least in the sense of the Biblical morality. Dolphins and throves of other animals commit acts of homosexuality, animals kill for pleasure or for selfish gain. So is evil simply a option of free-will or is it just a derision of Biblical morality?
How do you know this? Because the bible says so? Unless you have met God you should not be making assertions as to what he “says” is ok or not.
So, the innocents who are killed everyday should just be like “Oh, man I deserve this cause God wills it so.” I find this idea oddly disturbing that a being who is “perfect” would be so “imperfect” as to punishing. Punishing is done to curb certain behaviors. So what behaviors are done by a child who has lost limbs and the entirety of its family before it can even create true cognitive power?
Exactly.
Ok…so because it has some proven ideas we should just believe in it? Let’s take this idealogy and apply it to other things. “Man, I love Michael Moore movies they have like 3 things which are true so the whole movie is correct.” See the flaw in logic here? I hope so.
Scroll up to the small 2 second list I made of things proven wrong in the Bible.
Simply silly idea. The more people that believe is means that they can 't be wrong? I don’t even know how you could rationalize this…ok.
Imagine you see a movie, you sit through it and hate it. Now, everyone and anyone likes this movie but about…20% of the world. Yet it still breaks box-office records etc. You die. God, Buddha, Bhrama, Yaeweh, Zeus, whoever says the movie is horrible. The people who liked the movie are doomed to suffer for eternity. Those who didn’t like it revel in pleasure for eternity. So, the more people that like something does not make it wholly true.
Confused by this, are you referring to the idea of God existing makes it a fallacy? Because an atheist says the word God makes an athiest a thiest because of a word? If so, that is such a bad position. Rhetoric aside athiest is a word which has its deep roots and should not be taken literally . And this would only make it a fallacy if you weren’t of the dualist sorts.
Once again I am just stating that you know nothing of the truth until the end. I admit I may be wrong willingly. So please, less arrogance in believing you know the answers because you have read a book.
Omg…I figured some of you we’re smarter than some of the comments you’ve made.
GOD GIVES FREE WILL. “FREE WILL” —>FREE WILL<—
Because of this free will we can make our own decisions. If you don’t want to accept God, DON’T. That’s your choice to die and recieve hell as your punishment, It wouldn’t be love for God to force you to accept him if you don’t want him.
None of us no God’s plan entirely…we can debate that all day. But for those who think suffering is an excuse for God not to exist, use your brain, God did give you that.
What Astral said was right…He’s not “beating around the bush” and whether he’s a Christian or not, he’s giving the “facts”.
Show me someone who isn’t a follower of Christ telling these truths about the bible…That would be a sight to see, and someone who does that I’d be glad to hear what they have to say against God.
Prove it. All this doom and gloom and can you show me that humans don’t simply turn off like machines when we die? Or that we enter the life stream to be reborn again? Until then you automatically are making mass assumptions w/o logical proof.
Ok I agree, if there is a God we don’t know his plan. BUT what I have found its that the suffering upon others makes no sense logically. My brain; which you believe God gave me, is a tool for survival, adapted over million of years to rationalize and problem solve so as I may survive. And I am using it. What sense does it make to believe that there is a giant man looking over us and “caring” for us when he/she/it could be doing so much greater things? That sounds highly askewed from brain useage my friend.
His “facts” are subjective, therefore they are not real facts.
Once again you don’t truely know. You may feel you do but you don’t. Neither do I. Go on believing what you want but you should accept you may be wrong in the end.
sorry i didn’t mean to sound so snide in that one. my bad. no i wouldn’t intentionally be that biased, but you have to understand that Christianity isn’t the only religion to claim to be the only way. an Islamic friend of mine told me that he thought i was going to hell if I wasn’t a Muslim. but anyway, yeah sorry.
This means nothing, and is worse than comparing apples to oranges.
Just to let you know that article(first one) you presented is twisted and is intentionally lying. They are trying to call into question the meaning of a word. While it is true that the word ‘MIGHT’ not necessarily imply that a girl is a virgin but the context in which it was used in the passages do in fact mean that that word means Virgin in the way of not being known unto a man. God is pretty big on a females having known the touch of a ‘single’ man through marriage and keeping with that until death, then is the female allowed to remarry. I think that its very safe to say this particular female was not married prior as with dealing with those cultures would have been of supreme importance and certainly would have been mentioned in the story. These people did not live as we do running around having sex with everything that moved, thinking nothing of it!
