I can’t follow the science, and don’t know about the cesspool, but I’m with James on the koolaid. The most interesting thing about the Higgs to me is how apparently literally everybody celebrates the latest offering from those who brought us nuclear weapons. It’s one of the best examples of blind group think we’ve seen in awhile.
Which is why I initially showed interest and support. 
The women around me actually rushed to tell me the news expecting for me to be elated, having no idea of what a Higgs boson is.
As often occurs, I had to disappoint their misguided joy.
Real hope is not what you will find on TV for a long time coming.
If anyone is interested, go to YouTube and type in Higgs Boson. There are several very interesting clips that explain the function of the Higgs Field, as well as both pro and con discussions about the ‘discovery’ of the Higgs Boson and what it means. I suggest that everyone read, watch, and share what they can find so everyone starts on the same page.
Here’s my bottom line on it: the standard model predicted the presence of a higgs boson. The LHC has produced a “footprint,” evidence of this particle, just as predicted, to a standard deviation of 5 sigma, which is extremely high. Virtually all scientists agree that the higgs boson has indeed been found.
What this says about the Ultimate nature of reality can be debated by philosophy types. But what it says about the physical word as most of us define it, we have found some physical evidence (footprint) of something that we (our brainy brothers and sisters) deduced is there – something that took a lot of smart math and thinking. In terms of process at east, it’s a close cousin with Einstein imagining and calculating, and then confirming the validity of the theory of relativity.
like any investment, we should debate whether this one is worth it. the answer to that is not settled, and it’s really fertile territory for all kinds of debate.
it is interesting watching the reactions to this news. there are some here who seems to
think that because they can’t understand it,( higgs-boson) that it can’t possibly be important
and other think it is important even though they don’t understand it.
I think the real issue is not about the higgs-boson but about science. You see it here
even on a philosophy site. there are those who fail to understand the science behind our world
and fail to realise that science is what drives our modern world. every aspect of our world has science behind it, from
cars to computers to airplanes to medicine. every piece of technology started as science of some sort.
often the science was obscure and seemed to be pointless. an example of this is Einstein’s E= MC2 which at
the time of creation (1905) is said to have only ten people in the world understand it, (and eight of them in Germany)
this obscure science lead to atomic bomb 40 years later. today any first year physics student could build an atomic bomb.
I see something very important happening in people and society today. People are withdrawing from the world
and science is an example of this. People are afraid of science in a way they haven’t been afraid in hundreds of years and
they are rejecting and pulling back from science. the best example of this is the “tea party” movement
which has rejected every aspect of modern society. People are struggling to reconnect with an ideology, almost
any ideology. You see this in the war over science where people somehow blame science for their disconnect with
themselves. the rise of evangelical christianity is about people trying to reconnect with themselves with science becoming the
whipping boy for their fears. don’t look at the individual pieces, look at the whole and it becomes clear what has happened.
Higgs-boson is an important piece of science even if we don’t understand it. Not for today, but tomorrow when
its relevance becomes obvious.
Kropotkin
Agreed.
Agreed again. Higgs is just a current example case.
Perhaps they don’t fail to understand. Perhaps they understand that all of this is threatened by science itself.
Exactly. Hit the nail on the head. First only the big countries had the bomb. Then the medium sized ones. Now the smaller ones too.
How long until the Mexican drug cartels have the bomb? They have more than enough money, all they lack, for the moment, is the motivation.
I believe much of this can be traced back to a fundamental shift of consciousness that occurred when it finally dawned on the general public that all of civilization could be quickly erased. That it was actually literally possible.
In fact, in the case of the Cuban Missile Crisis, not just possible, but imminent. I lived in Florida at that time, we were staring down the barrel of the gun, sitting breathlessly on the edge of our seats, waiting for it to go off.
The hippy movement might have been the first big cultural reaction to emerge, happening almost immediately after the end of the Cuban Missile Crisis.
And so, let’s keep drinking the koolaid until it finally kills us. We are beautiful, but insane. Oh well… Nothing lasts forever.
