Satanists are Fools

all i know uc is that free will is a thing that hasn’t existed for the last several billion years, we have billions of years of history on our side, what have you got? god, theories of randominity, dreams, blatent ignorance of events around you and an insistence that because it has been one way for billions of years now that you have free will you suddenly have the power to change the nature of the universe.
See it from our side.
You do not have free will because every single thought is a particular series of chemicals and impulses. you said it yourself, if you really think about it there are reasons why you choose something. The REASONS govern your decision, NOT YOU.

NO it cannot be answered with proof. We don’t have proof that quantum fluctuations are not a random phenomena. however we can use logic and extrapolation projection to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that things in this universe are determined.

Random phenomena do not give rise to predictable phenomena because their nature is random. like they say quantum fluctuations are.

However the behaviour of large objects, of which billions of quantum fluctuations are a part, is entirely predictable. Large object = billions of quantum fluctuations = random phenomena. That’s the equation of free will.
However large object = laws of motion = predictable behaviour.
large object = predictable behaviour = determined elements and their determined interactions

have you heard of einstein or newton. Both mathematicians who worked out equations that correctly predicts the behaviour of the larger objects.

Ucc.,

If I take you correctly, this is an appeal to general skepticism. Is there any special reason a person could not say the above about Determinism?

I don’t take this to be skepticism at all, but rather an attempt to understand the person as an expression of larger things. I have no interest in undermining “knowledge” of any kind, but only of placing knowledge with the context of its power to do.

My belief in Free Will, then, is surely not the only example of this, this is better applied as a reason why we can’t know anything at all.

The question isn’t if we ultimately know something, its what does our “knowing” do? The “knowing” of freewill includes the unknowing of some of our determining factors, and therefore it has a built-in occlusion. The “knowing” of freewill does allow you to operate as a determined factor of a cultural ideation, expressing that historical – and one may even say, spiritual – vector, but there are other kinds of “knowing”, in other words, other kinds of “doing”, perhaps even more conducive to happiness.

such that the essence of ‘choosing’ is always there, even if in ways that are hard to recognize.

Not only is hard to recognize in “lower” life forms, it is hard to definitionally delineate in our own. The reason for this is, in my opinion, that it is a fiction, an artful and many times useful fiction, but a fiction nonetheless. Understood as a fiction, it then can be put along side other fictions, and compared, beyond its structuring of experience.

Well, the determinist requires one answer, and the free will believer requires the other, so it seems we’re both over the same barrel if this question is truly unanswerable.

But the determinist refers to the facts of the matter. What has happened, did happen. Freewill requires the hypothesis that if you had a desire to do something opposite of what you did do, you had the power to act on that desire, a fiction based on nothing whatsoever, other than the desire to feel free, even if you aren’t.

I may ask ‘What causes an apple’, then we could go into the birds and the bees, I suppose.

Open up a biology book, study evolutionary theory and you’ll have a nice set of causes and effects.

To say that factors A-X led to the existence of my mind (factors that include free choices of other minds), is not to say that factors A-X led to the decisions the mind would make.

That is because the “mind”, as you refer to it, is a mythological invention used to identify certain behavior patterns. It does not exist. It will never be found. Not because it is a spiritual otherness but because it is pure projection. One can do this with anything. I can say that there is a fairy nymph called a “shelma” that comes with her little wand and touches an apple just at the moment before it can be called an apple. All the physical processes that lead to that point are not enough to make an apple an apple. It takes the invisible little shelma to make the transformation. The same is the case with the “freewill”. There is no moment of decision. There is “I should/am going to/am about to, decide” and “I have decided”. There is pure continuity. There actually is no decision, there is no shelma. It just happens, it expresses its conditions.

And what if I point out the obvious- that humans clearly don’t always act on what they desire most? That we sometimes may make judgements against our desires, or act on desires in defiance of judgement? How are you defining ‘the strongest desire’?

Impossible. If you acted as such, your desire to do so was stronger to do otherwise. Only a stronger desire can overrule another desire.

What could possibly lead to that conclusion, other than a prior allegiance to determinism?

Just examine your life. Anytime you suppressed or overruled a desire, it was the desire you had to do so. In this way life is understood as a continuous vitality. This is not a determinism of molecules and billiard balls, but a determinism of the unfolding of Spirit

Which desire is the strongest?

