Lady L.,
I’m addressing the problem of imposed eugenics here. It is doubful that J. had either a female castration (removal of the clitoris) or a lobotomy (destruction of portions of the frontal lobe of the brain). She may have had her tubes tied out of the knowledge of genetic transfers, but by the late 1980s I doubt she was capable of considering that possibility. She is probably menopausal now at 58 yrs.old.
For those who have suggested here that society bears much fault for how it deals with MIs, eugenics is now practiced through economics. If you don’t have the money, you don’t get the best care. According to NAMI, New Hampshire is one of the few states that actually gives a damn about its MIs. In most other states it’s down to sink or swim.
How many here have had hallucinations and delusions?
I awoke once to see the ghost of the early Pac Man games on the bedroom door. I was not dreaming. The rest of the room was normal. Also, lying in bed I felt a hand touch mine. I grasped it and found no arm or body, just the hand. This was some 10 yrs before I met J. So I thought these sights and feelings must be side effects of my meds. Although I had been extremely paranoid at times, I was never diagnosed as having a psychosis.
See the excellent reference to Dr. Sacks that Spiralize88 gives in his Feb. 2nd post in his thread “First Memories.” Sacks makes clear distinctions beween hallucinations that are not psychotic and those that are.
The first incident with Pacman need not be considered a hallcination. The states between waking and sleeping - hypnopompic and hypnogogic - can bring some dream images along with them into what seems like full waking. I have had many such experiences.
Thanks, Moreno. What startled me was the projection of the image on a real door. Please give us definitions of the states you mention.
Here’s Wiki on this…
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnagogia
Yes, I understand about the mixing of dream image and waking image, but I think this is fairly common - iow that a fairly large number of people experience this at some time in their lives, most likely when children.
You can consciously do this. Imagine something and place the image on a wall or something blank. You can also daydream and be seeing in your inner eye something and also the road ahead as you drive. Here you know what you are doing and the imagined images are not as well produced as in dreaming.
Thanks for the reference, Moreno. Take a look at the Sacks reference. It is difficult for me to see any radical difference between hallucinations I’ve had during waking and those J. experiences while awake. It appears to me that the same sort of neuro-chemical goings on are happening in both of our brains. I just don’t have these when fully awake. Something in her brain keeps doing what my brain stops doing.
I still contend that a key to discovering what schizophrenia is will include research into awake dreaming or into being trapped in the states you mentioned.
greaterthings.com/Susan/Schizophrenia/index.html
Moreno,
I’m wondering what are the chemical “controls” that allow one to fall asleep or to wake up. It was believed in the 1980s that all mental illnesses could be explained by what goes on at the synapse between neurons. With the discovery of endorphins and their role in homeostasis of brain function, explaining MI has become more complicated. It’s not just what occurs with dopamine, seratonin or noreprenephrin (SIC). It’s what makes for the balance that achieves homeostasis.
I would expect the most timely research about MI to be going on at NIMH. It used to be. Now the best research is being done abroad–another fatality of US economic thinking. The “in between” states of awake and asleep may actually tell us something of why some brains can achieve functional homeostasis while others cannot. fMRI, so far, has been the best way of looking into the brain’s operations.
I have been away for a while.
What I am aiming at is the two basic divisions in MI, one a physical flaw, which I do not address at all, and the other a flaw in application and exercise, which is derived from the hazzards of the learning process itself. This is the type of MI that I address. One can liken it to people who have physical disorders simply due to a lack of exercise or an improper use of the body itself.
In this wise, I understand the human mind functions using both branches of primitive reasoning, logic and analogic, and that this second type of Mi is what someone without a medical background can affect.
Also, since the foundation of reasoning is not understood, I would find it difficult to believe that a practictioner could distinguish the one MI from the other, however, I think this is vitally important. Secondly, since the MI that is due to lack of comprehension and exercise of linguistic functions is social, it tends to have a far greater social impact. This last is overly exampled in the history of man, himself.
