Mohammed, Islam & Questions

[aspacia]

@scythekain

@thirst4metal

Who claimed that any one was greater than any of the others?

certainly no more than judaism is credible because it’s founded on the fictional character of abraham/moses.

Chuckle, and this will sound odd coming from a Deist, but I do believe that they existed, and that much of the Bible, like the flood occured. Jews were very scrupulous regarding their records and oral tradition. This is why they ridiculed Mohammed. Also, much archeology supports the fact that many of the cities listed in the Bible, similar to Troy, existed. Science supports the flood theory because of the layer of soil found at a certain level, suddenly appeared and fossil evidence support it too. Additionally, all cultures have a flood myth, a flood of huge proportion where only a few survivied.

I am claiming that Mohammed, like the religious INVENTORS before him, borrowed from a ‘credible’ source to give his new religion credibility. I don’t think I made this clear or you really misunderstood. Who said this makes them greater than or less than any other religion?

I agree with this claim, and also find the arrogance of many of the religious distasteful. ISLAM is not better than any other faith, I am so sick of so many Muslims taking this stance.

I didn’t, I meant that they themselves claim superiority over other religions

You bet your sweet ass they do, and they are often more vocal than many other religious sects. Try perusing Palestinina Watch for insight into the crap many of their imams teach. “Kill Jews, subjegate all other faiths.”

You are saying all Muslims? Most Muslins? Half of the Muslims? Some Muslims? I disagree–the search of freedom through religion has ALWAYS been the same for all of the Abrahamic religions. Full worship of god = reward of land = glory to the people. Your generalization is fallacious… and unwelcome.

You will enjoy The Trouble With Islam.

while Judaism and Christianity are rarely literally practicing the bible, sects of Islam still are. Why do you fail to see this as a problem?

Yes, I have found this to be true as many believe the Qur’an to be the actual word of God.

The Muslims are still doing it and the fundie jews are doing it by supplanting muslims/palestinians from Israel to move in jews.

80% of the current Israeli population is living on land they legally purchased before Israel declared its independence. Jews, and much of the West has tried to purchase more land. The Arab governments and religious leaders issued death fatwas against any Arab who sells land, even to a third party, that falls into Jewish hands.

freeman.org/m_online/jul01/freund2.htm
mythbustingthemideast.com/tp … l#refugees

Here is the Arab/Palestinian Charter.
state.gov/p/nea/rls/22573.htm

It does not recognize the State of Israel. The bolded sections are the ones deleated. You really should read regarding the history surrounding this conflict.

I disagree, I think each religion at it’s core is fatally flawed.

There is good and bad in all religions.

@T4M

From what I have read and been explained, Islam can coexist with any government. What do you base your claim on that it “MUST” be a central part of the government?

No, if Islam insist on Qur’anic laws, it cannot peacefully coexist with other faiths. Even the Canadian chapter of CAIR, tried to implement Sharia law into Canada. It can exist if it accepts secular law supercedes God’s law, and many Muslims, even those living in the secular west disagree with this.

Look around the Arab world, how many secular governments do you see?

Q5. from the research I’ve done it used to be a majority that thought it was not written by him, and most of it was written much later after his death. but that was supplanted by what would become the violent arm of Islam in the 1100 - 1200 range… I’d have to search for the source on that.

Actually, this occured around 1050. Liberal thinkers in Islam were tortured or murdered during this time by fundamentalists. Muslims have been oppressing each other and others for centuries.

They need time to evolve into secularism like so many other faiths.

[aspacia]

@AVICENNA A.D.

(Q1) I don’t know thirst, were the Meccans, Medinans, and generally the Arabs of the peninsula really threatened by Christianity to that extent? Judaism seemed to be penetrating these tribes much more than Christianity (doctrine wise, not militarily). Abyssinia was a relatively near Christian kingdom. The sitting King was rather tolerant, and was not the crusader/conquest type of guy. Please offer more historical insights on the Christian threat at the time, I personally do not find your characterization to be the case, as far as having such a great threat to Arabs that Mohammad felt the need to unify Arabia for purposes of defense from Christianity (or even as a secondary motivator, or motivation in part; by default…). I will take the position that Christianity did not pose such an imminent threat so that I can draw a rebuttal from you, so that we can gauge the role of “the Christian threat” at the time.

I actually agree with you. They were traders, slaves and a few pilgrims.

(Q1) continued----This characterization assumes a great deal about Mohammad, namely, his life circumstances, geography, his having access to literature from Judaism and Christianity, and his contact with other religions. Your paragraph above also assumes that Mohammad was literate. In fact, Mohammad was illiterate, this is a historically confirmed fact (so far as historians have power). As for geography, how much contact did Mohammad really have with Jews and Christians? He lived in Mecca. Mecca was an idol worshipping society with no real Christian or Jewish presence. He did travel as a merchant, but I implore you to confirm if his travels were long enough for him to correspond (orally, since he was illiterate) with Jews and Christians for long enough, frequently enough, and effectively to include the texts in the very lengthy Qur’an.