The one acted on. The one that wins.

Dunamis

the answer to the equation of that thought process

Well, I'm not talking about your intentions so much as the natural result of what you propose. If it's true that beliefs seem reasonable to us because they help us in subjective, cultural ways, then how is free will hurt any more than determinism or anything else?
 Again, one could say this about determinism- the reason it's so hard to find determinant causes in some human behavior is because there [i]aren't[/i] any. I grant, though, that determinism has an edge in this respect- someone who believes in free will must admit that causality applies to a great many things as well, the opposite is not true. 

This helps the determinist no more than the free will-ist. The fact of the matter is that people take themselves to be doing things of their own volition, and not forced to do them by factors beyond their control. That is a fact, and free will uses it.

Balderdash. Free will was not invented by people because they had a need to feel liberated from causation. Belief in ourselves as agents with volition is a ‘part of our constitution’, the belief comes to us immediately and without reflection, and certainly without some agenda.

 Whether or not the mind exists is perhaps a bigger disagreement between us than free will- I can't imagine resolving the latter while in dispute about the further. I find the assertion that minds don't exist (especially that MY mind doesn't exist) to be absurd- if it was someone else saying it, I'd say it's a symptom of thinking to much and living too little. 
To demonstrate the degree to which this seems nuts to me, let me ask a rhetorical question. If the mind is an invention, who invented it?
 It may be so- anytime I have supressed a desire and not acted on it, it may be because there was some other desire that I acted on instead. This is not enough, though.  I can grant that I [i]choose[/i] one desire over another without shaking my foundations at all.

A classic error needs a classic response: It is no doubt true, as you have claimed, that we always act on our strongest desire, where our ‘strongest desire’ is defined as the one we end up acting on! I’m sure you see now that this isn’t enough. As I see it, you have two choices:
1.) Leave the definition of ‘strongest desire’ as ‘the one acted on’, in which case you have admit that pointing out we always act on our strongest desire is meaningless.
2.) Define ‘strongest desire’ in some other way, independant on whether or not we act on it, and then set about proving that we do, in fact, always act on the desire that has those characteristics.

Ucc.,

Well, I’m not talking about your intentions so much as the natural result of what you propose.

Because you assume the natural result of what I propose is skepticism, you seem not to have grasp of what I propose. The result is Pragmatism.

If it’s true that beliefs seem reasonable to us because they help us in subjective, cultural ways, then how is free will hurt any more than determinism or anything else?

The way it “hurts” is that it occludes one path to relative freedom. Because a decision is understood as a self-authorized event, it cannot take into account the aspects that determine it, and therefore will remain passive to those causes. No matter, one can move through life with one’s head in the sand. We all do it to a degree.

the reason it’s so hard to find determinant causes in some human behavior is because there aren’t any.

I know of no human behavior for which determinist causes cannot be proposed.

The fact of the matter is that people take themselves to be doing things of their own volition, and not forced to do them by factors beyond their control.

The “fact” is that people “take themselves” in a particular way. Operating out of ignorance does not establish a fact. If you imagine that because people might be ignorant of what causes them to do act in a certain way is a proof of freewill, that would be a mistake. One throughout life discovers again and again the reasons you behaved in a certain way in the past that at the time you were unaware of. The ignorance of the present moment is shown by personal growth all the time. Ten years from now you will look back at this time in your life with a different understanding of the motivations of your actions than you presently have. These motivations are things you have not “taken into account” sufficiently in your present decisions.

Free will was not invented by people because they had a need to feel liberated from causation. Belief in ourselves as agents with volition is a ‘part of our constitution’, the belief comes to us immediately and without reflection, and certainly without some agenda.

You have little understanding of the history of freewill. As little as 4,000 years ago people did not principally see themselves as free agents – at least as it is expressed in literature – but as operants of powers much greater than themselves. Gods. The incremental increase in freewill, conceptions of the individual soul, are sociological inventions which can be pretty well traced in ancient texts. What you consider “part of our constitution” is actually a historically determined condition.

To demonstrate the degree to which this seems nuts to me, let me ask a rhetorical question. If the mind is an invention, who invented it?

It is an expression of historically contingent language and its culture in the development of the human being as a social animal, a necessary identification of certain behaviors for the means of social cohesion and control.