And third, since the linguistic functionality of man is a rather recent evolutionary development, often what is called MI is simply due to the mind not being able yet to function due to its youth, and therefor is not an illness but a youthfulness.
And lastly, since the human mind is responsible to effect human action, one of the greatest contributers to human mental distress is a social structure which relieves the mind of learning to have to do everyday chores in order to live. The mind has little to do. This can be overcome by those who set themselves constrant tasks to learn and perform. The mind is responsible for judgments, take away that function and you take away its job, its purpose.
An excellent post. Here’s where I agree and disagree. First, as to the latter, I tend to see the entire process of mind in a trajectory of physical precursors, becoming, in a later stage of development, mostly dependent on the social environment., i.e., developing into a feedback loop that involves the soma and extra-somatic influences. Thus, it is difficult for me to make any mental/physical distinction based on the one being other than the other. I do agree that the human race is, in its evolution, infant or adolescent and that we are able to make enivironments and artifacts we’ve not really learned how to cope with–something like an infant playing with a loaded gun.
These guys are dealing with the most complex thing in the world, the human body centered on it endocrine/nervous system. Scientists treat the body like a Newtonian object. If there is too much of this we give the person X since this lowers
'this*.
But we have hysterically complex system and no reason to assume we are almost there or have even started mapping all the causal system in the brain and body.
It’s a bit like when they released cane toads or rabbits in Australia as an answer to some ecological problem…OOOOOps. The system is more complicated and is not really Newtonian.
Further neuroscientists and pharmaceutical companies will descirbe causes AS IF THEIR WAY OF EXPLAINING IS THE ONLY ONE THAT IS TRUE. This is just silly. We know from cognitive therapies, which are very well documented, that people can learn via ideas and emotional work to change patterns. These practices DO NOT directly go after chemicals in the brain, but they affect them
What these companies are after is control, magic bullets and patents. When you do full studies of their effectiveness the drugs do not look that good.
I just read in the Times Herald that after looking at the treatment of ADd and ADÄHD in a number of countries NO IMPROVEMENT could be demonstrated. A short term improvement that then disappeared could be demonstrated. Still I am sure millions of children and adults will be diagnosed and then treated on the chemical tweaking model.
Seriously, these guys are philosophically dumb.
i researched the Thorazine family of drugs and how they were developed - since it affected my family. What I found was that these drugs reduced anxiety in TRAUMATIZED monkeys.
But they then used the drugs as if the people in question were not traumatized, but rather suffered from a brain illness.
Their own research called into question both the use of the drugs and the diagnoses related to them.
BUT THEY DO NOT ADMIT THIS.
People assume, for some reason, that huge companies generally wouldn’t do things for their own benefit that might mess people up. I don’t know what year they think companies became neutral, let alone benevolent. (of course some people working there are good people, but most of them DO NOT WANT TO NOTICE, the philosophical problems inherent in this field.)
The Hudson Bay Company back,dozens of huge companies like Enron, the companies that made the swine flu vaccines…these companies all have documented and not just a few crimes. Doyou know that one of the companies that got the contract to supply Europe with the swine vaccine had sent Czech Republic vaccines that had LIVE bird flu virus AND a flue virus. Can you imagine what would have happened if people had gotten those vaccines? We have a serious disease and a disease that makes you cough sneeze and run snot together. That company despite this ‘boo boo’ got one of the contracts to make swine flu virus.
These companies are not our friends. Though, of course, it can be just the right treatment on occasion.
Thanks, Moreno, for the jolt of reality. Companies care only for profit, not for you or me. On the Newtonian–I had hopes that reseach in genetics, soma and epigenetics, along with neuroplasticity might fit into a program in which computers could arrive at a whole brain theory; but, I understand that such hope is based on prefrontal, cortexial logic. The brain is not a computer. It can concieve of computers; but it cannot concieve of itself. Of the meds I’m taking, the side-effects sound worse than the illlness. Intended an unintentended cosequenses of drug therapy need rexamination. I think this problem of drug efficacy and side-effects might now be based on “stastical” evidence. In that case, finding a drug with few side effects probably doesn’t really matter to pharmaceutical companies.
