Reforming Democracy

[Mentat_Monkey]

Reforming democracy might be better seen from a birdseye view of what it should look like, or at least it would be more fruitful than grumbling reactions about the behaviours of particular assholes in the world.

Firstly, to quote some old fart general “You fight with the army you have, not the army you want.” There are plenty of assholes around and many seek out positions of power no matter what system you put in place. Complaining that someone in power is an asshole is like complaining that the sky is blue. So build a system that can ‘safely’ be run by corrupt assholes. Capitalism is actually brilliant for controlling assholes, it limits power to how much money you have rather than the previous “do everything I say or you die” systems. And rather than hoarding limited resources assholes actually want you to take their physical resources in exchange for numbers in a computer somewhere. Capitalism convinces assholes to actually help society in exchange for what is essentially point scoring.

So reforming “democracy”… so what we’d really be arguing about is how people live their lives. What should individuals be able to decide for themselves, what things should be chosen by popularity (aka. you getting to decide how other people live) or should official decision makers be chosen by popularity instead.
The question then comes down to which areas of life are each of these a better idea. You don’t want a committee choosing what you have for breakfast or what you wear, and it can also be argued that criminals shouldn’t be dealt with by the victims of the crime but by a theoretically objective third party.

While it could be argued that democracy is interfering with people’s lives, people are always going to try to control other people, and when there’s no power structure there’s a power vacuum just waiting for some other controlling bastards to come and fill.

So perhaps the question is how do you not just allow but force individuals to fill up some of that power vacuum themselves, even if they don’t want to, for the sake of making sure there’s no power vacuum to be had. Arming the population is one way. The creation of a publicly funded urban military is another. Countries with no police often have gangs or militias in control instead, an unprotected populace is easy pickings for assholes.

Part of democracy’s beauty is it’s anonymity, it’s ability to avoid the social pressures that come with being the first to speak out or with backing an unpopular opinion. To mould society to fit what people actually want rather than what they may feel pressured to say if their answer would effect their reputation.

The internet could be the greatest step forward in democracy in history, so I partly think reforming democracy means how do we create a online system that uniquely identifies individuals in a way that guarantees there is only one vote per person, yet also keeps them socially anonymous.
I think we have the technology now to allow people to fill out a servey about what their individual opinions are in order of importance. With a sufficient system there would no longer be a question of “what do people need” but how best to deal with what they need. Then again this system is prone to people often not having a clue about what they actually need, with advertising’s ability to sway opinion more than anyone cares to admit.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Capitalism aiding democracy will help make better societies?

Ah yes, the belief in extreme privatization and self interested corporate power centralization will somehow magically overnight concern itself with the general public good.

Thanks, I had a good chuckle reading all of that.

[Eric_The_Pipe]

@HaHaHa

Capitalism aiding democracy will help make better societies?

Ah yes, the belief in extreme privatization and self interested corporate power centralization will somehow magically overnight concern itself with the general public good.

Thanks, I had a good chuckle reading all of that.

So your alternative is that self interested centralized power will suddenly over night concern itself with the general public good, simply because its government instead of corporate?

The corporations want nothing more than my money, which I can individually choose to give them… With the government, I’ve got to convince my neighbor not to vote to take my money. Government is a zero sum game, corporations at least want to trade. (Unless we create a government controlled capitalism system, in which the corporation makes deals with the government to take my money. Which is the crony capitalistic system we currently often play in, due to fools thinking that if we just give a little more power to government the corporations will fall in line, magically.)

[Mictlantecuhtli]

@Eric_The_Pipe

@HaHaHa

Capitalism aiding democracy will help make better societies?

Ah yes, the belief in extreme privatization and self interested corporate power centralization will somehow magically overnight concern itself with the general public good.

Thanks, I had a good chuckle reading all of that.

So your alternative is that self interested centralized power will suddenly over night concern itself with the general public good, simply because its government instead of corporate?

The corporations want nothing more than my money, which I can individually choose to give them… With the government, I’ve got to convince my neighbor not to vote to take my money. Government is a zero sum game, corporations at least want to trade. (Unless we create a government controlled capitalism system, in which the corporation makes deals with the government to take my money. Which is the crony capitalistic system we currently often play in, due to fools thinking that if we just give a little more power to government the corporations will fall in line, magically.)

No, my position is that all governments are corrupt including democracy in not being worth a damn.

I speak from an anarchist point of view.

Also, corporations control all facets of government. Politicians are nothing but money whores for corporate lobbyists.

[Eric_The_Pipe]

@HaHaHa

@Eric_The_Pipe

@HaHaHa

Capitalism aiding democracy will help make better societies?

Ah yes, the belief in extreme privatization and self interested corporate power centralization will somehow magically overnight concern itself with the general public good.

Thanks, I had a good chuckle reading all of that.

So your alternative is that self interested centralized power will suddenly over night concern itself with the general public good, simply because its government instead of corporate?