It may be so- anytime I have supressed a desire and not acted on it, it may be because there was some other desire that I acted on instead.

You did not act on the stronger desire. It acted on you. Only your desire to remain king of your kingdom makes you say otherwise.

1.) Leave the definition of ‘strongest desire’ as ‘the one acted on’, in which case you have admit that pointing out we always act on our strongest desire is meaningless.

As I said above, you misunderstand the process. The desire acts on you, not you on it.

Dunamis

Pinnacle of Reason said

[quote]
Satan has only a few apperances in the bible and was defeated in the book of revelations. Followers of satan are followers of the vanquished and therefore fools.

[quote]

Then why do we comit sin?

I see satan as an obtacle, we may trip a few times (maybe more), and the very few people who pass it without flaw are infallible.

Dunamis

 Which is a small difference indeed- Pragmatism is usually the result of conceeding to the skeptic that we can't have truth in the generally understood sense, and we may as well believe 'what works'. If really all you want to say is that believe in determinism is more [i]useful[/i] than believe in free will, then that's a discussion I'm a lot less interested in.

Dunamis

‘Proposed’ is not ‘found’. Humans are great rationalizers.

Yes.

There are belief systems which we develop, and then there are beliefs that spring from the constitution unbidden. If the fatalists of 4,000 years ago engaged in [i]deliberation[/i], if they wasted time pondering the correct course of action, then they had the same root belief in free will that men of these days do, and if their belief systems conflicted with that, it's just an example of them making the same mistakes as the modern determinist. 

So all of this happened amongst creatures without minds? Will trees be doing it next?

There is no argument here, only proposed telepathy.

 Then your error is even more glaring. By your own definition, a desire is not the 'stronger' until we have acted on it. So the best you can say is "a desire acts on us, and once we behave according to it, we refer to it as 'the stronger'. "  This is a wild departure from the usual behaviorist approach, that humans have conflicting desires, and the stronger one prevails and makes us act.  As far as your model can predict, the desire that makes us act is completely random. [i]Or[/i] we simply select which desire to act on, as is apparent.

Ucc.,

Which is a small difference indeed

A difference that I mark.

‘Proposed’ is not ‘found’.

Just as freewill is proposed.

There are belief systems which we develop, and then there are beliefs that spring from the constitution unbidden.

How do you determine the difference? You, if the product of the former, would never be able to tell them apart.

Will trees be doing it next?

Don’t look now but trees might be operating in extremely complex ecosystems, a vast network of life more complex than any human brain…if humans have mind, so must many other things, I am not adverse to that. I am a pantheist and thus a panpsychist.

As far as your model can predict, the desire that makes us act is completely random.

This is very close to my suspicion. I actually do believe in freewill in the radical sense that it appears that the body-as-mind in ideational and causal fashion balances out possibilities which then reach a threshold and are randomly then found to be willed. Ostensibly it is a coin flip that happens behind the veiled moment when we “decide”, the moment even freewillers cannot experience or see. But a strictly determinist model works as well here, if that is more comforting to others. What seems the least probable is that the “I” operates in Lord of the Manor fashion, weighing reasons in his right an left hand, and then completely free from cause, self-determines a decision. Decisions that are experienced as such very often are proved to be caused by any number of explanations that go far beyond the knowledge of “decider”. Further, mitigating factors always intrude on the freewill description, factors that strike me as completely arbitrary in application: operating under mental illness, addiction, retardation, autism, emotional intensity, intoxication, not to mention unconscious motivation, all to some degree suspend the status of freewill. I suspect that just as these cases suspend freewill due to cultural attempts to explain and assess behavior, so too freewill is also an attempt to explain behavior, and as such, influences our personal experience of our very own actions. There is no freewill will experience that cannot later be susceptible to suspended explanation by way of other causes.

But as it seems you will not let go of your freewill view, I propose a compromise. Hold on to freewill, but accept that all that one can do is decide to place oneself in the hands of much larger forces than you. And in so doing, one becomes an expression of those forces.

Dunamis

Do we know this to be true? And if so, how? I ask because there are many models of the human mind, both scientific and philosophic but all are merely theoretical, so far as I know. And if I perceive this particular explanation to be accurate, what precisely is the “I” that is doing the perceiving?