You can’t see electricity. Can’t really see gravity either.
You can take this point of view : everything can be described as the interaction of subatomic particles. When you consider gravity or electricity, you are seeing something that the Higgs boson is at least partially doing.
I realized that, and I am relieved we managed to get to this point after all. I hope we can make more progress from now on.
Yes, you can take that point of view. You can take the point of view that everything is made of spirits, or of fractals.
The problem is that none of those views legitimately answers all of their own questions. They each try disparately to claim total, “holy”, understanding of all things. They each use inventive imaginings and literal “superstition” to stitch together the holes in their ontologies.
And they each fall short.
Realize that it is by merely the “footprint”, that they seek and often claim to have found “Big Foot”.
Wouldn’t it be worth billions of dollars to find THAT very relevant bit of evolution?
Finding a footprint is Not the same as finding a foot.
Exactly.
The Higgs boson footprint seems to be a set of conditions that is real, and required for the logic behind the standard model to make sense, but not for the standard model itself to represent reality, nor for its components to be actual existing entities.
Something was verified, but what exactly it is? As little as I know of this precisely, knowing something about logics and the ‘vessels’ (ideas) carried forth by them, I suspect that the context in which the discovery is useful has yet to come about.
You seem to accept certain subatomic particles and reject others. Nobody has actually seen electrons and protons. All that is seen is footprints. So the footprint of a Higgs boson is not as clear and sharply defined as the common electron footprint. That’s to be expected on the edge of discovery.
If spirit theory explained observations and made reliable predictions, then it would be legitimate science. The only reason to reject it would be the application of Occam’s razor - a simpler theory exists( or is developed) which produces the same results.
That isn’t true at all.
It was the acceptance of electrons that led them to imagine everything else also being particles… literally everything.
That is a typical human fallacy presumed throughout physics, “We have discovered the letter A. Now we can predict the entire alphabet.”
Quantum physics is FAR, FAR less “simple” than spirit theory.
And quantum physics has never predicted anything that it didn’t already measure. Everything “new” they “discovered”, they merely “indirectly” saw, from ‘footprints’ presumed to be from their Big Foot.
QM is a speculated ontology, “maybe the universe is like this….”
Such speculations are not necessary and certainly aren’t Science.
I mean just look at the “fundamentals”;
-
“we have positive and negative particles that attract each other and repel their own kind!”
…Why?
“That is just the way it is”
…but why?
“It is just fundamental” -
“there are these tiny little particles that carry glue-force to hold quarks together (they used to hold protons together)!”
…Emm… particles that carry force? What the hell does that even MEAN?!?
“That is just the way it works. We have ‘indirectly’ seen it.”
…So where did these particles come from?
“They are just fundamental.”
…emm… where does that force come from?
“It is just fundamental. We call it the ‘strong force’.”
…okay, so how does gravity work? -
“Particles carry the gravity force between masses and that makes them attract each other.”
…particles again? From where?
“They are just the fundamental makeup of the universe.”
…and the gravity force? Fundamental?
“Sure gravity is perhaps the most fundamental.”
…so you have fundamental fundamentals and regular fundamentals?
-
Dare I mention the “weak-force”…
…emm… is there anything that ISN’T just fundamental and unexplained?
“Oh, QM explains everything, ALL phenomena!”
{{quantum erasure}}
Hmm… so did Genesis… and with far fewer “fundamentals”.
James, what is it you’re really trying to say? I’ve read a lot of your posts and they all seem to be directed at how science doesn’t and cannot come up with the theory of everything. As a result, you seem to have taken on the laborious process of ‘proving’ how science is incorrect in many of its theories–including the latest theory of the Higg’s boson.
Are you a quantum physicist who disagrees with the current ‘findings’ of both CERN and the Fermi labs? Are you such a firm rationalist you can’t accept a ‘rational’ explanation other than your own? Are you a ‘theist’ who can’t accept that science–quantum science in all its forms–might take humanity closer to a non-phenomenological, scientifically provable, God theory?