He did have contact and did hear their religious discussions, this is also proven. How often, or how much is not known.

Mohammed is a very intelligent person and gets the best of these older, credible religions to form his new religion which will require a lot of submission to god in order to equal the fervor of Christians and Jews. Mohammed, a righteous man, develops his notion of god interspersed with some of the Christian notions and Jewish notions.

(1) His vision of god is furthered and he truly believes that god is glorified.

Agreed, whether he is a false Prophet or real, unless he really pulled one on us.
[/quote]

As did many other religious prophets.

Disagree. Mecca was not a Christian nor Jewish society in any significant, or even insignificant way. The Abrahamic tradition was seen as non sense by the Meccans, that is, if Meccans largely knew about either of Christianity or Judaism. Rather, Mohammad was almost killed and Muslims suffered persecution etc. by the idol worshipping Meccans for introducing these ideas. If I take (2) in another sense however, meaning, Islam was not some new radical idea out of nowhere, people learned that thousands nearby follow these ideas, I agree with you.

The Meccans were pagan and did persecute Muslims, similarly, the Romans persecuted Christians and Jews.

(3) The notions of god that Mohammed has developed has alllowed him to pick and choose which doctrines found in the Gospels and the Torah will actually benefit his people.

(Q2) answered here----But there’s an assumption in (3). Namely, that Mohammad did the choosing, and was not instructed to do so by Angel Gabriel who delivered the message from God. The Qur’an pretty much contains the Old Testament if you read it, it is not much deviated except for the parts that talk about God in an anthropomorphic manner, namely, God created the world in six days, the rested, etc.

You are way off in that the Qur’an differs from the Torah big time. Read it and compare it to the Torah. The base is there, Adam, Eve, Creation, but it is not in chronological order and adds much regarding cranes, the moon, etc.

In any case, the picking and choosing charge, in my opinion, would not really help him much. Had Mohammad included the Old Testament as was at the time in Jerusalem for instance, taken it, stuck it in with his verses, and called it the Qur’an. The “new” Islamic verses (I use this term not to draw a distinction between the verses Mohammad received and the stories of the old Prophets, Muslims consider the Old Testament stories as part of Islam since Muslims are to believe in them) to my knowledge did not really pose a conflict with the Old Testament that the Jews held, and Christians accepted at the time. Point is, there was no utilitarian/functional interest of significance for Mohammad to “nip and tuck” the Old Testament.

Sure there was, to create new faith in which he would control and dictate.

The New is a whole different story. There were more than one alterations, or as Muslims would deem them: restorations. Example: Muslims believe in the Virgin Mary, immaculate conception, and venerate Jesus as a Prophet of God, not the son since this denotes God as some sort of human type. So as for the New Testament, there were alterations made.

Actually, on another board, BBC religion and ethics, no they do not believe in the immaculate conception, similar to Jews.

But thirst, why would Mohammad go through all this instead of just taking the Gospels and preaching Jesus is the son of God, all the Xian views, etc.? Why start this new religion if his only interest is unity, order, and as we all will find, to establish social order, to serve the wayfarer, to accept all as equals, to “walk with ho’s and Arabs” etc.

Hum, what is the law, half the booty goes to Mohammed.

Wouldn’t helping spread an already established faith be more practical. Wouldn’t taking Christianity as was, give more credibilty than its edition (Islam)? I look forward to a rebuttal from anyone to get either my or thirsts position grounded regarding the beneficiality (is that a real word) of “changing” the Torah, Bible.

You asked for it, but at the moment I am back at work. Here is the quick and dirty, he marries a very rich woman, granted she asked, Robert E. Lee did the same thing. He becomes prominent, but not promonent enough to his liking. Smark cookie thinks, has heard Christians and Jews discussing their faiths and he likes the balance more than the pagan chaos going on around him. Hum, how can I bring more stability to my world my life???Hum, I will create a new faith, a faith which I will dominate, and change the rules to please me and increast my following, booty and all those nice slave women to satisty my libido.

Reveletion, I will become a prophet.

(4) Islam unites his people under one cause (which is a source of strength).

True. But Mohammad wanted to unite the world by allowing religious freedom. Many do not know this, but Mohammad and the Muslims had an alliance with a very powerful Jewish tribe in Medina. In fact, the head Rabbi and Mohammad joined forces and their men fought alongside one another at one point.

Yes they did. Also, they helped in the overthrow of Spain.

