He never said that.
News misinterprets a lot of what he says. I’m not a fan of a lot of what he doesn’t, but nobody ever liked everything a pope has ever done. If I ever get a pope that goes absolutely nuts, I will just switch over to the Greek Church. Christianity has more than one patriarch.
Are CofE bishops valid ones, in your opinion?
Apostolically they were. Once you have a female Bishop, automatically invalid, every priest she makes, and if he is promoted to Bishop, no Christian Bishop will recognize him as a Bishop.
Apostolic descent is very, very important in Christianity. We didn’t always have the office of Bishop (a Bishop is still just a priest) but in order to be a Bishop, one had to be a priest first.
In order to be a priest, you had to be consecrated by another priest. Some people point out Paul wasn’t, but it is said he was directly by God, and even if you don’t buy that, he had access to some of the apostles who confirmed it, they found he was on par with them, and recognized him as such, and beyond a doubt engaged in communion with one another.
The bishops descended from every holy see are carefully tracked, any living priest’s lineage us traceable to this. It only continues on as a lineage if the office of Bishop qualifies as Bishop.
Some priests in the Church of England may never of been under a illegitimate Bishop. Their lineage may be perfectly intact. But I’m sure it will very quickly die off soon.
It’s not just women, I’m not allowed to become a priest (ex military), if your missing body parts you can’t become a priest (you can lose them later), etc. Only exception I can seek is becoming a military chaplain. I won’t. I have no desire period, but explaining to you some of the rules.
When they say any male Catholic can become pope, they mean first you become a priest, then pope. Most Catholic men can’t… while it is legal for married men to become priests in all the ancient churches, including the Catholic church (very, very hard to get approval in the Catholic church for a married man to do that… gotta be a Lutheran pastor converting over with your congregation practically to keep your wife) no married priest can become Bishop. Gotta, wait till your wife dies, and divorce isn’t allowed on the priest’s end to further a promotion.
These are some of the old rules. That’s purely to qualify for the role of being a Bishop. Ironically, being a Christian isn’t even a prerequisite, it has happened as the barbarians were invading Greece, the local priests were fleeing, and decided to appoint a local pagan philosopher as Bishop. I can’t recall his name, it was outside Sparta, he went along with it only because it was a imperial administrative post, in charge of local government, but also had to do church services and preserve the local orthodoxy… as pissed off tribes of (Slavs or Goths, can’t recall which) moved in. Besserion, likewise, almost certainly wasnt christian.
You can have a woman sovereign as some sort of ambigious co-equal to the patriarch in Cesaro-popism, both eastern and western rome did this juggling act, but everyone knew they were not priests. They didn’t have the right to do what Henry 8th did, and when they tried, they got scolded then excommunicated if they didn’t change, but playing a active part in church affairs is not frowned upon.
What us frowned upon, is chucking a title of bishop to a noble who inherits it. If he wasn’t a priest to begin with, then it is a automatically invalid office. King doesn’t have authority within christianity to randomly appoint bishops, only priests can do that.
As far as I’m aware, CofE has exceptionally difficult challenges pricing it has apostolic legitimacy. There are a number of churches in England, such as the Celtic Orthodox, Russian and Greek Orthodox, Coptic and Ethiopian Orthodox, and Catholic, who have a more legitimate claim to being the Archbishop of Canterbury. You have to be a priest of a lineage that existed in communion prior to that church seperating. Given every appearance that the CofE died off apostolically, for the CofE to regain legitimacy, it would have to either join one of those churches, or get a Bishop from one if them to come over and put affairs back into order in the CofE.
You just can’t slap on a rove, get Parliament to approve you, and be a Bishop. Nobody who understands how it works would accept it.
Sadly, your historians in your country often don’t know even this much. They get confused on history forums how apostolic succession works, which is a pity as some very bug events in roman and medical history hinge on it.
Missing body parts? Sounds a bit rough, and rather unfair, too. And what if the person simply lied and said he had never been in the military?
I understand the concept of apostolic succession, because some Pagan traditions have a similar idea too, in the female line.
You can be in the military, if you got drafted and didn’t fight. Again… they make exception for military chaplains.
I can provide rationalizations, but that shouldn’t be substituted for THE reason.