Even so, the possible discovery of the God Particle, which comes from a book originally titled The Godamned Particle which the publisher didn’t think was pc and so it was changed into something physicists hate, does nothing other that fill out the Standard Model to include gravity and time.
What’s your big whoop, James?
“Stop making Science into just another a religion.”
It isn’t that they can’t. Hell, even I can. My issue is that they WON’T because they are so damn busy defending their lies, social ego, and pride issues. If they are going to do it, do it RIGHT and stop making up even more superstitious non-sense that merely keeps people in the darkness longer.
It all reminds me of the “Second LAW of Thermodynamics”. It was proven false from the very first day by Maxwell, yet for the last 130 years or so, they absolutely insist on it being a “LAW”. But if you look in Wiki today, after very many revisions of the “law”, it now merely says that it is a “tendency”. How is it a law if it is just a “tendency”? So what? As long as you don’t have a tendency to murder you aren’t breaking the law?
These are NOT sane people. They acquire worship and keep people bemused and distracted. They are no more than magicians using obfuscation to delay real Science. I happen to like the idea of real Science and I don’t like for it to be kept only for some group of secretive insane manipulators who insist on keeping everyone else confused with false hopes.
Quantum Mysticism is merely the modern sophisticated version of numerology. And exactly like numerology, if you try hard enough you can support your speculations concerning anything at all. It is irrational. And I am enough of a rationalist to dislike promoting irrationality into the public. It is an UNnecessary way to control the population.
That is my “big whoop”.
Lying to the public… still, but now even worse, under the name of Science. Hell even Einstein hated what they were doing to Science.
Obfuscation and deception is the adversary to EVERY eye and every life.
lizbethrose: James, what is it you’re really trying to say?
James s: : Stop making Science into just another a religion."
K: science into a religion? WOW. such ignorance. You don’t understand either science or religion.
the two have totally different functions and totally different goals. religion is argument from authority.
the authority knows best. science is, from WIKI:
science (from Latin scientia, meaning “knowledge”) is a systematic enterprise that builds
and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe."
It does not mention certainty which is the bread and butter of religion. there is no certainty in science, only
probability and chance. every aspect of science is subject to change. come up with a better theory and the last theory
goes away, partly or all of it.
lizbethrose: I’ve read a lot of your posts and they all seem to be directed at how science doesn’t and cannot come up with the theory of everything. As a result, you seem to have taken on the laborious process of ‘proving’ how science is incorrect in many of its theories–including the latest theory of the Higg’s boson."
J: It isn’t that they can’t. Hell, even I can. My issue is that they WON’T because they are so damn busy defending their lies, social ego, and pride issues. If they are going to do it, do it RIGHT and stop making up even more superstitious non-sense that merely keeps people in the darkness longer.
It all reminds me of the “Second LAW of Thermodynamics”. It was proven false from the very first day by Maxwell, yet for the last 130 years or so, they absolutely insist on it being a “LAW”. But if you look in Wiki today, after very many revisions of the “law”, it now merely says that it is a “tendency”. How is it a law if it is just a “tendency”? So what? As long as you don’t have a tendency to murder you aren’t breaking the law?
K: the second law of thermodynamics is false? How? a tendency is science, not certainty. evolution, gravity are not certainties. they are subject
to the same laws of science which says at this time in this location this is the best theory we have. if the evidence changes, so does the theory.
to my knowledge, the second law of thermodynamic still functions and functions quite well.
J: These are NOT sane people. They acquire worship and keep people bemused and distracted. They are no more than magicians using obfuscation to delay real Science. I happen to like the idea of real Science and I don’t like for it to be kept only for some group of secretive insane manipulators who insist on keeping everyone else confused with false hopes.
K: this is almost insane talk. who exactly are we talking about? don’t just say science or them, give us names, places, dates, evidence that
can be researched.
lizbethrose: Are you a quantum physicist who disagrees with the current ‘findings’ of both CERN and the Fermi labs? Are you such a firm rationalist you can’t accept a ‘rational’ explanation other than your own? Are you a ‘theist’ who can’t accept that science–quantum science in all its forms–might take humanity closer to a non-phenomenological, scientifically provable, God theory?