His people were already free. They were free idol worshippers. Mohammad was from the Quraish tribe (who later turned on him for starting Islam). The Quraish tribe was the head dominant tribe, the tribe of power and wealth. So if we are to speak of “Mohammad’s people,” his people were the aristocracy. He fought for social justice, against slavery, against female infanticide (female infanticide outlawed and punishable by death once Islamic laws were enforced).

He enslaved many, and had numerous concubines. Justice was second class citizenship for Jews.

Slavery, however did continue, however, to some degree, in some places as Islam rapidly spread. What accounts for its toleration even in its slightest of instances? Or why it could not be enforced? I don’t know.

Typical hypocrisy and greed. This practice became extinct in Judaism.

But for one who might take the cynical position that Mohammad was a functionary (as many here will I suspect), I would offer the following response: We must realize

I really hate dictumes, “Must”

that as a leader, Mohammad had to bring change in a temperate and strategic manner, so as not to draw chaos and rebellion. The laws on alcohol are a perfect example. It was not unconditionally outlawed at first (though slavery was, at least in proclamation). At first, you couldn’t come to Friday prayer drunk, then you can’t come to the mosque drunk, then you can’t pray drunk (prayer 5 times throughout day, kinda hard to sober up with prayer one hour away) then no alcohol at all (don’t quote me step by step). Mohammad was instituting change that he intended continue upward for the long term. Therefore, one might point out that he was not a total deontologist. But in response to “leading his people to freedom,” I would say that his people were already free, more, they were powerful and wealthy. He fought for people outside of his circle.

And demanded fealty, conversion or else second class citizenship or death.

(6) Islam takes advantage (just as all religions do) of the zealots and the fact that mankind is willing to justify ANYTHING for their notion of god.

[quote[Well, this is a claim that has an anchored assumption. All I would do is offer a new starting premise.[/quote]

(7) Zealots were necessary with the early followers: wars needed fighting, god needed defending, and land needed to be reclaimed.

Ah, like the Crusaders.

We look at Mohammad’s life, while he was alive, war mongerers, zealots, etc. were contained and/or marginalized. But as soon as Mohammad died, there was an election where Ali was not present, a disagreement by those who favored him (hence split: Sunni vs. Shi’a) and it was human business as usual after that. Mohammad started a revolution for social justice, after his death, leaders sought the basics: wealth, power, influence and domination, and within years, Islam became an empire, seeking land and exerting influence on the world…business as usual my friends, not a Muslim invention. But we must focus on the legacy of Mohammad, what he preached while alive.

There you go again with the “musts”

Much of what you claim is in The Trouble With Islam

Q3: Is it unfair to compare Islam to Mormons? I mean that both religions claim to have the last revelation from god.

Well, as we know, its a matter of faith. The allusion in Q3 is that these religions are man made. But in this instance, more common sense is applicable. The Mormons have some ideas that are what I call “leaving the reservation.” I won’t get into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, but thirst, there is quite a difference in the claims these two faiths make. Mohammad instituted many normative, civil laws that were practical.

And many resemble Mormonism, polygamy, no alcohol, new revelations. this is not a long shot.

Jurisprudence is a big part of Islam. And contrary to popular belief, women were given many rights as an example, including right to own their own property, inheritance rights, right to marry a person of choice, to refuse a suitor, right to divorce, etc.

Ditto Mormonism.

These just roll off our backs now as we read this, but this was big news then, you must

Oh, Please, stop with the “must” and “shoulds.”

attempt to appreciate how radical this was then. Further, as for honor killings we have today, sexual purity was a big deal to pre-Islamic Arabia. The culture survived. Muslims do not have a monopoly over fascination with virgins. Consider the Aztecs who held virgin girls in such high esteem, they threw them into fire pits for the gods. But extremists aside, virginity is valued cross culturally in my opinion. Why? That’s for the psych. forum maybe. As for Islam, accusing a girl for hanky panky for example was always a big deal in Arabia, far prior to Islam.

And occured in Christianity, Judaism, probably in many other faiths as well.

Honor killings did not begin with the birth of Islam. Hell, they were burying female babies alive in pre-Islamic Arabia because they were seen as a burden. The lack of value of females, their degradation, etc. did not begin at sexual maturity for these people. Islam halted these crimes.

No, it still continues in Islam and very little punishment is exacted in Islamic countries.

The new Islamic jurisprudence required three eye witnesses for such accusations of infidelity, pre-marital sex, etc.

And a woman has to provide three eye witnesses against a rapist. How often does a rapist rape with witnesses around?

This, as you can imagine, made it very difficult to prove a womans guilt of such a crime. Women enjoyed far more protections and benefits in many respects.