Just an interesting tidbit regarding Thorazine and its apparent use as an anti-anxiety or anti-psychotic:-- They used this stuff back in the 60s and 70s pretty regularly, when benzodiazapines hadn’t gained so much momentum in the public eye. Anyway, they’d give Thorazine to, say, a person stuck in a hellish LSD freak-out-session the same that they might give it to an uncontrollable, violent, or panic stricken ‘psychotic’ or schizophrenic. A shot of Thorazine and the patients would be incapacitated, quite literally – total loss of motor function. What they discovered, only after using the medication in this way for years, is the psychological effects of Thorazine do not mirror the physical effects. Not in the slightest. Upon further examination, they discovered that Thorazine effectively neutralized the physical aspects of a ‘psychotic’ episode, but had no such effect on the brain. In short, the patients were left in a mentally ‘psychotic’, or panicked, state; but stuck inside the shell of a body they knew but couldn’t use. They were trapping people in their own heads, without any means of physical expression or communication. Many patients treated this way wound up irreparably traumatized – even to the extent of potentiating the original condition. People treated for bad trips would be forever changed in some cases. Those treated for a preexisting psychosis would become even more detached from reality. The whole thing is a prime example of these presumably easy ‘fixes’ we feed to people on a massive scale before we even understand what they do, let alone the ramifications of generalized use.
And now we have legalized speed and opiates being used like a morning coffee…
Extreme cases, like my uncle who has Rheumatoid Arthritis, get a veritable Brompton cocktail to take on a daily basis. What they don’t bother to explain is that prolonged use of opiates, benzos, muscle relaxers, anti-psychotics, SSRIs, etc. can actually potentate preexisting conditions as well. Some people realize this and force themselves off the medications to discover they were no longer treating symptoms of their illness, but, rather, the illness became subordinate to the physical dependency. They have no way of knowing what amount is enough, or what period of time is too long, before they are treating a withdrawal syndrome on top of a serious condition. Without educated doctors, this is the sad state of affairs we are left in. Most doctors know little to nothing about addiction or the ramifications of prolonged use of mind altering substances. It’s really a disgusting display, for lack of a better word.
Thanks, Stat for that infomative post. I agree with it. Little is known about habits. The fact that mimics of endorphins can get through the blood brain barrier to endorphin receptors proves this. All a drug company has to do is find a good mimic that appeases the receptors. Meanwhile the appeasement does not get to any root causes of an illness. As Moreno noted the entire neuronal/endocrine system mave have problems which certain drugs hide or disguise. Here in the 21st century the mind/body problem looms as large as it ever was. It’s as if the medics are putting new tires on a car that needs an engine adjustment when they attempt patchwork diagnoses and prescribe accordingly. AsAldous Huxley noted, complex problems do not have simple solutions and the ends cannot justify the means when the means have ends of their own.
I think we expect a Salk, Pasteur or Erlich to arrive on the scene with the magic bullet or effective antidote. I don’t hear of many in our commercialized medical system who could make such concentrated efforts nowadays.
Recently, on a radio news broadcast, I heard that grief and shyness are now being considered disorders in the DSM. Soon now you may be able to buy a prescription of anti-shyness meds.
And who says the diagnosticians and the drug companies are not in cahoots?
all we can do at this time is just protect our own ass…we are in a fast mode society…we are the ones taking the medicines and drugs…i am taking an anti-depressant which i think is harming me more than helping…i will check with my doctor…
I wouldn’t advise medication for depression unless you are actually suicidal, let alone shy or grief stricken. They are initially, in my experience a good way to switch off your brain completely, then as a ghost of yourself re-emerges they just make you much easier for other people to live with.