The corporations want nothing more than my money, which I can individually choose to give them… With the government, I’ve got to convince my neighbor not to vote to take my money. Government is a zero sum game, corporations at least want to trade. (Unless we create a government controlled capitalism system, in which the corporation makes deals with the government to take my money. Which is the crony capitalistic system we currently often play in, due to fools thinking that if we just give a little more power to government the corporations will fall in line, magically.)

No, my position is that all governments are corrupt including democracy in not being worth a damn.

I speak from an anarchist point of view.

Which would just result in choosing in different groups and, at best, democracy of one sort or another. That is how civilization started, actual anarchy, we form groups because it is the most efficient way to live. Governments are formed so that as the group members deal with each other, they can without killing piggy. All governments are run by individuals with personal goals and desires, this can lead to corruption. As has hopefully been noted, the U.S. is not a Democracy for that very reason, we are a constitutional representative republic, with multiple branches that are supposed to balance each other in power… Ideally this limits the damage of the natural corruption of individualistic goals.

(Side note: please tell me you are not white and skinny. The one group of people that would be eaten alive first in a true anarchy are too often the fools that claim to want it. Suggest you are a well trained, big or something that would confirm you wouldn’t die five seconds after anarchy started. I’ve just known too many stupid skinny white teenagers that think anarchy is “cool”… Bloody Idiots.)

[zinnat]

@Eric_The_Pipe

(Side note: please tell me you are not white and skinny. The one group of people that would be eaten alive first in a true anarchy are too often the fools that claim to want it. Suggest you are a well trained, big or something that would confirm you wouldn’t die five seconds after anarchy started. I’ve just known too many stupid skinny white teenagers that think anarchy is “cool”… Bloody Idiots.)

Well said.

In most of the cases, immature people do not realize what exactly would be the implications of their fantasies. They just want the change because of being unsatisfied from the present system, thus ready to support all new ideologies, even if those are worse.

With love,
Sanjay

[Eric_The_Pipe]

@zinnat

@Eric_The_Pipe

(Side note: please tell me you are not white and skinny. The one group of people that would be eaten alive first in a true anarchy are too often the fools that claim to want it. Suggest you are a well trained, big or something that would confirm you wouldn’t die five seconds after anarchy started. I’ve just known too many stupid skinny white teenagers that think anarchy is “cool”… Bloody Idiots.)

Well said.

In most of the cases, immature people do not realize what exactly would be the implications of their fantasies. They just want the change because of being unsatisfied from the present system, thus ready to support all new ideologies, even if those are worse.

With love,
Sanjay

There are far too many people that hate something without understanding what options are available, and that often, those options are worse than the current system. Asking “as opposed to what?” is an important question.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

sighs People and their stereotypes.

I am white and skinny but I’m also a guy that knows how to use a knife severing through skin, flesh, muscle, and bone.

I’m the type of guy I could tell you which place is the fastest through the cerebral cord to cut through in order to get instant paralysis on the thing in question being dissected.

I’m the type of guy that likes rifles and shooting from long distances where there are certain nightscopes that shoot just as good at night as they would during the day.

I’m the type of guy I like reading and studying on poisons. You want to know what an interesting subject is? Neurotoxins.

Still think the skinny white guy doesn’t amount to much?

I’ll get to your other points at a later time.

[Eric_The_Pipe]

@HaHaHa

sighs People and their stereotypes.

Sure, except that this is from my personal observations done over a long period of time. The people most often in desire of “anarchy” are the ones least able to survive in such a setting, more, they are unsophisticated in their desire… The one exclusion was a 6’ black guy that was ex-military that was (at the time) working on his medical degree… He actually seemed together enough understand… We had a lot of good talks, good guy all around.

@HaHaHa

I am white and skinny but I’m also a guy that knows how to use a knife severing through skin, flesh, muscle, and bone.

I’m the type of guy I could tell you which place is the fastest through the cerebral cord to cut through in order to get instant paralysis on the thing in question being dissected.

I’m the type of guy that likes rifles and shooting from long distances where there are certain nightscopes that shoot just as good at night as they would during the day.

I’m the type of guy I like reading and studying on poisons. You want to know what an interesting subject is? Neurotoxins.

Still think the skinny white guy doesn’t amount to much?

Well, at least that’s something… You say you spend time on more than just half-baked ideas.

[Mimisbrunnr]

@HaHaHa

sighs People and their stereotypes.

I am white and skinny but I’m also a guy that knows how to use a knife severing through skin, flesh, muscle, and bone.

I’m the type of guy I could tell you which place is the fastest through the cerebral cord to cut through in order to get instant paralysis on the thing in question being dissected.

I’m the type of guy that likes rifles and shooting from long distances where there are certain nightscopes that shoot just as good at night as they would during the day.

I’m the type of guy I like reading and studying on poisons. You want to know what an interesting subject is? Neurotoxins.

Still think the skinny white guy doesn’t amount to much?

