JT
Nah, not that devestating if one has the courage to hit bottom.
What I really wanted to say was that you make her sound like a bore.
My transvestite comment is most pertinent, but you do not understand it. There are few here that do. In fact instead of explain it to you I’m going to walk away ok. I gave up trying to explain anything to you a couple of posts back. Didn’t you get it? Na didn’t think so, you don’t have ears to hear.
A
Now, come on girls, stop bickering.
We all have our views, and to a lot of people who don’t share them they are a lot of nonsense. I have mine and I am quite comfortable with them and find them entirely logical. I like many here believe that part of me, sections or all of the mind, will survive the death of the body. I, like everyone else will then find out the truth, or at least part of it.
This gives rise to two points. Firstly; I am, and all the rest of you are , at least, partly wrong. If it was that easy somebody would have worked it out already and we would all be able to agree, which patently is not the case. Secondly, since we will find out the truth, or at least part thereof, it doesn’t matter what we believe. I think we may agree, however, that what we do may well have some bearing on our future course of existence. So I suggest we all look at what we have done, and what we intend to do, in absolute terms, and completely ignore our reasons for doing it. If we are still found to be of meritous standing, SPLENDID.
Bravo Avocet, you’ve walked into a history of a thousand posts with all the answers to life’s little problems. Good for you.
This moment’s thought sees through eternal time;
Eternal time is just this moment.
If you see through this moment’s thought,
You see through the person
Who sees through this moment.
- Mumon
A
Avocet,
You aren’t seriously suggesting that there may be more than one point of perspective are you? But, but… what about all my quotes of famous people? I mean, they knew or they wouldn’t have written it all down, and because I can read, I know too. And that means I can tell everyone exactly how it is. There is only one truth and I have it.
That is really dangerous stuff you’re talking. Someone has to be the authority or this whole thread goes…[size=75]poof.[/size]
JT
Hi Angel,
Yes, I believe that the message that was being transported through Jesus and his followers, sometimes in terms of self-irony and satire, was that we need to pull ourselves away from the dependency that Mammon requires. We need to obey God before we obey men. We need to become the beings we have been created to be with all of the potential that has been invested in us, and the first step is to understand that God is merciful. The cross of Christ is designed as a sign of that mercy, as horrendous as it is, incarnate in a man who was the best of us and took upon himself the sins of us all, once and for all.
He became the incarnate Word of God – the Torah that people had experienced, rather than studied. The Gospels carry masterly the clumsy experiences of the disciples and other followers, their stumbling discovery of the Mystery, and gradual understanding. The Epistels carry the later developed theological hypothesis of what had happened, and to some degree the indication that the movement was one of diversity. That is one reason why the gifts too are manifold.
We have to overcome the tendency to fall back into chaos and, as you say, learn to give in a whole myriad of ways. It is important for us to learn that we are independent of Mammon, but dependent upon community. We need each other, whether in humble or pompous surroundings. But, as Christ said, it is difficult for the rich man to enter the Realm of God, there are too many things that he has to let go of - things which are now symbiotically holding on to him.
It is a spiritual path that man has to go down, which can only be judged spiritually, since the measure of the secular world doesn’t fit. But it is a path right through the middle of the secular world, the valley of death and sorrows, which help us contemplate the reality of existence. It is a path of compassion, although it requires a certain amount of detachment to survive. It is a path of commitment, but requires sound judgement. It is a path of “all-the-sameâ€, disregarding the apparent contradictions and imperfection, moving on in the interests of the community.
Shalom
Hey Bob,
A very difficult task indeed, the one of letting go of all our ‘riches’.
From my perspective this makes a lot of sense. I’m unsure that He died on behalf of our sins though. I’m more inclined to percieve that Jesus died as an example of Heaven’s great love and of this letting go of our ‘riches’. Jesus taught us about repentance but we’ve become misguided. Opinionated. Inclined to attach to our bodies as life. A great gift for us to self reflect and introspect on. Jesus did say; “I am the way, the truth and the life.” Certainly that is the greatest direction in terms of our true natures we can have received. Jesus, the best of humanity was still a man and still bound by the laws of the universe. I have found whether I’m sincere to know or not, that people reflect unseen aspects of myself. I can see or not, up to me. Jesus reflects the greatest unseen aspect of myself, my Christ nature. The greatest gift to humanity. But what to do with this gift? Surely the spiritual path is a path of transformation?