I can see how denying the mind as I (and I would presume Ucc) think about it would be convenient for a determinist. Allowing for any model of the mind that might include randomness could open the door to the possibility of free will. But is there a known model that adequately explains cognition that could rightly be said to be more than theoretical?

Jerry,

But is there a known model that adequately explains cognition that could rightly be said to be more than theoretical?

One must ask what the theoretical is then. For me all is ‘the theoretical’, and the truth of the theoretical is determined by the real world effects that belief in the theoretical brings, under the interpretation that produced them. It seems to me to be more meaningful to see the world as a progression of versions of reality, each of which bring about their own consequences. Each age imagines that it sees the world clearly and I see no reason to imagine that ours is any different than any other, to be proven ‘wrong’ when a more powerful way of seeing the world comes along. At this point in philosophy and history it makes good sense to attribute to language and culture many of the distinguishing characteristics that for instance mark out the mind as the mind. Dennett’s study of consciousness tends in this direction. These are new metaphors for thinking, which in my book are more dynamic, less archaic than the metaphors of the past, metaphors which matched the social-political relationships that gave rise to them. I view history as the unfolding of spirit, in which the metaphor plays a central role, because of the importance of language to the human species. But in the end it is all theoretical. I only ask, what are the real consequences of believing model “x” and not “y”.

Dunamis

Fair enough. I have no problem with the theoretical as long as we understand the limitations. And truthfully my mind is not made up on the matter of determinism versus free will. This is slightly troubling to me, however:

But in a robotic, puppet-like way, yes? The thing that’s bothersome, in thinking determinism through, is the removal of the independent creative spirit that is thought of as being uniquely one’s own, where we cease to be partners in God’s creation (which is what I like to think) and instead become programmed instruments.

Not saying you’re wrong. Just saying I like my way more.

Jerry,

“The thing that’s bothersome, in thinking determinism through, is the removal of the independent creative spirit that is thought of as being uniquely one’s own”

What determinism does is it makes one the unique and creative expression of spirit, only the creativity is not of one’s own - you do not own it - but of the larger process in which one participates. I have no doubt that we experience the will as free, but we also experience the sun to rise.

Dunamis

Does the “process in which one participates” imply a teleological universe? And would you say that somebody’s (ostensible) decision to, I don’t know, say, fly an airplane into a skyscraper, is really a “unique and creative expression of spirit”? A determinist who is an atheist (and aren’t most of them?) has no such problem. Your position seems unique to me. How does a Spinozan (how does any deterministic pantheist) deal with the problem of evil?

Jerry,

“Does the “process in which one participates” imply a teleological universe?”

It is not teleological in that it does not operate with a specific end in mind, but it is utterly connected and in relation to itself.

How does a Spinozan (how does any deterministic pantheist) deal with the problem of evil?

Evil is a matter of perspective. That which diminishes the power of “you” to persist is evil, when you realize that our knowledge both of that power, and the definition of what is “you” fluctuates, you realize that the definition of evil also fluctuates, but fluctuates within the order of the world. Keep in mind, the flying of airplanes into skyscrapers was celebrated around the world as a great, and in fact by some, a religious act, despite the perspective of the West.

Dunamis

Hence, Satanists are not necessarily fools. We experience them as fools, but we experience the sun to rise.

isn’t it interesting how every idea on philosophy turns out to an argument between free will and determinism.

My mind was made up when i thought about consequences.
If you drop a hammer and hit someone’s foot are you responsible for the damage?
Answer: no

If you really think about it, you can list many forces acting on the hammer, both when it is in your hand and in the air. you won’t be in control of any of them so you aren’t responsible for anything you do.

I think it’s the ebb and flow of ILP. A few weeks back the ebb was politics, now it’s determinist logic (or lack there-of.) next it will be back to “peace, an option?” I’ve also noticed an ebb of drugs coming back in.

You can’t be serious. If you throw your fist and someone happens to be in the way it’s their fault they were in the way?

nice 12 year old mentality there.

Define free will gobbo and syc

Mat.,

Define free will…

Solipsistic convergence upon vectors of Ignorance.

Dunamis

DIE YOU SON OF A BITCH THREAD! DIE DIE DIE!! Seriously… this thread is old. PoR is gone (or he hasn’t said anything I read in a while). Please!