[quote=“Qzxtvbzr”]
Why I consider it almost a proof of God: What a concept that is. Creating out of love and so that other creatures can know what love is, even thought they will blaspheme you and deny your existance. How amazing is that? Who, or What would every think of something like that except a Supreme, and All-Loving Being?
How about good ole Mom and Dad?
!!!I know this one!!! Hell is where people who reject God’s love are, so it can exist in this world and the next. Hell is the place that God is locked out of! That’s right. People in Hell don’t want God to enter hell, and God loves them enough to give them space. People are free to leave Hell at anytime; all they have to do is accept God’s love.
I’m a recovering agnostic! That spent a little to much time studying to become a Catholic Priest. While what I wrote is not Catholic Dogma, it is the most cogent argument for Hell and an all-loving God.
Pax Vitae
Good answer Pax. It’s almost unarguable logically but I still don’t think that it makes any reasonable sense. I just have to ask you what you base your information on? Most definitely not the bible, so are you creating your own religion? I like the sound of it, Paxanity. I must agree that I would much rather be a Paxan than a Christian but I can find nothing to validate your beliefs. Just because you want things to be a certain way doesn’t mean that they are. I would love to believe there is a God who loves me but if there is no validation, I just can’t believe it. Why have false hope?
Who said that I am rejecting God’s love? How do I reject something that is not there? If it were there, I would accept it with open arms. Why would anyone want to reject something that is supposedly so good for them?
Why don’t they want God to enter Hell? Do they prefer the eternal burning and evil of hell over the glory and goodness of God? I don’t think that you could find a single person on this planet that would prefer the concept of hell over the concept of heaven. It just doesn’t make any sense. When it comes down to it, the question is not do you accept or reject God’s love? but would you rather go to heaven or hell? Think about it. If hell is really as bad as it is made out to be, every time somebody enters Hell, they would say, “This sucks. I think I will accept God’s love now and take the escalator up to Heaven.” Why would anyone want eternal suffering, if it is as easy as just accepting God’s love?
The only people that don’t accept God’s love are those that don’t believe in God. Have you ever heard someone say, “Yup, I know there’s a God but I just hate how much He loves me. Why doesn’t He just leave me alone and go about His own business?!”
What is this concept that you refer to as “God’s Love”? Is it just a feeling? something that you can see? or is it just an abstract intangible product that some people have and others don’t?
-Skep
P.S. - Pax means Peace but what does Vitae mean? or is that really just your last name?
Oops, I better explain what my idea of ‘Hell’ is, as you won’t find it in any of the Religious books. Also none of this is Biblically based, but just working from the idea of an All-Loving God. Also this was written about 2 years ago when I was a lot more religious then I am today. So it will most lightly come off as a little naïve.
Yes it could be said that I’m creating my own religion, as the only point of reference I used was what I thought was logically correct. But since Moses “talked†to God and wrote down his laws, I thought I would try my hand and see if God spoke to me.
Please note I’m not trying to create a new religion or change old ones. I was exploring all the possible ideas of different religions. So this should be taken as a work of fiction. I want to see what was good in each, and if the good from all could be added together to form a better world view from a religious perspective.
I don’t have false hopes, I went in search of hope and found nothing that I could call real. So I’m back where I started, but with one difference I know what is wrong with a lot of religions. The only hope I could find was the hope that I found within myself. I’m resigned to the fact, that when I die, I’ll go back to the nothingness, which I came from.
Yes all true, and like I said earlier, a naïve idea.
My idea of Hell is more about not being able to face our own true self. So not accepting that some of the things we do are morally wrong. A catholic would call this “Owning our Sin.†Or as JC put it, “John 3:19-21 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hates the light, neither coming to the light, lest his deeds should be criticize. But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are fashioned in God.â€
But what if, to get into heaven you had to face all your sins first? The only good reason for Sin is if it’s a tool to teach. So the greater the sin you do, the greater the lesson you will have to learn before you enter heaven. Imagine that before the “Last Judgement†you could go to everybody you ever sinned against and ask them for forgiveness. That way before it was your time to be “Judged†you could have been forgiven all your sins? So God could say, “Your slate has been wiped clean as you have been forgiven all your sins. Because no other person holds any sins against you, nor will I. Go you sins have been forgiven.†It’s kind of like the idea of the woman that was being stoned to death, but JC stopped it and said, “Only he who is without sin can cast the first stone.†But again this is only what I would like to believe.
That’s not quite the way I would see it. To accept God’s love also requires us to face are sins. God won’t just go “No more sinâ€. It will be, “Look at your sins, learn from your sins. Forgive others, as you also want to be forgiven.†You can’t get into heaven and still believe that someone has sinned against you, as you will not have learnt that only people that love each other and will forgive each other will go into heaven. Hell is the waiting place for people who will not forgive, or won’t take responsibility for their own sins. Purgatory is the process of forgiving and being forgiven. Again this is how I would logically understand it, and it’s not what’s thought in any church I know of.