I’ll get to your other points at a later time.

Qualifying you are white and skinny with “but I’m also a guy that knows how to use a knife severing through skin, flesh, muscle, and bone” and the rest in this context, in my mind serves to actually reinforce the stereotype Eric_The_Pipe was referring to. I find that usually this type of person is very easily prompted to respond with the same type of awkwardly grandiose language and incorrect nomenclature as the above quote.

Skin, flesh, muscle and bone? Why stop there, why not include tendons and ligaments? Cerebral cord? Instant paralysis? It doesn’t really sound like you are a physiology buff, though I suppose you don’t have to be to sever a spinal cord, though the ‘best’ location all depends on what you are trying to paralyze exactly. Shooting from long distances where there are certain nightscopes that shoot just as good at night as they would during the day? Wha?? I can show you my shooting medals and awards, can you show me yours? I suppose you don’t have to be an avid shooter or competitive shooter, but it certainly helps.

It sounds like you want to sound like you know what you are talking about, but I’m really not seeing it in your language.

[gib]

Hi everyone, great conversation! I’ve been traveling for the past couple of days, haven’t had time to reply. Might or might not reply soon.

[gib]

Is there a name for the type of political system in which elections take place? I want to use the term “democracy” but apparently that’s a dirty word around here. Ok, so you’re not a democracy, but can I call you a democratic republic? Ok fine, a constitutional representative democratic republic… just something to get the idea across that you sometimes take a democratic approach to solving certain problems. For example, who should be President. You (supposedly) take a democratic approach in the sense that you put it to a vote. Or passing new laws. You put it to a vote (not a popular one, at least not all the time, from what I understand). This doesn’t make the system a democracy (in the sense that everything is decided on the whims of the majority, or largest minority), but it is the preferred approach in the limited context of specific decisions, preferred because it seems the best of all alternatives, alternatives like someone taking the Presidency by force and terror. I mean, if you can’t make everyone happy, you might as well go with the next best thing, try to please a majority.

And of course, I’m not saying your system actually runs according to this prescription, but I want a term that denotes the idea of such a system so that I don’t have to always go with “a republic in which specific important decisions are determined by vote, sometimes popular, sometimes not.” ← That’s just too wordy.

[Eric_The_Pipe]

@gib

Is there a name for the type of political system in which elections take place?

Democracy

@gib

I want to use the term “democracy” but apparently that’s a dirty word around here.

Use it any way, dirty words are fucking fine with me.

@gib

Ok, so you’re not a democracy, but can I call you a democratic republic? Ok fine, a constitutional representative democratic republic…

Democracy is the voting system of this particular Constitutional Representative Republic… It’s important not just because pure democracy is mob rule, but because it is clear in the communication of what we are talking about. I’ve spent far to many hours listening to (and so many fighting with) people bitching about, “this doesn’t represent the democratic process” and other such nonsence. A show I watch is called Adam Ruins Everything, were he spent an entire episode bitching about the Presidential Voting process not living up to democratic ideal… Even pointed out that our founders set it up this way on purpose. Failing the whole time to explain why they didn’t do this. Right now Democracy is a idealized idea (weird to type it that way) with people who have never really lived with it putting it up on a pedestal, and as is common with the US education system, they don’t understand the consequences of the idea being put in place… So, ass holes, like me, turn into bigger ass holes, as we point out, that is not the type of place we live in, nor is it actually one we want to live in…

@gib

Just something to get the idea across that you sometimes take a democratic approach to solving certain problems.

We call it the U.S.

@gib

For example, who should be President. You (supposedly) take a democratic approach in the sense that you put it to a vote.

Done via Delegates, which are representations of our will, which yes we sorta democratically vote for (Colorado GOP has a really complicated system for its delegates which I recently worked my way up through).

@gib

Or passing new laws.

Which is done via the Representative part at the federal level, and even in most states.

@gib

You put it to a vote (not a popular one, at least not all the time, from what I understand). This doesn’t make the system a democracy (in the sense that everything is decided on the whims of the majority, or largest minority), but it is the preferred approach in the limited context of specific decisions, preferred because it seems the best of all alternatives, alternatives like someone taking the Presidency by force and terror. I mean, if you can’t make everyone happy, you might as well go with the next best thing, try to please a majority.

Pleasing the largest group is just populism, but there have been moments where that swayed the day… On the actual point you are making:

We, the US, use democracy for parts of our system, but what we are is a Constitutional Representative Republic. We are not a democracy. We also use English words but we are not the English language. If you are referring the the whole US, and trying to “reform” us, I suggest you start from a different place than if you are attempting to “reform” democracy. Just as if you were to attempt to reform us, I would suggest starting with a different place than if you are attempting to reform English… If you want a name that includes all the screwed up aspects that are the US, I suggest The United States of America, (USA or just US for short).