Did I hear somewhere that they dole them out in some American prisons solely to keep the peace?
I had an episode a while back, it started as I was driving home from work, I was waiting at some traffic lights and I turned on my Sat Nav and programmed in my home address, then every time the cyber lady gave me a direction, where-ever possible I did the opposite. Giggling like a maniac, I ended up in the middle of nowhere, miles from home. My phone ringing continuously and out of petrol.
The next day whilst walking my dogs across fields near my home, I decided that I would hang myself in my favourite field when I came to it with my dog’s lead. The decision really was made that simply and I was deadly serious. As I walked up the lane toward the field, twenty or-so cows were exiting the field with a farmer. I decided I wasn’t mean’t to do it that day. Would I have followed through, had he not been there? Here and now, I think not.
I made an appointment with the doctor the next day and he prescribed anti-depressants, and registered me with a therapist. Of course I didn’t follow up with the therapist, I couldn’t face it. I took the tablets though, they pretty much turned me into a complete zombie for a week or so, then they just made me very compliant. I was an excellent employee, mother and wife - (although they stripped me of my libido), but there was nothing left of ME. After a year I stopped taking them.
Now, when I get very low, I no longer see medication as an option. Which could be regarded as selfish, but it forced me to come to the realisation that the people in my life that I love and who love me couldn’t survive if I didn’t keep going, grumpy, teary, quiet, angry or happy. I just have to keep breathing, not really too much to ask of me.
So my advice, in all honesty would be to look outwardly at the people around you, it may sound like a talk show sound bite, but giving your love, time, wisdom, and experience to others is the most healthy, and rewarding thing you can do.
I second that!
Welcome Lady P.,
In the dire instances meds in moderation appear effective. I’m suicidal, have been since I was 21. I’m now 69. It doesn’t go away.
I really appreciate your input about your personal experience about the driving tour, which would probably be described as manic and the suicidal ideation as depressive. You’d probably be diagnosed as bipolar.
I’m with you & Jonquil on most meds and am trying to get mine down to a minimum. I agree that natural emotions experienced in shyness or grief are no matter for MI diagnosticians.
If only any med worked as well as a good stiff drink! 
In the short term that helps with grief, shyness, libido., etc. As a habit it is self defeating.
If you are a corporation you want new markets. You can create this by creating a product no one has- a fun gadget, for example - or you can create a market by pathologizing something - dandruff, facial hair, the normal range of women’s bodies (or men’s) and now emotions and behavior. Rarely is this looked at politically. But in the end it is very close to what the Soviets did. They pathologized political attitudes and ‘treated’ them psychiatrically. Frankly…I can respect that more. At least they knew what they were doing and thought it was necessary…here the motive is often money. So if a large percentage of children get bored in school, the kids have an illness.
HOW F…ING CONVENIENT.
Instead of being feedback for the system the children are pathologized.
We no longer strive to make society work for us.
If we are stresssed and or depressed, WE are the problem, we get a diagnosis. We are drugged.
I am sure if we had slavery today most slaves would get diagnoses such as CHRONIC WORK AVOIDANCE SYNDROME, OWNER PHOBIA, PSYCHOTIC RACE BASED DISTURBANCES, POST SALE DEPRESSION SYNDROME, ROLE RESISTENCE DISORDER, and of course ADD, ADHD, Mood disorders,
AND THEY WOULD ALL BE ON MEDICATION.
Moreno,
I appreciated the truth of your statement and satire. We do live in a society in which profit is more important than people. The handful of 60s kids (Most were just along for the ride.) who wanted to be real humans, warts and all, sold out to the we can make you better flimflam. Many are now successful business people. Nothing wrong with that other than the fact that corporations are hucksters. The dream was not only deferred as Langston Hughes noted, it died! The dream MLK envisioned was about economic equality, not about the sick distortion of the American dream that still prevails.
Is there any country left on Earth that has not succumbed to this BS?