True. I know a lot of people like this. I don’t talk about religion with then. They know I’ve spent time in a seminary and if they want to talk about it with me they’ll come to me. But I don’t want to go around converting people, I just want to help those that want to be help by God. I know it annoys me when Joviha Witnesses come calling to my door. It’s when they start phoning me in telemarketing campaigns that I’ll really get pissed. 
What is God’s Love? Good question. I assume it’s like a girlfriends but without the monthly nightmare. I’ve heard it expressed as the feeling of emptiness some people have, that they can’t quite put their finger on put know something is missing. It’s about being made more complete by being with God, so presupposes that we are not complete without him. But of course many will dispute this. But I don’t know. I once wanted to believe in a being that would make things right with this world. But I’ve given up hope and have said, “*uck you! God, I’ll do it myself.†Whether a real God exists or not, one thing is clear, he does very little to change the world in obvious ways. I believe if we want to live in a better world we must do the hard work ourselves, and give up, all this waiting for God.
Pax (Peace) Vitae (Life)
It could be translated as either Peace of Life, or Life of Peace. It’s what I’m searching for, a motto or maxim that I try to live by.
Pax,
I still can find no reason to believe your views, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t like them. I almost wish that they were true. I would much prefer that the millions of Christians around the world shared your beliefs than their current bigotous beliefs. In fact, I have come to many of your concepts of God, Heaven, Hell, and Love in my own search for the truth. In the end, I have come to realize that with no evidence or divine revelation, I am only left to live by an Atheistic outlook on life.
I must admit, however, that it has been rough trying to find meaning, structure, and purpose in life without a supreme being to designate it. Life, as I think you would agree, is what you make of it. If there is a God, He sure as heck isn’t giving us a helping hand. If we sit around praying and waiting all of our lives, nothing will ever change. This is why I find such a peace in my new Atheistic outlook.
I enjoyed your concept of redemption as that was a very new idea to me (at least in the sense of the heaven/hell scenario). It seems almost fair, but is useless to me because I can find no good reason to believe in an afterlife. I like the idea though and think that it is better practiced during life than waiting to face my sins in death. Facing our sins/selfishness is truly a redemption in a practical sense. In Christianity, when I look back on it, redemption always seemed to be somewhat like a game to me, although I would devote much effort in making myself believe it meant something. When I would pray for forgiveness, I would truly feel forgiven. It was almost as if I were forgiving myself. This is a very necessary part of a fulfilling and joyous life. Facing our own evilness is the only way we can conquer it. I very strongly believe that every man possesses a good heart and good intentions deep down. No one intends to become a murderer or an evil-doer when they are a child. Our childhood dreams are full of hope and imagined glory. Somewhere along the way our selfishness and ego’s take over. Our only redemption is in facing those sins and wrong-doings. But there is more to it than just facing and asking for forgiveness from those whom we have ill-affected. We must set things right. We must make up for our mistakes. Only in this, lies redemption. Could there possibly be any more joy than in fixing our mistakes and making things right? This is where we will find peace, joy, love, and happiness. This is my heaven on earth. I only wish that I could say that I had the will power to do these things. But until then, I will continue to strive for goodness.
What do you mean by “I’m resigned to the fact . . .” I just misunderstand whether you are communicating that you are for or against “going back to nothingness”? I am guessing that you intended to disagree with the no-afterlife theory. I understand your feelings but I think that you would agree with me that this is no more than a hope. There is no good reason to believe in a future consiousness after death, although there is much reason to hope for one. I have hope too but am unwilling to live as if there is an afterlife. As I think Polemarchus put it, we were fine without consciousness for the first half of eternity, why should the second half be any different? (Of course, I’m sure he put it more eloquently.)
Same here, and after growing up with Christian ideals and beliefs it is hard to overcome, especially when so much of your heart was devoted to it. On a personal note, how have you come to deal with the many relationships you have had with devout Christians? such as fellow seminary classmates/friends, family, and other friends? I am dealing with this now and am finding it tough to cope with. I feel very much an outsider now, almost as if I were coming out of the closet or something. Know what I mean? Most of my friends and family are very devout Christians and it is very hard to explain to them my reasons. Every explanation seems to them to be an attack on their beliefs. How have you dealt with these situations or have you?
peace,
Skep
How does one prove that God isnt immoral?
What if God is in a bad mood and raises his voice a bit?
What if our pain is his entertainment?
How can we even make sense of his logically unfathomable nature?
Do we really need a supreme being to give us meaning and purpose?