@gib

And of course, I’m not saying your system actually runs according to this prescription, but I want a term that denotes the idea of such a system so that I don’t have to always go with “a republic in which specific important decisions are determined by vote, sometimes popular, sometimes not.” ← That’s just too wordy.

If you did use the whole thing you’d have me laughing every time… Though I could see how my entertainment wouldn’t be as important.

Wow, my reply was rather cheeky… I’ll have to think about that…

[gib]

@Eric_The_Pipe

Use it any way, dirty words are fucking fine with me.

You dirty, dirty boy.

@Eric_The_Pipe

Democracy is the voting system of this particular Constitutional Representative Republic… It’s important not just because pure democracy is mob rule, but because it is clear in the communication of what we are talking about. I’ve spent far to many hours listening to (and so many fighting with) people bitching about, “this doesn’t represent the democratic process” and other such nonsence. Hmmm… so this mistaken idea is being used as a political ploy? A show I watch is called Adam Ruins Everything, were he spent an entire episode bitching about the Presidential Voting process not living up to democratic ideal… Was this guy Christian? I mean, with the reference to Adam and all? Even pointed out that our founders set it up this way on purpose. Failing the whole time to explain why they didn’t do this. What are your suspicions about this guy–is he deliberately and consciously lying or does he believe his own bullshit? Right now Democracy is a idealized idea (weird to type it that way) what, with typing ‘a’ instead of ‘an’?.. Sorry, just being an ass. with people who have never really lived with it putting it up on a pedestal, and as is common with the US education system, they don’t understand the consequences of the idea being put in place… ← That right there is the problem. So, ass holes, like me, turn into bigger ass holes, as we point out, that is not the type of place we live in, nor is it actually one we want to live in…

Yeah, I’ll agree that you’re an asshole.

@Eric_The_Pipe

We call it the U.S.

Yeah, but I don’t think you want me going around calling this or that political system “U.S.-ism”.

@Eric_The_Pipe

Done via Delegates, which are representations of our will, which yes we sorta democratically vote for (Colorado GOP has a really complicated system for its delegates which I recently worked my way up through).

Oh? Do tell (or would that be dangerous? ).

@Eric_The_Pipe

Which is done via the Representative part at the federal level, and even in most states.

Interesting. What do you mean by “most states”?

@Eric_The_Pipe

Pleasing the largest group is just populism, but there have been moments where that swayed the day…

Yes, but what else can a government aim for than pleasing the largest group of people?

@Eric_The_Pipe

We, the US, use democracy for parts of our system, but what we are is a Constitutional Representative Republic. Ok, so can we say this? America is a Constitutional Representative Republic with democracy as one of its political tools? ← Not sure if that’s any less wordy but I think it’s a hell of a lot more elegant. We also use English words but we are not the English language. Is this where you call me arrogant? If you are referring the the whole US, and trying to “reform” us, I suggest you start from a different place than if you are attempting to “reform” democracy. Just as if you were to attempt to reform us, I would suggest starting with a different place than if you are attempting to reform English… If you want a name that includes all the screwed up aspects that are the US, I suggest The United States of America, (USA or just US for short).

Well, no, I don’t think I’m referring to the whole US, I think I’m referring to, I guess, Western politics in general. I started this thread noticing some of the alarming conspiracies taking place in American politics today. I have James to thank for this. But my focus has consistently been, more or less, on American politics in particular. Why? Because you guys rule the world.

I just got back from a two week vacation in the Bahamas. My parents own a condo by the beach. All day–when we weren’t lounging at the beach, or shopping in town, or hitting the night clubs–we were in the condo with the TV channeled to CNN. I guess this is my dad’s pass time: watching CNN. He’s retired, so he has nothing better to do. All that I remembered being aired (and I’m sure we changed the channel now and then but…) was about Trump’s rise and downfall (even Mexico is making fun of him as I understand it now). So you see that the rest of the world–non-Americans–are being fed a huge dose of American media and current events. In Canada, that’s certainly true, and apparently it’s true in the Bahamas as well.

What you have to realize is that this is true of many other Western countries as well–not just Canadians and Bahamians (not to be confused with Bohemians).

The consequence is this: there is a public–I might even say global–perception that America rules the world and dictate the mode of conduct for people to follow–essential, you’ve gone global! Congrats! :

So, no, I’m not talking about America in particular–but it just so happens to be a fact that America runs the show today, and so the main focus of the task of studying Western politics (democracies, republics, the Renaissance, the Enlightenment) should definitely start with American politics today.

@Eric_The_Pipe

Wow, my reply was rather cheeky… I’ll have to think about that…

What does cheeky mean?

[Eric_The_Pipe]

@gib

@Eric_The_Pipe

Use it any way, dirty words are fucking fine with me.

You dirty, dirty boy.

@gib

@Eric_The_Pipe

Democracy is the voting system of this particular Constitutional Representative Republic… It’s important not just because pure democracy is mob rule, but because it is clear in the communication of what we are talking about. I’ve spent far to many hours listening to (and so many fighting with) people bitching about, “this doesn’t represent the democratic process” and other such nonsence.

