Because the steering mechanism is faulty, causing the depressive (at least in psychological disorders) to be more likely to take turns that are detrimental to their condition and ignore better ones, eventually leading in circles.
can psychoanalysis help a depressive person lead a less depressed life?
All mammals have and display emotions. They are displayed within the hard-wired parameters of social position and time as immediate. The former offers an animal certainty and security. The latter offers mental focus for immediate dangers.
Chimps, who share 97% of our human DNA, do not have our development of a large prefrontal cortex. That development gives our “minds” senses of insecurity and uncertainty. It may be the root cause of our depression and creativity. Check out animals in zoos to see depression as denial of feral expressions.
The pleasure/pain concept is from Freud.
My gut feeling is that it is a poor approach for depressed people. It takes an incredibly long time - I am speaking here of traditional Freudian psychoanalysis - and literally has the person lying down, mulling over their problems. Lying down, mulling over one’s problems is a habit not worth reinforcing in depressed people. I am sure it has worked for some, but I would lay money on it that it does less well that more actively dynamic talk therapies, CBTs and drug therapies.
Moreno,
I agree, but plead ignorance as to what CBTs are. Active one on one talk therapy has gotten me out of many maelstroms of depression, since for me at least depression appears to be a withdrawal into self and the talk therapy shows a wider range of possibilites. It’s a matter of being presuaded that I am not a victim and that my anger may be justified.
cognitive behavioral therapies - which can be considered talk therapies and certainly are when contrasted with drug approaches. Agree with the withdrawel into the self facet. I think depression is a loss of flow, a loss of flexibility and dynamism, and a kind of psyhoemotional isometric lockdown. Which is why things like exercise and dynamic talk therapies both work for some people.
i was not talking about freudian psychoanalysis which is flawed…i am talking about an educational experience where a person learns about their unique self…
Yes therapy can work, I am sure of it. But the problem is that it has to be done well. As Moreno says just recounting your life and where you went wrong isn’t helpful in itself. I have no idea how to cure a depressive who is inured to his depression, but CBT is definitely of use because it focuses on freeing the patient of cyclical thinking, ie the things that make them depressed, it tries to resolve paradoxes that the depressive think exists, to put his worries in an objective sense as well as then analysing the subjective case. I wouldn’t discount it. Long term depression, where the patient has been either untreated or treated badly by the field, is probably so tough to resolve that it becomes impossible to define a good strategy CBT or otherwise, without experiment. A decent psychologist if he hasn’t gone mad by the time he reaches 40 does not offer salvation, but acts as a springboard, suggesting things that might help, that the patient might want to consider, offering successes and failures in other cases. I think most psychologists experience a great deal of failure, I think you have to be extremely mentally strong to begin with to even have a chance of doing well. Undoubtedly this field though is much more art than science.
I’m not talking about the cycle of thinking and rethinking about what depresses a depressive. I’m talking about the depressive who can be filled with joie de vivre one day, and not want to get up the next. That depression has many starting points but always one end point–depression. The energy that was there yesterday has disappeared–vanished into somewhere–the ether? Who knows?
I’ve gone through group therapy, one-on-one talk therapy, therapy by both psychiatrists and psychologists. Only one thing has taken the edge off the depression–drugs. Even then, the drug often only takes the edge off and makes me easier to live with. I no longer respond to tension with anger and lashing out. But I still react to tension–with intensity. Sometimes that intensity overrides the electro- mechanical brain implants I have to control tremor and I start shaking all over.
So, for me, there are lots of roads that lead to one destination.
“Unique self”–that cuts both ways. In my worst episodes there appears to be a total disconnect between myself and what is Other. Loneliness looks though a singular set of eyes in horror at the me-ness of my existence. I’ll retell the old joke–“You’re unique, just like everyone else!”
could you say a little more about what you mean. I almost responded as if I understood what this meant, but then realize it could mean many things. What does this process look like? What does the person do? If you can be concrete, great.
my psychoanalyst and i are going through a long educational process learning about the nature of me…
he(i’d rather have a she) is the teacher and i am the student…i needed this…the short term therapies were not touching some of the problems…i am leery of the quick fixes readily available on the market…
I find this characterization, even for “depression” in general terms, to be spot on. Of course, the way people experience their depression will vary, but the withdrawal into self and the apparent need to be …coaxed back out is very common, even among differing forms of MI.
That feeling of victimization seems all-too-common as well. The odd part is that we often learn, slowly, that we are essentially victimizing ourselves. We assume defensive and sometimes even adversarial roles relative to our environments because we perceive threats [or potential thereof] where none are actually present. We teach ourselves to expect a threat and therefore go around looking for evidence of what becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts.
I’m still not clear what this learning is about. I don’t believe in quick fixes, though I think sometimes it can happen. I do think however that dynamism is important for more depressed people, whatever their modality. But we humans are a pretty varied lot. If something feels like it is working and the ‘working’ feels like the ‘working’ one wants, then that is great, regardless of what many or most people need or want.
turtle, how long have you been in therapy and what have you learned about yourself as a result?
ier, I ask you the same.
What have you learned about yourselves and how has what you’ve learned helped you to crawl away from the miasma of depression?
i am learning about me not the rest of the world…
i have learned that i am very sensitive to what females think of me…i have learned that i am not a perfect person…i have learned that i need help from other persons…i have learned that i am happiest when i am kind to others including the dog…i am less depressed knowing these things and putting them in action…
just send me a bill…
Lady L.,
I’ve learned that in the absence of facts my “mind” goes for the worst case scenario. There are some events that may have caused this; but I’m only guessing. These include my mother’s attempted suicide when I was 10. Her depression, which was exacerbated by wine in her final year. Can’t judge her; can only feel. As for therapy, ongoing since 1993 with years of none. My son suffers from depression. His mother attempted suicide. He sees negative aspects of any situation before he can rationalize the positive. Both he and I have problems with relationships with women.
I was coming home from playing in the woods. On the front porch Dad was washing Mom’s hands and arms. The basin was red with blood. So, how does an event like this make a 10 yr. old child feel? And how is that feeling of abandonment ever resolved? No talk therapy can change my history; but it can and does teach me how to live in a world where experienced horrors can and do occur.
talk therapy cannot change your past history but it may change your future…
I don’t think it really changes the course of events in your life unless you, yourself, commit to making such a change. Therapy can help to alter just how you view, cope with, and come to except those events – past, present, or future.
In other words, if you go to therapy with a goal in mind, therapy can help you to conceptually realize that goal or understand what has kept you from that realization. Otherwise you’re just having a discussion and going through the motions.