St. Maurice, St George (not referring to the Knight slaying the dragon, that is a pagan myth adapted to St. George, St. George was a commander who was martyred, his iconography suggests a legionaire), St. Sebastion.
Now… you likely noted that exception of military chaplains… this was exploited into full grown military orders in both the Catholic Church, and Russian Orthodox Church. I’m not very fond of that.
I’ve done a lot of research into crusading orders to this day, the big ones are still around… The last few heads of The Knights of Malta were british actually, think the current one is… they have united nations recognition, but gave up their last military unit in WW2.
Templars still around, last military Knight died in the 1970s though.
Just… most of theses were monks, not priests, but priests are always going to be amongst a large group of monks. I have no clue how they balanced it out. Furthermore, I dismayed the church ever allowed it. I know how it happened, just bothers me it did. I would of preferred the church to of remained separate from the state, and not allow monks to be simultaneously be soldiers too. The rules on being a monk are far, far more flexible than those of being a priest, as we really didn’t have them in the first few centuries of christianity. St. Anthony did the pathfinding of that.
The Templars are still around? Wasn’t the order suppressed in 1307? There are a lot of groups that claim to be Templars, of course, and all sorts of theories about Freemasons being descended from them, and so on.
Templars still very much around. They are a political conservative plaything in Italy, especially Naples.
It was never fully shutdown, always had a chapter and monestary open somewhere, such as Austria, and kept jumping around. A lot of people confuse it with Malta, or will just refer to it’s “restart”, but aren’t aware it was already long established elsewhere when it was legally encouraged to move.
Like I said, their last combative Knight passed away, so I really hope those ceremonial swords aren’t sharpened, as someone will poke a eye out. It was always by a narrow thread though. The chapters ran throughout the UK of course aren’t that old, it was a expansive chapter of the order.
In several countries, they changed their names to other orders, or joined the hospitalers for a time. I’m not talking about that Masonic joke. Wikipedia doesn’t provide much information on it, but you will find their history much better detailed in modern works on military orders. They have a ridiculously long legal case history, as they lasted for centuries in other countries in a legal sovereign form, would be allowed back in, and would sue trying to get it’s old lands back.
Under heraldry, given no actual combative Knight is around (like I said, last one up and died a few decades ago) I don’t believe they possess the legal capacity to mint new knights. What is around is their support network, that was built up to support their efforts.
The Knights of Malta don’t have the issue of being suppressed in most countries, and as hospitallers, had less emphasis on fighting than the Template (they even took in a lot of Templar groups, who preserved their own traditions, later left once they could), so can much more easily claim continuation. They certainly we not dependent of decrees by Napoleon on if they had legal power to operate or not. Template had to play it legally with lawyers and diplomats, and dwindled down next to just a chapter here and there in conservative Catholic countries, but always just barely kept their heads above water. The didn’t survive continually in any one nation to the present, but had to move around a lot.
If you think they know all the secret medieval bank locations, I assure you, given how impoverished and marginalized they were over the last 600 years, surviving by a thread, they don’t. A true trestament to how heraldry and feudal legal systems work. I’m just doubtful a medieval monarch would recognize the order in it’s current state, when it was reduced down to next to nothing for centuries, and currently degenerated into just a charitable organization after the main military order died off of natural causes, just the support offices going on. This be the equivalent of the Last UK soldier dying off from old age in 1000 years, in Gibraltar, but the Army not officially being dissolved because the minister of defence kept it’s office open with some logistic apparatus, and a still functioning barracks ran officially as part of the army, staffed with civilians pushing paper work to ensure the no longer existing army functions.
You would ask “where’s the beef”. That’s the nature of the templars today. It is a plaything of politicians in Italy. I’m certain it didn’t survive the Nazis in Austria, the French branch was linked to Napoleon, in Portugal is exists in a purely legal fiction inside a jacket (I’m not joking, it is inside a jacket legally)…
So when people say “any legal military orders still around” I just say knights of malta. It is a pain in the ass to go over Templar history, cause it had been moved and morphed so damn often. They don’t even bother explaining it either anymore either. It doesn’t make sense to many how they could survive a papal bull dissolving the order, yet still be very much around. Again… how feudalism worked.
Jaconist are similar, the current pretender to the English throne doesn’t claim outright to have a claim to the throne, but kept it legally open to this day. Just a pain in the ass to explain how this works to say, a Chinese or American thinking in terms of Parliament and nation states.
d/p
I know that the Templars survived in Spain and Portugal, just changing their name. Elsewhere their lands were handed over to the Hospitallers.