Actually everthing that I have has been given to me. Everything be they material possessions or sprititual attributes. What am I going to do with all these gifts? There is ever the test.
The very best proof is the proof of Jesus’ life in our own lives. The gift of direction. It must be an inward journey.
Amen. There is much to do.
A
Bob and LA,
Wow, you guys just don’t seem to understand… 
JT
The glaring truth that the three of you may understand that I have apparently underestimated is the subtle transvestite influence. LA wrote:
I have begun a full scale investigation into the matter and I can assure you I will not be taken off guard again.
Ear of heart, falls most deaf,
Eye of mind, blindest yet,
Voice of man, hindered breath,
Shadowed knowledge, as without depth,
Brings forth certainly, mankinds death.
Perhaps now my kin will see what it was that I spoke of privately.
Bob, I don’t know you, and could spend an eternity disagreeing with you, and forever respecting the breadth of your heart and courage.
Well done. kin.
Hello Mastriani,
Welcome back! Although there may be more profitable threads…
JT
Hi Bob
I’m curious: What does it mean to “obey God” What do you mean by becoming what we have been created to be?
What has allowed you to remain out of chaos?
Does this community have a name?
It seems so simple. Why do you believe it isn’t in practice yet?
Hi Angel,
The “scapegoat effect†had a long tradition and Israel was always given a method to give up their best as an offering for their transgressions, until the Temple was finally destroyed. It isn’t surprising for Jewish followers of Jesus to see him in this light, whether or not his death coincided with Passah or not. The ultimate sacrifice is the best of us. There is also a human part of this too, portrayed in the struggle at Gethsemane, seeking the strength to surrender out of love towards those who might have shouted “crucify him!†Knowing that the greater goal is more important than the life of one. Jesus didn’t fall into this situation, but walked into it, aware of what it could mean.
I think that he reached times in his ministry, when he lacked physical strength and when he felt himself being drained of the spiritual inspiration that drove him on. It is at times like these that those who are concerned for the physical welfare may become a temptation for those called to go beyond the physical borders. Determination, even inspired determination, can fall on a slippery slope. That is why Jesus often stepped back to reflect and gain an introspective view – and we are advised to do so as well.
Yes, this potential of being a Christ, a redeemer for others, is something that awaits realisation. It is something that is given to us and waits for us to use it. Many of us are too bound by society to step out and be what we could be, but in a community of people conspiring to fly beneath the radar of accepted levels of charity, we might grow braver. This is where the gifts of the spirit are needed to build rather than destroy, to feed, to nurse, to heal, to encourage, to give directions and to lead. The opposition is greater than people think, which is why we must go to those who want to see us and leave others behind.
The Christ-figure however, is the target of extremism. That is why those who find themselves called must make a decision, and it can make us sweat blood and tears. This figure is in more than one way the “suffering servantâ€, because he takes the blows that were meant for all of us, not just the ones we have “deserved†- meaning having deserved more than the one who has finally suffered. The Christ-figure is the Martyr, the one who goes like a lamb to the slaughter.
Amen
Hi Mastriani,
Thanks for the encouragement, perhaps we wouldn’t disagree as much as you think…
Shalom
Hi Nick,
I’m confused, you know that I am quoting Acts 5:29 of course? Peter is cited as the mouthpiece and it is only Gamaliel who comes to the rescue - and saves them from being stoned like Stephen. Just as then those Apostles were not prepared to be silenced, so too should the church be bold enough to follow the example set in scripture and walk in the Spirit.