Hmmm… so this mistaken idea is being used as a political ploy?

Jah, which is probably why it gets so much precision from me.

@gib

@Eric_The_Pipe

A show I watch is called Adam Ruins Everything, were he spent an entire episode bitching about the Presidential Voting process not living up to democratic ideal…

Was this guy Christian? I mean, with the reference to Adam and all?

Nope, just guy. Probably horribly atheist (the kind that isn’t just atheist, but needs to tell non-atheists why they are wrong…) But, it’s fun and marginally informative. The one on getting paid had a great idea that needs to be put into practice…

@gib

@Eric_The_Pipe

Even pointed out that our founders set it up this way on purpose. Failing the whole time to explain why they didn’t do this.

What are your suspicions about this guy–is he deliberately and consciously lying or does he believe his own bullshit?

I think he believes in democracy, honestly believes, its all the rage in the school system… Actually overheard someone saying what we need is more democracy in the middle east. I just about started throwing things…

@gib

@Eric_The_Pipe

Right now Democracy is a idealized idea (weird to type it that way)

what, with typing ‘a’ instead of ‘an’?.. Sorry, just being an ass.

Yes.

I was referring to idealized idea…

@gib

@Eric_The_Pipe

with people who have never really lived with it putting it up on a pedestal, and as is common with the US education system, they don’t understand the consequences of the idea being put in place…

← That right there is the problem.

It is…

@gib

@Eric_The_Pipe

So, ass holes, like me, turn into bigger ass holes, as we point out, that is not the type of place we live in, nor is it actually one we want to live in…

Yeah, I’ll agree that you’re an asshole.

I actually gained a nickname off of a line like this… I have a friend that calls me, “Fuck you, I like Whiskey.”

@gib

@Eric_The_Pipe

We call it the U.S.

Yeah, but I don’t think you want me going around calling this or that political system “U.S.-ism”.

It would amuse me if you did.

@gib

@Eric_The_Pipe

Done via Delegates, which are representations of our will, which yes we sorta democratically vote for (Colorado GOP has a really complicated system for its delegates which I recently worked my way up through).

Oh? Do tell (or would that be dangerous? ).

So, we vote in small precincts, think a 6 block radius, and we vote for a delegate to go to larger sections and vote for other delegates, who then go and vote for the final delegates… Who are actually the people that vote for president…

We also do other things like chose who is going to run for this office of that neighborhood, and so on… It was an amazing process, though semi-disheartening, to see how unprepared the whole damn thing was. It was a bigger crowd than had shown up, ever, apparently and despite knowing in advance how many people where supposed to show it, the amount of people was a problem for to many situations…

@gib

@Eric_The_Pipe

Which is done via the Representative part at the federal level, and even in most states.

Interesting. What do you mean by “most states”?

Each state gets to choose how the laws for that state are created, most, not all (such as Colorado) chose to follow in the foot steps of the US Congress and it’s all Representative. Colorado regularly votes on bills as a state.

@gib

@Eric_The_Pipe

Pleasing the largest group is just populism, but there have been moments where that swayed the day…

Yes, but what else can a government aim for than pleasing the largest group of people?

It depends. I did a report recently, did the work to figure out that the Speaker for the House, easily the second most powerful person in the country, only needs 50%+1 of the House (that of the house, not population at large) to get elected. The only other requirement is that they qualify to be president, because they are third in line. That is a surprising amount of power for someone that only needs 218 people. While, so far, every single time they’ve been a member of the house (something that needs more votes, but a pathetically small percentage of the population to get elected), that is not required.

@gib

@Eric_The_Pipe

We, the US, use democracy for parts of our system, but what we are is a Constitutional Representative Republic.

Ok, so can we say this? America is a Constitutional Representative Republic with democracy as one of its political tools? ← Not sure if that’s any less wordy but I think it’s a hell of a lot more elegant.

Sure. Or I can work on only correcting the statement when its relevant and you can call it whatever you want…

@gib

@Eric_The_Pipe

We also use English words but we are not the English language.

Is this where you call me arrogant?

Uh, yes! (Is this that time?)

@gib

@Eric_The_Pipe

If you are referring the the whole US, and trying to “reform” us, I suggest you start from a different place than if you are attempting to “reform” democracy. Just as if you were to attempt to reform us, I would suggest starting with a different place than if you are attempting to reform English… If you want a name that includes all the screwed up aspects that are the US, I suggest The United States of America, (USA or just US for short).

Well, no, I don’t think I’m referring to the whole US, I think I’m referring to, I guess, Western politics in general. I started this thread noticing some of the alarming conspiracies taking place in American politics today. I have James to thank for this. But my focus has consistently been, more or less, on American politics in particular. Why? Because you guys rule the world.