So case in point that article is a load horse hockey that is easily dispelled if you will just read the WHOLE chapter (in the bible) without verse hopping. then you will understand the story and meaning behind it all. This so called link of yours is an intentional missleading in hopes someone like me would not come along and see right through it. Remember that whole goofy article relies on casting doubt on wether or not that words usage is to mean virgin. Just by reading the story and KNOWING the culture, ‘Virgin’ is what it meant, this is hardly disputable.
On the second link you provided. The person is trying to apply their rules regarding prophecy. If I got to apply rules and conditions on prophecies myself then I can make anything I want out of any prophecy as well myself. I will list the rule.
(1) the claimant of a prophecy fulfillment is properly interpreting whatever text he is basing his claim on,
this also requires that the tester of the Prophecy be required to understand it as well. And the Bible directly states that those who do not follow God will have the Wisdom required to understand them withheld. While initially this phrase looks to be a cop out there is a reason for this. God has always been big on only giving truth to those whom seek it, and always withholds wisdom from those who do not seek it. Why? Because its a great way to keep the liars from obtaining High quality knowledge that can be use to subvert a loyal yet new and begining truth seeker. This is to help keep the obvious idiots apart from those who really are wise. Satan is a most deadly foe because he has obtained much wisdom, and uses his wisdom to create very crafty lies based partly on the truth so that he can butter up a fat lie to make it much easier to swallow.
So if the tester cannot properly test the theory due to being withheld they are automatically disqualified to test the theory. In MOST cases only a member of the Christian Religion will be able to understand the prophecies written in the bible. There are alwasy exceptions regarding who God will give wisdom too, and this includes those who are not followers. Another thing that makes this even worse is the fact that most Christians do not really follow God and therefore are not even qualified to test Prophecy either!
(2) the prophecy was made before and not after the event that allegedly fulfills the prophecy,
One has to admit this is obvously a requirement. If anything is told after the fact it is only history and not prophecy in the least
(3) the prophecy was made not just before an event but far enough in advance of it to make educated guesswork impossible, and
While this would seem evident this in no way means that God has to be limited to creating prophecy based on some goofy time line established by a man. However this can still have some merit so long as this rule is not taken advantage of. The requirement that educated guess work to be impossible is horse hockey. God has long since been giving people the ability to make educated guess work plausible for a long time and still does. We just like to call these guys looney and lock them away because we are too stupid to understand it.
(4) the event that allegedly fulfilled the prophecy did in fact happen.
This is always the kicker. And I will show how crazy this gets.
There is a prophecy that says Person A falls off a building. But when history records it the Person B gets charged with the offense. In truth Person A did in fact fall off the building without any help from person B but now the historical account is muddled by accusation. Now one would ask what is the point in such a prophecy that God would allow to be intentionally messed up by human lies or mistaken untruth? Well this goes to many things. #1 people make mistakes and sometimes God will only allow the understanding of a phrophecy to only certain people for certain reasons. #2 there are forces that seek to turn us away from God and will offer up enough of the truth of things so that they can cause confusion on the introduction of a lie mixed with truth. i would say that point #2 is primarily responsible for MOST of the confusion with current phrophecy as it is happing now… If I told you that we are already into the book of Revelations you would call me insane. I say to you that we are INDEED into it, and 5 of the 7 trumpets have sounded. But because prophecy has been mass messed up peopel no longer know what to believe. This is all very intentional. God will only hand the truth to those who seek and most do not care.
Ok I have ran on long enough so I will show you the problem with one of the questions or prophesies put to the test that was mentioned. Micah 5:2. The problem with this test is the This prophecy has still yet to pass. But the person making the test does not know it. This phrophecy is not fortelling of Christs Birth. This prophecy is actually a part of Revelations, the 7th Trumpet and the Coming of Christ. Talk about completely abusing a couple of passages. Now you get why none of these challanges to the Prophecies are ever taken seriously. You can tell here already that the tester didnt even understand any part of the context in which this prophecy speaks. Therefore this test is invalid from the get go!
I do not have time to review the other so I will move on.
Hosea. You can do the short thing and start in Chapter 5. The short story is that this is the punishment of the Jews for rejecting Christ as Messiah and starting at Hosea 6:1 they are supposed to come to their senses and accept Christ. Just so you know that this is one of the split and reversed prophecies. In order to understand it you need to play connect the dots. You really need to be a student of prophecy to fully understand it. I am a student but I still have trouble myself, but I do see the connections well enough to take this seriously.