Not is Austria.
They lasted against the odds.
They also got to keep their colors under the Hospitallars, and I recall reading some went back to the Templars when the order started expanding again.
Today mostly linked to the House of Savoy, like I said, a play thing in conservative Italian politics.
They’ve expanded back in England too. Just… dont expect them to know a damn thing about fighting, might know more thsn average about banking, but no more that your average rich person.
Theur ranks come heavily from rich catholics looking to be a part of something… The Templars always exploited this desire by giving local landed or rich aristocrats and merchants some sort of title or recognition. Some even take monastic vows… but most don’t. I am catholic, and give my paltry money to The Machine Gun Preacher’s charity, “The Angels of East Africa”, even though he is protestant, cause I really hate what The Lord’s Liberation Army did kn Africa, abd he was the omly one caring enough to look after the orphans. Im not really a joiner or find satisfaction in a large ecclesiastical operation… I understand the necessity and psychology, but just isn’t me.
I hadn’t heard that, but I know the House of Savoy also owned the Turin Shroud.
They might, I could care less for such gimmicks. Even if authentic, still played as a gimmick. I don’t need to see the tortured face of God when I see it in others, and in myself. Enough meaning and motivation can be garnered from a long, deep look in the mirror, or sitting idle in the park looking at passerbyers lost in thought. Enough to understand all seeking, all meaning, all aborted ambitions and loss desires man can have, if you look honestly and intently enough.
Sounds a bit depressing. Look for sadness and you’ll find it all too easily, and I think the morbid, guilt-laden pronouncements of the Christian church over the centuries have promoted this. Life is a joyful thing, and is not a dress rehearsal.
Life is neither sad nor joyful. It is both and many more.
The motivations that cause us to seek, are often opposite of who we are. A solitary pilgrimage seeking the distant horizon is a introspective journey, one step at a time, seeking the self. A pilgrimage of the ground, of fixed sites and relics is a superimposition of ideals cobbled together, to be understood or not. Every relic, every church, every shrine is a gimmick. It is neither God nor Self, but a cultural figuration of what society thinks we need.
In all the cycles of life, patterned rhythms experienced through days, we come to know both joy and sorrow. It is inevitable. When one sets out on a Pilgrim’s journey, excitement and relief mixes, anticipation and perplexity mixes, skepticism and faith, desires stir in wisdom’s wake, never certain of what is coming.
What is coming? The commodities are fixed, few will surpass the mazed wisdom of the crowds who meander from place to place for meaning, a topographical understanding of place to place.
I’ve never given a damn for such truffles. They could have God’s forearm on display actively dispensing miracles and I would not care for it. It misses the point of the monastic undertaking, and it perverts the wisdom and consolation men seek.
There is no philosophy of life, only life. I wouldn’t try to paint the world any given hue, as it naturally possesses all the qualities of the rainbow, externally and internally in the self.
And if you want to claim paganism is more life affirming, there are some sacrificed bog people who’s corpse I suggest you become acquainted with, of beheaded men in Lycan temples, and Aztecs who had their hearts cut out in joyous sacrifice to the continuation of the world. When you try to moron concepts to their unnatural positive extremes, a lot of perversion arises. My preference is to neither dance to false paradise or seek out a savior martyrdom, out of ideological predilection, but to let time and appreciation, and whatever pain and sacrifice that must come, in tranquil and accepting appreciation. I appreciate a good sunset, but don’t insist on painting everyone as good. The ideal should never blemish the real.
We are part of the world, not separate from it, and so is any god that might exist. So seeking ancient sites is a genuine spiritual experience.
In the economy of the soul, we find empty markets for the divine. The daily give and take is rarely contemplated, it is passed over as distant and routine, not to be distracted by.
We rarely pause in our mayhem save when exhausted, to contemplate our motivations, of our aims and actions, of those things we identify with most closely. They should be our greatest possessions and reveal much about ourselves, but they rarely do. Mere junkable trifles. The external things are perishable, ephemerial, and those internal things linked are equally commoditized, given away to the weather and changing seasons of the soul.