I just got back from a two week vacation in the Bahamas. My parents own a condo by the beach. All day–when we weren’t lounging at the beach, or shopping in town, or hitting the night clubs–we were in the condo with the TV channeled to CNN. I guess this is my dad’s pass time: watching CNN. He’s retired, so he has nothing better to do. All that I remembered being aired (and I’m sure we changed the channel now and then but…) was about Trump’s rise and downfall (even Mexico is making fun of him as I understand it now). So you see that the rest of the world–non-Americans–are being fed a huge dose of American media and current events. In Canada, that’s certainly true, and apparently it’s true in the Bahamas as well.

What you have to realize is that this is true of many other Western countries as well–not just Canadians and Bahamians (not to be confused with Bohemians).

The consequence is this: there is a public–I might even say global–perception that America rules the world and dictate the mode of conduct for people to follow–essential, you’ve gone global! Congrats! :

So, no, I’m not talking about America in particular–but it just so happens to be a fact that America runs the show today, and so the main focus of the task of studying Western politics (democracies, republics, the Renaissance, the Enlightenment) should definitely start with American politics today.

That sounds just awful. Not the watching CNN on vacation, I do things like that, relying on an other country for anything. Hell, I like you Canadians (even if its not a real country), and I’ll shoot people if I have to start relying on them…

If it helps, only half the country agrees with this idea, the conservative half would tell you all your effing crazy. Take care of your own shit, trade with us, but leave us alone otherwise. The heart of Conservatism is the desire to be left alone. Its just unfortunate that so many don’t understand that’s all we want, hell, even the stupid, racist parts of the party, ultimately come from this very place.

@gib

@Eric_The_Pipe

Wow, my reply was rather cheeky… I’ll have to think about that…

What does cheeky mean?

Cheeky

[Mictlantecuhtli]

So, according to Eric The Pipe unless you’re a soldier and looking like Wesley Snipes you’re not going to survive very well in anarchy. Well, with experts like these…

[Mictlantecuhtli]

@Mimisbrunnr

@HaHaHa

sighs People and their stereotypes.

I am white and skinny but I’m also a guy that knows how to use a knife severing through skin, flesh, muscle, and bone.

I’m the type of guy I could tell you which place is the fastest through the cerebral cord to cut through in order to get instant paralysis on the thing in question being dissected.

I’m the type of guy that likes rifles and shooting from long distances where there are certain nightscopes that shoot just as good at night as they would during the day.

I’m the type of guy I like reading and studying on poisons. You want to know what an interesting subject is? Neurotoxins.

Still think the skinny white guy doesn’t amount to much?

I’ll get to your other points at a later time.

Qualifying you are white and skinny with “but I’m also a guy that knows how to use a knife severing through skin, flesh, muscle, and bone” and the rest in this context, in my mind serves to actually reinforce the stereotype Eric_The_Pipe was referring to. I find that usually this type of person is very easily prompted to respond with the same type of awkwardly grandiose language and incorrect nomenclature as the above quote.

Skin, flesh, muscle and bone? Why stop there, why not include tendons and ligaments? Cerebral cord? Instant paralysis? It doesn’t really sound like you are a physiology buff, though I suppose you don’t have to be to sever a spinal cord, though the ‘best’ location all depends on what you are trying to paralyze exactly. Shooting from long distances where there are certain nightscopes that shoot just as good at night as they would during the day? Wha?? I can show you my shooting medals and awards, can you show me yours? I suppose you don’t have to be an avid shooter or competitive shooter, but it certainly helps.

It sounds like you want to sound like you know what you are talking about, but I’m really not seeing it in your language.

Oh look, another self described expert. It’s amazing how they pop out of the woodwork on the internet.

[Eric_The_Pipe]

@HaHaHa

So, according to Eric The Pipe unless you’re a soldier and looking like Wesley Snipes you’re not going to survive very well in anarchy. Well, with experts like these…

I was wondering what angle you would respond with. I do agree that my authority on anarchy is pretty limited, AS SUCH A THING HAS NEVER FUCKING OCCURRED!!

Humans invariably form coalitions, as that is quite often the best way to get things done, and the moment they do, they will attack those they can. Human history is full of murder, most of the skulls we find in caves have been bashed in, in one way or another. Humans have never lived in anarchy, so yes, my authority is pretty limited.

To point out the flaw with your specific comments, I said the first person I had come across that actually seemed like he could survive was big, black, smart and well trained. The black part is optional, as is the big, though you need a hell of a lot of smarts and training to make up for big. What I was asking was, if you had any of these. I have yet to see that you do, but, I’m no authority.

[gib]

@Eric_The_Pipe

Nope, just guy. Probably horribly atheist (the kind that isn’t just atheist, but needs to tell non-atheists why they are wrong…) But, it’s fun and marginally informative. The one on getting paid had a great idea that needs to be put into practice…

Oh, so it is a reference to the Biblical Adam, but from an angry atheist.

@Eric_The_Pipe

@gib

Hmmm… so this mistaken idea is being used as a political ploy?