You can also see some unique cross ties being with Christ returning on the 3rd day. If this is to be correct the end of the world is within a generation as you now see it. Do remember, generations in the bible are mentioned from 20 to 100 years. So this does not mean all of us here will see the end, but some might.
The other nifty thing is the Christ will rule 1000 years or 1 day as this particular prophecy goes, and then Satan will be let loose a little season and Gog and MaGog will be gathered for battle.
Like I said… this is a very multi-faceted Prophecy. You have just been given a very unique prophecy that is barely known.
Its already proven in your heart. It has been already proven in all people hearts. If it was not then God could not judge you on your day for rejecting Him. You have to be willing to seek the truth to know this proof better.
Once again, you keep taking the blame from other humans and saying its God fault for suffering. If funny because on the other side I dont seem to see you saying anything positive regarding God when Good things are happening. This alone proves you have a bias. Point in case you have something against God and you will point out everything that you think is wrong, but completely ignore anything that is perceived to be Good about Him.
Untill you can step away from this ‘in the corner’ logic it will be difficult for you to progress in this conversation.
Thats always a cop out. Facts are not subjective, that is a contrived straw man. Facts are absolutes, and there is anything wrong in a fact then it is all a lie. So why dont you belly up grow a pair and call me wrong instead. Why dont you? So you can step off like a chicken and have no worries of proof against me, thats why you wont.
The invention of truth as a relativism is the last defence you have against anything. And what you fail to understand under the tenets of relative truths is that there is no such thing as wrong, or a lie! But then again that is also apart of the apeal of relativism. You get to lie all day long and call it truth while not feeling ashamed about it. Shameless.
A perfect being doesn’t need to act. Doesn’t have to. Acting is done out of necessity. By creating, or acting, it means god was lacking something, therefore God is not omnipotent.
What example of perfection are YOU using? Either you think you’re perfect, therefore you know what perfection must be, or you know someone who is perfect.
If science is based on observable events, etc, like many of you say it is, then you just made a mistake. If you don’t have any example of perfection, how can you tell what it is or isn’t? Who are we, that we should oppose perfection and tell it (in this case, Him) that it’s wrong?
OK…so you think you know my heart? You don’t even know me. My heart admits ignorance in regard to reality. There is no absolutes for me. Nor you. You only trust your feelings and your book. Also the majority of the world cannot agree on which God is the right one. So how is it proven when there is still a struggle for it?
I seek the truth daily. Once again you are being assumptive by pretending you know anything about me. I open up to admittance that the Christian God may be the right one. Or maybe Allah, or Buddha and so on and so on. The search for the truth should never end. So in reality to me it seems you have stopped seeking the truth since you have settled.
Once again, you are jumping to conclusions w/o reading my other posts I clearly stated that it is man’s fault I was simply pointing out that logically it makes no sense for mankind to be able to do such things. It carries no mastermind plan in it. Sure I do have good things to say when good things happen. I am thankful for everything I have and all the things life has given me. But does that mean that God gave it to me? Nope. I don’t know. Also, the focus is not on the good things because people are so quick to forget those. So I choose to point to negative facets of life. Thanks for thinking you know anything about me from an online forum tho
Nope. The point in case is fellow man does not remember the good as readily as the bad which is why I use it. To make a statement it is best to hit people in the heart and mind. That way it shall scar their thoughts which never allows them to forget it. No where did I say good things don’t happen to people.
I am in no corner my friend. I am still in the center of the room admitting ignorance. I am simply questioning whilst you sit in your corner and read your book. If you are so intent upon me asking about the good things then how about this. If God is so good, why must we even be here? Is it a reward? Is testing us a sign of a virtueous being? And why do we deserve good things while others deserve bad things?
I must say this…learn to reading comprehend. Notice the quotations around “facts”? This shows a contrived skepticism of your “facts” meaning they are not logically proven. I discredited you in saying they are not real facts because they cannot stand through a logical proof.
I did…and I did it again. Hell how about one more time. Astral, you are forever wrong.
I did not step off like a chicken I was being moderatly respectful since I choose to have a bit of tact in life, unlike you apprently. Now, what proof is this that you are asking for? The one where I have pointed out where the Bible is wrong? Or, that you are a silly little man and have no proof that you are right and refuse to admit so?
Truth is something none of us can have until the end. It is relative when we are alive because it cannot be fully proven. It is not my last defense it is the only plausible one. For your sake I will explain this to you. You study the Bible. It is one of hundreds maybe thousands of religious texts in the world. You say you know the truth. So do a billion or so others. Who is right? We don’t know. What aspect of your, mine, and everyone else’s ignorance do you not comprehend?