The routes to wisdom and knowing surpass the highest good on sale, the greatest spectacle offered, the sweetest taste, most fragrant smell, beautiful delight in any place and time. We cannot dress wisdom up for sale, understanding in garments that cover what is meaningful. It will remain aloof, we remain unfulfilled in our great yearnings for something ever most distant and unattainable. Wisdom can never be something for sale to the highest bidder, for collecting objects, the amalgamation of wealth brings you no closer to it. It is not the salve that heals all wounds, this seeking, but earnestly trying to understand and accept. In the deserts of life, we try to garden a paradise, but realizing we are in the forests of Eden, these acts become a absurd, blinding us to the immediate truth around us. If a pilgrimage inspires this understanding and approach, it is good, but too many get caught up on relics and deeper meanings, of mystery beyond circumstance. We wait for the logical ‘ah-ha’ but it is all too often fading. A devotion to a artifact should never surpass the good we should be experiencing in our daily lives. A place should never stand higher and more divine, sacrosanct, over the daily struggles of men walking and yearning after the truth.
The value of the medieval pilgrimage wasn’t in the locations visited, but the journey itself, in those invisible places between never described on maps. What makes a site holy isn’t a relic or event, but the worth of the Pilgrim who visits it. Too many grand palaces stand in ruin, too man temples lost to time, too many great man turned to dust. I’m impressed with God and Man, of life and outlr appreciations, of our tribulations. This is the only firm thing I can draw from my study of the ancients. Like in Ecclesiastes life is ever turning, predictable and unoriginal. The exciting things fool us into thinking there is a commodity greater than ourselves, of good neighbors, good communities, and good living. The very best history, the very best archeology… it tells that tale. Once the things on sale are disentangled in the heart from the self, the boldness of the soul is shown. Space was never meant to be a emotive, identifiable commodity. It is no substitute for the spirit, it makes for poor dressings of the soul.
My temple is nature, and my goddess the earth. All else flows from this, and I draw no distinction between body, spirit, mind or soul, emotion or intellect. If I feel something instinctively, then it is true for me. My wisdom does not come from books, or the writings of the great and the good, but from the wind, rain and sun. I read a lot, it is true, and I certainly don’t reject the value of books and their capacity to stir the soul. But I am only truly at home in the forest or on the heath.
Knowing and unknowing, logic and the senses, it all depends on duality, differation, subjection in orientation and observation. To know instinctively and to know consciously are both cognitive, both dualist.
The arm may react in reflect, but does not think. It is a appendage of a central nervous system. Our ability to write think poetry is not the arm, but to write it beautifully, in calligraphy is. The craft is dependent upon the body, as the body on the mind. To set a great idea into motion, coordination must exist, or apraxia results. With coordination is admittance of differation and duality.
A God isn’t deposition. If it was, they would be wounded and cry out in landscaping. They would die in mountaintop mining. Should a miner fear the God of a holy mountain if he is a mountain killer? Has slayed countless mountains in the past, leveling them for coal and minerals, blasting after blast, bulldozer after bulldozer?
A good cannot reside in the earth, we would surely of poisoned it with our waste by now. Nature is a abstraction, is holds as much existence as artificiality. It is a false dualism. It is a presumption of space, a territorialization of an ideal. Can we see the forest past the trees? Is the statement that “a map is not a territory” without validity? Is the famous painting of a pipe, with the words “This is not a pipe” below it without insight into your presumption here?
A map is a map and a painting a painting. No one confuses them with the things they depict and to say otherwise is to create a false problem.
Nature is not an abstraction. It is, very literally, the only reality. The earth, our goddess, can indeed be poisoned by our actions, in the sense that insect bites can give us an irritating rash. Like flies, we can be swatted away.
Everything I know, and everything I am, comes through my senses. All the rest, I have to take on trust, or not, as I choose. I am not a separate being inhabiting my body.
Of course your egoism is separate from your senses, and your body. You would lack consciousness if this wasn’t the case.
Nature isn’t reality, as nature doesn’t exist. That is an ideal your supposing, implanting your egoist self inside of, interpreting your sensory information in. Stand to the left, nature, stand to the right, less so?
If you make no distinction in non-duality of the functions of mind and body, why do you insist in the contradiction that it exists externally, and yet doesn’t? You cannot have it both ways. You are mistaking the map, the metric ideals, for the actuality. People make these mistakes constantly.