[/quote]
J: Quantum Mysticism is merely the modern sophisticated version of numerology. And exactly like numerology, if you try hard enough you can support your speculations concerning anything at all. It is irrational. And I am enough of a rationalist to dislike promoting irrationality into the public. It is an UNnecessary way to control the population.
K: are you referring to quantum physics? If so, then clearly you don’t understand it and are frighten by that. quantum physics by its very nature
is confusing. You have two different sets of laws for two different aspects of nature, the very small and the very large. the trick is to
somehow have a theory that explains both and we are slowly getting there and Higgs-boson is one small step there."
lizbethrose: Even so, the possible discovery of the God Particle, which comes from a book originally titled The Godamned Particle which the publisher didn’t think was pc and so it was changed into something physicists hate, does nothing other that fill out the Standard Model to include gravity and time."
What’s your big whoop, James?
[/quote]
J: That is my “big whoop”.
Lying to the public… still, but now even worse, under the name of Science. Hell even Einstein hated what they were doing to Science.
K: please give us evidence of this?
J: Obfuscation and deception is the adversary to EVERY eye and every life.:
K: my guess is you don’t understand science and think it is some attempt to confuse and deceive you.
My advice is get some education and learn something about science. start with math and go on from there.
Kropotkin
J: my guess is you don’t understand Christianity and think it is some attempt to confuse and deceive you.
My advice is get some salvation and study the Bible. start with Genesis and go on from there.
Get my point?
…I doubt it. 
K: my guess is you don’t understand science and think it is some attempt to confuse and deceive you.
My advice is get some education and learn something about science. start with math and go on from there.
[/quote]
J: my guess is you don’t understand Christianity and think it is some attempt to confuse and deceive you.
My advice is get some salvation and study the Bible. start with Genesis and go on from there.
k: I have studied most religions including christianity. I have read the bible multiple times as well as most
religious tracts. I am a atheist. the reason being because if you accept the reasons for believing religions then you might
as well accept flying pigs, a moon made of cheese, santa claus, easter bunny, any and all beliefs because you can’t separate
them because all they require is nothing more then faith, just like christianity. the only requirement for christianity is faith
and if faith is all I need, then any belief is good enough If I have faith in it. I might believe the moon is made of cheese, with
faith, it becomes true for me, regardless of the actual make up of the moon. reality becomes irrelevant if you hold faith
higher then reality whereas I hold reality higher then faith.
as you clearly know nothing and most importantly don’t know, you know nothing, I bid you a Socratic good day.
Kropotkin
As I suspected… didn’t get my point.
And you have made it clear to me that you understand neither religion nor science.
In Religion;
People report to you that someone has said and done a lot of things.
You don’t know that really happened, but you have faith in the reports.
The person suggested a theory saying that if you do X and Y, you’ll get Z.
You haven’t done it yourself, but it makes sense to you so you have faith that he is probably right.
They report that there have been witnesses to his demonstration.
You have never seen those witnesses, but you have faith that they existed.
You are a faithful believer.
In Science;
People report to you that someone has said and done a lot of things.
You don’t know that really happened, but you have faith in the reports.
The person suggested a theory saying that if you do X and Y, you’ll get Z.
You haven’t done it yourself, but it makes sense to you so you have faith that he is probably right.
They report that there have been witnesses to his demonstration.
You have never seen those witnesses, but you have faith that they existed.
You are a faithful believer.
See the difference?
Science was talking about the behavior of materials and has the state of technology to prove its case.
Religion was talking about the behavior of people and has the state of nations to prove its case.
But without the cooperative behavior of people, Religion, there would have been no Science.
Science is merely being used to take charge of peoples behavior, “son rising to murder his own father and take his possessions.”
If it affects what people believe, then by all means, use it to manipulate them. 
James, what do you think of the
idea that Science perfected
and Religion perfected arrive at
the same place?
The Truth.
Science = Truth = Religion
(ideally)
john