How am I lying? By admitting ignorance and disproving your ideas of what you know as “facts”? If anything you are lying to yourself in believing you are on the sole path to anything. I feel know shame in admitting I maybe wrong.
In closing I would just like to say this. We as humans know nothing. We can think we do but in reality we can’t until we know death. So, seek your path, don’t verbally abuse other’s paths (Astral), and don’t profess your path to be the only one.
Hypocritical to the extreme is what you post looks like. The first thing you ask me is if I think I know YOUR heart. Then you think your right to tell me what I think and feel? You have quite the double standard there buddy.
More hypocrisy. You say I am being assumptive and pretending that I know anything about you while you tell me that I have stopped seeking truth obviously being just as assumptive about me.
You think you have a right to tell other people what they are thinking yet they do not have a right to say what you are. You have some serious issues you need to work out with your hypocrisy.
I appears I am no less presumptive about you as you are me. I call it like I see it, and that does include the possiblity of errors for I am not perfect but you apparently think yourself to be above others. You should keep that ego in large check.
I am willing to allow you that one, but if you fail to mention it in some regards you are allowing others to take it out of context. Next time offer up some form of caveat regarding such comments so you are not taken out of context. If you focus on nothing but the bad then guess what… that will be the focus of the subject!
But to further help you understand something. In order for God to allow a being to do good unto another the ability to commit evil just comes with it. God gave us free will. So there are no controls, and to get mad about that is being very childish in mind about it.
If you can only admit ignorance than you have nothing to stand on in opposition to me. You must at least recognize that you do have some knowledge, at least enough to believe you can challange me.
About why we are here? Then I would ask why you do nothing more than eat, drink, expell waste and sleep. I would say that God was looking for a bit more out of life than to sit and stare out into a dark cosmos that has nothing in it. This is not to say that we are God’s personal sitcom to entertain Him, but to say that God decided to set about work and make more out of His own life and create ours!
You do the same thing… why? Because there is a very unique property in all of us that was given to us when God put a part of His spirit into us. We have desire to create!
After this creation God decided that once we ate of the tree of Knowledge we will then need to be tested on virtue before He would allow us to have eternal life.
The meaning of deserves means nothing in this context. God simply gives unto others according to their works. This has never been a secret, and mentioned much in the bible. The USA is primarily a Christianly bases nation, not so much now as in the past, but look what happened to this Nation, because of that base we where blessed by God more than other nations and we were increased! Now we are getting less because we are stepping farther and farther away from God.
Based on whos logic? Logic is just as different for each person as taste preferences. A person could logically deny that gravity exists… just because you dissagree with that logic does not mean he did not logically deduce that! Your logic does not match mine. It is just different! What is logically proven to you, may be logically dissproven to me!
How can anyone who has already admitted to being ignorant know that I am wrong? More hypocrisy.
I admit I am not a PC guy. I dont like wadding through puddles of fecal matter like you do.
I have already given the answers against your previous posts regarding the bible. It was plain to see that your examples are blatant lies, completely dispelled if people will just stop and “ACTUALLY” read the chapters in question!
Then you will remain forever lost, and I cannot help you. It is not possible to help anyone that refuses to even help themselves!
More hypocrisy. You are right and I am wrong, but the trick here is that I dont have the right under your rules to say I am right.
It is fine for you to abuse my path but not fine for me to abuse yours.
My path is the only one, you just dont like it, but it will never change the truth.
Mankind can hardly stand its own iniquity so therefore it turns its face away from God, and makes up all manner of excuses to justify it! I cannot stop you, I can only pray that you realize it.
Christianthinker quote - an Islamic friend of mine…
He can’t have been a muslim mate because their “holy” book instructs them -
[Koran 5.51] “O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends, they are friends of each other, and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people”
He’d better hope his Imam doesn’t find out he’s mates with you or his poor head’ll be rolling down the street in no time…
I clearly stated that it is man’s fault I was simply pointing out that logically it makes no sense for mankind to be able to do such things. It carries no mastermind plan in it. Sure I do have good things to say when good things happen. I am thankful for everything I have and all the things life has given me. But does that mean that God gave it to me? Nope. I don’t know. Also, the focus is not on the good things because people are so quick to forget those. So I choose to point to negative facets of life. Thanks for thinking you know anything about me from an online forum tho 