I think that many Christians have these notions of love and positivity ingrained into their minds so deeply that they are unable to look around and see that our world is crumbling. Pain, despair, poverty and indifference are in the majority rule when you look at the world as a whole.
However, I dont deny that there is tremendous good in our world. Humans have the capability of sharing love and compasion and reaching out to those in need. We know that we are capable of good or bad and we make our choices. Every person may possess a good heart but it can easily be tainted by the evils of man (or maybe this is what God had allowed).
Humans have a tendency to look to a supreme being to give us guidance and love but what we are forgetting is that we are the ones who have the power, the discretion, the authority to love each other. We set the moral grounds, we decide our destination, we choose to love or hate. We are the supreme beings and thus we give ourselves meaning and purpose. This should give us a sence of empowerment not pointlesness.
We can choose to wait until God enters the realm of human ken but we may have to wait forever. Why dont we just take responsibility for ouselves and our existence and face the world with courage instead of hiding behind a sheild of dogmatic beliefs. The weak need to be shielded by God for they are programmed to believe that the world is a cold and sterile place in the absence of their deity. We simply do not need this mentality.
Lets use what we know we definitely have, not what we think we have by way of faith. After all how can we logically know? and what would this require? The question will still remain. Is God a Meany?
Hi Skeptic,
I don’t have enough evidence to believe or not to believe that God exists. I’m still left in the middle, unsure of what is really true. As the amount of Order in the Universe has me puzzled. There are laws to the way all things interact with each other. It is the only think that is still keeping my mind open to the idea of God, or at least the concept of a “Universe Creator.†I’ve heard people argue that you make just as much a lead of faith in saying God doesn’t exist, as saying that he does. I’m inclined to agree with this. But I will admit, that on the whole the odds are stacked in favour of God not existing. But I’m going to take the middle ground and work on my arguments for and against God’s existence.
I agree with you whole-heartedly on this.
I mean, I don’t want to go back to nothingness, but have accepted that it is the most lightly outcome at the end of my life. I would love to believe again in an afterlife but I can’t. Logic and reason have robbed me of this hope. To quote Polemarchus, but from a different perspective, “The fact that I’ve cheated non-existence once, there’s hope I might do so again.†Hehe, I think were like the men looking at a glass that is half filled with water and one saying, it’s half empty, and the other is saying it’s half full.
I’m no longer in contact with the people in the seminary, as it has been about a year and a half since I left. We didn’t have much in common except the belief that the life of a Priest was our vocation. They were also very set in their ways of thinking; it was like they couldn’t think for themselves. I know this isn’t a nice thing to say, but they would never examine anything they where told or what they believed. It was like they would take whatever answer the Authority gave them at face value. I can’t live like that, I must know why it is a certain way, and if I feel they are wrong I will tell them so. That was the main reason I left, I was exploring philosophy which was opening up my mind to other possibilities. It was also at the beginning of all the child abuse scandals in Ireland. I heard stories from the inside talking about how everybody knew it was going on, but would not say anything! This really pissed me off! They had disowned there flock to protect there own, they were no better then scum. And there was no way I would ever be apart of an organization like that. I hope the Vatican is destroyed, as they are an abomination of desolation. I spent a lot of time reading the history of the Catholic Church, most of the good deeds that it did where done by the people on its fringe, the ordinary layperson, not the Cardinals or Popes. Most of the aforementioned bought there way into office and they set about plundering the wealth of the weak, even the local parish priest used things called indulgencies to get people to buy there way into heaven. This was the main trigger for the Reformation and Counter Reformation of the Church. If you look at a brief overview of the Catholic Church history it would read something like this: Persecution of the Jews, Inquisition, Crusades, Papal Infallibility, Child Sex Scandals. And this is the body of Christ! Sure, pull the other one! Anyway…
I have three sisters and my mother, all of them were very supportive of me both going in and leaving. Only one of my sisters is very religious, and her husband would have to be considered a fundamentalist, but in Ireland they’re a little different from the ones you’ll find in USA. But he does have all the conspiracy theories, which are fun to talk to him about, until you realize that he really believes this madness. He would be the only person that I would have difficulty’s talking to after I had left, but I try not to talk about it too much, as it will always lead to heated discussions.
As for my friends they have always been saying “Pax, you’ll never become a Priest!†and they where right. Most of my close friends are not in any way religious, so me going off to become a Priest was seen as utter lunacy. I gave up a good computer-programming job in Florida to move back home to Dublin. All in all I’m happy with the choices I’ve made as it’s made my life a lot more interesting, if a little disjointed.
While there are a lot of good things about Christianity, most of the people who practice it are terrible Christians. But I put up with a lot of what I would call nonsense, only because I know what they’re after is worth their delusions.
Pax Vitae.