Yes, in its heyday, the Islamic world provided more protections to women than the Christian Medieval Times.

There is more to Islam than Fox News and CNN reporting a Muslim is holding a journalist hostage for religious purposes today. It has had such appeal since its birth, and Islam is the fastest growing religion not only in the world today, but also in America. I invite you all to see why.

I don’t know, Mormonism is growing very fast as well. Just because something is popular, the old lets jump on the bandwagon, does not make it right.

I would implore you all to investigate this religion as you do a work of philosophy. Give it careful consideration. Study of Islam requires what study of philosophy does: patience, temperance, and the resistance to come to hastily drawn conclusions, among other things. We have thousands of years of interpretations on ancient philosophy being debated.

But in most of the current Islamic world, debate is usually met with fatwas and the name apostate.

Islam is not

Again, stop with the “musts,” “shoulds,” and “nots.” This alienate many educated individuals.

to be viewed by an intimidating sounding sentence in the Qur’an, deemed bigoted, and discarded. It is as complex as ancient Greek philosophy, if not moreso. Islam demands such scholarship in study.

I challenge you to read The Trouble With Islam, have you the courage?

Also, I have asked two questions posted on two Islamic web sites, NO RESPONSE. In contrast I have asked similar questions on Jewish, Christian, Buddhist boards and have had several responses.

Why the secrecy???

[scythekain]

I think a worldwide flood is ludicrous, there were probably many LARGE floods as the ice age drew to a close, and the one they think the bible flood is from is the story of the flood of gilgamesh.

They’ve also found proof of a massive black sea flood, basically there was a massive rock damn blocking out the mediterenean from the black sea. It was about 200 ft lower than it’s modern level and they’ve found ruins on a plateau under the water.

The other place that experienced a massive flood that disproves the worldwide flood is the northwest united states. There was a massive ice damn in minnesota (lake missoula).

inthegorge.com/ice_age_floods.html

“At its greatest extent, Glacial Lake Missoula stretched eastward a distance of some 200 miles, essentially creating an inland sea.”

I’m sure there were other events that happened like this that were written into the cultural memory of every culture.

[aspacia]

@scythekain

I think a worldwide flood is ludicrous, there were probably many LARGE floods as the ice age drew to a close, and the one they think the bible flood is from is the story of the flood of gilgamesh.

Hey, Skyth, you are entitled to your opinion, but do your have any valid scientific links to help enlighten me. I am an English/history person and my recent link to science stems from the National Geographic.

I am really asking.

They’ve also found proof of a massive black sea flood, basically there was a massive rock damn blocking out the mediterenean from the black sea. It was about 200 ft lower than it’s modern level and they’ve found ruins on a plateau under the water.

Yes, I have read reading this, but the sediments found regarding the world wide flood stem from similar sediments found in a particular layer of earth, like the Morrison layer differs from other fossil find layers. I am unclear as I am not a geographer or geologist.

The other place that experienced a massive flood that disproves the worldwide flood is the northwest united states. There was a massive ice damn in minnesota (lake missoula).

Can you provide a link, I really do not know and am asking.

inthegorge.com/ice_age_floods.html

Okay, I will take a look, but does it disprove the worlwide flood? I will peruse this tomorrow. I am drawing from a geography fieldtrip class I took into Arizona, Utah, Colorado, and what the professor said. No, he was not religious at all.

“At its greatest extent, Glacial Lake Missoula stretched eastward a distance of some 200 miles, essentially creating an inland sea.”

I’m sure there were other events that happened like this that were written into the cultural memory of every culture.

Ah, yes, but I am talking about a significant layer in the earth’s sediment.

Thanks for the link, I will read it tomorrow.

Smiles,

aspacia
a

[scythekain]

think about it this way… remember that the world used to be pangea… the land mass grew, oceans turned into deserts, deserts turned into oceans. There’s no doubt that the earth has been ravaged by water and the oceans have at one time or another covered large portions of it.

The problem is the oceans covering ALL of it. There’s simply not enough water. Not to mention the impossibility of every species on the planet now fitting on the cramped ark. with food and litter taken into account? impossible.

[aspacia]

@scythekain

think about it this way… remember that the world used to be pangea… the land mass grew, oceans turned into deserts, deserts turned into oceans. There’s no doubt that the earth has been ravaged by water and the oceans have at one time or another covered large portions of it.

The problem is the oceans covering ALL of it. There’s simply not enough water. Not to mention the impossibility of every species on the planet now fitting on the cramped ark. with food and litter taken into account? impossible.

Great point. I believe that Noah probably existed, but the man is the small kernal of truth in the legend. Similar to Hercules, Sampson, etc. Most legends have a small bit of fact to them.

I will have to research more regarding what the prof. told me as this is outside my discipline.