Jah, which is probably why it gets so much precision from me.

How would such a ploy unfold? Would they say “You want democracy? We’ll give you democracy. Oh, and by the way, democracy is just mob rule, so that’s what you’re getting.”

@Eric_The_Pipe

I think he believes in democracy, honestly believes, its all the rage in the school system… Actually overheard someone saying what we need is more democracy in the middle east. I just about started throwing things…

Well, for what its worth, unless a person is educated in these matter, I think that most people, when they use the word “democracy”, have in mind something like your presidential electoral system–a system in which the people periodically vote for their leaders.

Do you think there’s many people who actually want mob rule?

@Eric_The_Pipe

So, we vote in small precincts, think a 6 block radius, and we vote for a delegate to go to larger sections and vote for other delegates, who then go and vote for the final delegates… Who are actually the people that vote for president…

Holy shit, that’s like 3 layers of delegates!

That’s what I love about you guys. The states are like a miniature of the world. It’s like a laboratory in which you can experiment with different political systems. Observe what happens in Colorado with their 3 layered voting process. Observe what happens in Wyoming with their political system (Whatever the hell it is). See what works, what doesn’t. And with 51 states, you get several orders of magnitude faster rate of learning experiences, as opposed to how long is needed for a single nation to go through the same trials and errors, the same mistakes and achievements, all on its own. The US system could be used to draw lessons about politics in general, which might be applicable globally, but I don’t think anyone’s doing that.

What do you find the results are like living in a 3 layered system?

@Eric_The_Pipe

It depends. I did a report recently, did the work to figure out that the Speaker for the House, easily the second most powerful person in the country, only needs 50%+1 of the House (that of the house, not population at large) to get elected. Elected for what? To be the House Speaker? The only other requirement is that they qualify to be president, because they are third in line. That is a surprising amount of power for someone that only needs 218 people. While, so far, every single time they’ve been a member of the house (something that needs more votes, but a pathetically small percentage of the population to get elected), that is not required.

Interesting, but how does that answer my question:

“Yes, but what else can a government aim for than pleasing the largest group of people?”

@Eric_The_Pipe

Sure. Or I can work on only correcting the statement when its relevant and you can call it whatever you want…

Well, then I think I’ll stick with democracy.

@Eric_The_Pipe

That sounds just awful. Not the watching CNN on vacation, I do things like that, relying on an other country for anything.

Yeah, well, that’s where the world’s at right now.

I don’t know if we’re relying on American media for anything, just pointing out the fact that we get American media. The consequence is most people in the industrialized modern world end up knowing a hell of a lot more about what’s going on in American politics than any other arbitrary country. I just think it’s worth keeping in mind.

@Eric_The_Pipe

If it helps, only half the country agrees with this idea, the conservative half would tell you all your effing crazy. Take care of your own shit, trade with us, but leave us alone otherwise. The heart of Conservatism is the desire to be left alone. Its just unfortunate that so many don’t understand that’s all we want, hell, even the stupid, racist parts of the party, ultimately come from this very place.

Don’t worry, I’m not pointing fingers. I’m just trying to justify why we’re focusing on American politics in this thread even though the general goal is a bit more broad than that.

To tell you the truth, there’s another reason I’m focusing on America. Part way through this thread, I became convinced that the American Constitution was a good model to follow if one’s goal was to contrive a kind of “improved” system compared to the ones we have today. So the model is specifically American, but the question was how generalized could we make it.

[Eric_The_Pipe]

@gib

@Eric_The_Pipe

Jah, which is probably why it gets so much precision from me.

How would such a ploy unfold? Would they say “You want democracy? We’ll give you democracy. Oh, and by the way, democracy is just mob rule, so that’s what you’re getting.”

Yes, except we say, see at the end of each sentience. As in:

You want democracy, see? We’ll give you democracy, see. Oh, and by the way, democracy is just mob rule, see, so that’s what you’re getting! See.

ha.

Usually its more along the lines of, well (such and such thing) is not what democracy is! We need more, not less. And (such and such) (person, thing or law) is the answer to our problems…

Then I say, “It’s not a democracy…”

@gib

@Eric_The_Pipe

I think he believes in democracy, honestly believes, its all the rage in the school system… Actually overheard someone saying what we need is more democracy in the middle east. I just about started throwing things…

Well, for what its worth, unless a person is educated in these matter, I think that most people, when they use the word “democracy”, have in mind something like your presidential electoral system–a system in which the people periodically vote for their leaders.

Except the parts that make America great are often the undemocratic parts. Protection of free speech is not democratic, neither is the judicial system. Democracy doesn’t provide freedom, most places don’t need democracy, they need restrictions on the government… I.E. a constitution.

@gib

Do you think there’s many people who actually want mob rule?

If you ever want to see people that do want Mob rule, got to a college. I had a lovely incident just a couple weeks ago… Or, look up and read some of the pieces by Kat Timpf, she writes for National Review (and other things). She writes almost exclusively on shitty things going on at colleges all over the U.S. I stopped reading because I found it too depressing. To many stupid kids that want exactly that, mob rule, largely because they think they are right, mostly because they are surrounded by people that agree with them… Mob rule is depressing… Its the crowd screaming “KILL HIM” as he expresses a different point of view. (Or was the case a couple weeks ago, “Hit him!” to the driver of a truck.

When President Obama said, “we are the ones we have been waiting for,” what exactly did you think he meant? It’s the same with the line, “get on the right side of history.” As if history had sides, even if far too often, historians do. The “right side” is the mob side, whatever the general public thinks at that time in history…

@gib

@Eric_The_Pipe

So, we vote in small precincts, think a 6 block radius, and we vote for a delegate to go to larger sections and vote for other delegates, who then go and vote for the final delegates… Who are actually the people that vote for president…

Holy shit, that’s like 3 layers of delegates!

That’s what I love about you guys. The states are like a miniature of the world. It’s like a laboratory in which you can experiment with different political systems. Observe what happens in Colorado with their 3 layered voting process. Observe what happens in Wyoming with their political system (Whatever the hell it is). See what works, what doesn’t. And with 51 states, you get several orders of magnitude faster rate of learning experiences, as opposed to how long is needed for a single nation to go through the same trials and errors, the same mistakes and achievements, all on its own. The US system could be used to draw lessons about politics in general, which might be applicable globally, but I don’t think anyone’s doing that.

The problem, all to often, comes in the form of believing that because it works on the smaller scale, it’ll work on the larger scale…

@gib

What do you find the results are like living in a 3 layered system?

This is the first time I’ve really explored it. It’s complicated, and, odd… Before that, I had no idea… So, I’m not sure how to answer that.

@gib

@Eric_The_Pipe

It depends. I did a report recently, did the work to figure out that the Speaker for the House, easily the second most powerful person in the country, only needs 50%+1 of the House (that of the house, not population at large) to get elected. Elected for what? To be the House Speaker? The only other requirement is that they qualify to be president, because they are third in line. That is a surprising amount of power for someone that only needs 218 people. While, so far, every single time they’ve been a member of the house (something that needs more votes, but a pathetically small percentage of the population to get elected), that is not required.

Interesting, but how does that answer my question:

“Yes, but what else can a government aim for than pleasing the largest group of people?”

It was an example of government not needing to please the largest group of people. It is actually one of the smallest groups of people… Though I suppose that depends on the numbers you are counting.

@gib

@Eric_The_Pipe

Sure. Or I can work on only correcting the statement when its relevant and you can call it whatever you want…

Well, then I think I’ll stick with democracy.

Huzzah!

@gib

@Eric_The_Pipe

That sounds just awful. Not the watching CNN on vacation, I do things like that, relying on an other country for anything.

Yeah, well, that’s where the world’s at right now.

It is very strange to hear about it that way. The U.S. just sees our declining power.

@gib

I don’t know if we’re relying on American media for anything, just pointing out the fact that we get American media. The consequence is most people in the industrialized modern world end up knowing a hell of a lot more about what’s going on in American politics than any other arbitrary country. I just think it’s worth keeping in mind.

One of my favorite writers suggests this is why we get so many comedians from Canada, that standing outside, looking in, does wonders for perspective. Also, I’ve heard some of the foreign media, its not very good at reporting on the U.S… Just keep that in mind…

@gib

@Eric_The_Pipe

If it helps, only half the country agrees with this idea, the conservative half would tell you all your effing crazy. Take care of your own shit, trade with us, but leave us alone otherwise. The heart of Conservatism is the desire to be left alone. Its just unfortunate that so many don’t understand that’s all we want, hell, even the stupid, racist parts of the party, ultimately come from this very place.

Don’t worry, I’m not pointing fingers. I’m just trying to justify why we’re focusing on American politics in this thread even though the general goal is a bit more broad than that.

Just trying to inform.

@gib

To tell you the truth, there’s another reason I’m focusing on America. Part way through this thread, I became convinced that the American Constitution was a good model to follow if one’s goal was to contrive a kind of “improved” system compared to the ones we have today. So the model is specifically American, but the question was how generalized could we make it.

It depends. If you go to the roots of the U.S. Government, it could be great spread quite far. Though, obviously, there is some silly shit 3/5ths and all that, but all “rights” being negative, limits on government, instead of on people. That’s the good stuff, and why the U.N. is a Easter Bunny Rabbit. Sweet Chocolate by appearances, but ultimately hollow on the inside. The closer the “rule” is to the people it is ruling the better off everyone is, because after you vote that one man can’t marry another man, you have to go outside and look him in the eye…

If however, government is a far away entity, that rules from on high, deciding what is good and what is bad, you only get disaster.

(Today I think my responses were more dramatic, or romantic, one of those ick words anyway.)