Genesis 1:27 “And God prepareth the man in His image; in the image of God He prepared him, a male and a female He prepared them.â€
Genesis 5:1 “In the day of God’s preparing man, in the likeness of God He hath made him…â€
John 10:34 “Jesus answered them, `Is it not having been written in your law: I said, ye are gods?â€
We may be “fallen gods†but our destiny is to be heirs. The “Sons of God†must go on a mystical return journey to receive that status back again, but the uniqueness of humankind is what fuels this hope. The intercourse of the Spirit with our spirit is still as ephemeral as a vision or a dream, like a bright star at night that fades with the daylight, leaving us waiting and yearning for the sight again. But such visions or insights waken our senses to the “everyday miracles†of life and help our empathy discern the needs of our fellow man. I believe that the gifts of the Spirit help us along that road towards our destiny.
Some uncanny force that has always pulled me back, or pushed me into a situation that turned out good. Looking back, I have been blessed amongst turmoil, even though I wasn’t always “out of†chaos, I was somehow not part of it and was fortunate to be able to gain some kind of orderly path. I have been through all kinds of chaos, you wouldn’t believe how much. I see that same kind of condition threatening us all, our society, our families and friends, our communities and I do my best to help avoid it.
My community is called “Evangelische Kirchengemeinde Dortmund-Schüren†- what is yours called?
It is the trappings of society in reasonably wealthy countries that makes people unable to concentrate on those things that are enduringly good for them.
Shalom
Hi Bob
Quite honestly I don’t believe we know what this means. I know I don’t. consider how Meister Eckhart describes it:
I can sense the truth in this but know it is beyond me so don’t pretend it and willing to admit my nothingness in front of it. I know this bugs the hell out of most as it used to bug the hell out of me but I do believe he is right and an essential message of Christianity. Of course a lot of good works can be very beneficial for many but Meister Eckhart is speaking of something very profound and beyond good works.
I’m even cautious about commenting on this. For me it is good just to realize how far I’m from this change of being to something from nothing.
True, but as fallen gods having devolved from inner unity into diversity or plurality, we are nothing. How to become “Sons of God”? I don’t believe it is from doing this or that but the inner change from plurality into unity. This is the idea of Christian re-birth for me which is reclaiming what was lost by the conscious inner change of psychological plurality into unity from the energy of the Holy Spirit.
I see it differently. I believe it is the collective level of man’s being that determines the nature and trappings of society and its effects on an individual.
I remember participating with others on an experiment regarding love. The idea was to take an insect or plant that is naturally repulsive to me and try to love it. It is one of God’s creatures. How can I suffer its presence, allow its being to touch mine without recoiling? I’ve always disliked those large house centipedes so I caught one and placed it in a bowl it couldn’t crawl out of. the idea was to see how close I could get to it and remain open to it. I experienced how difficult it was. If it was so hard to become open to a centipede, how much more difficult it is it to be open to another that is much more complex and threatening. It became easy for me to see from this how this idea of love is exaggerated. We speak of putting ourselves in the position of another but in reality we must consciously learn to do it. The quality of love the great teachings refer to is I believe much deeper than we normally believe.
This is what a real esoteric church does. It is one thing to speak of love but how do we learn to love. I’ve learned to see how far I am from all but conditioned selective love and the necessity of consciousness to broaden my ability leading to conscious love. But even just this is a step in the right direction since it is respected more and not used as cheaply as it normally is.
I’d prefer being wrong but I believe that since we are collectively what we are, life will continue as it is complete with its cycles of war and peace. The chances are for the individuals willing to make the conscious efforts to work on their being. Otherwise, since tomorrow is made of the same stuff of today, everything will be the same adapting in appearance to the influences from life’s cycles.
Hi Nick,
I’ll answer Meister Eckhart, seeing as you have used him to address me 
Couldn’t agree more. It is a matter of purity and simplicity, but how do we become pure and simple? I think that your inability to contemplate these words would not be in keeping with what the Meister intended. He wouldn’t have wanted you to be stricken with palsy, but sensitive to the dangers that your state of “fallenness†presents. The Meister was a spiritual counsellor, driven by love for the lost souls caught up in the evils of his age. He wanted people to become free, not bind them.
A balance must stand free to work effectively and that is what Meister Eckhart’s words attempt to achieve. The more surrounding garbage inhibits this, the less clarity we achieve. The balance of works and sins may not be a matter of salvation, but the metaphor of the balance helps us realise that there is more we could do to outweigh the sin within us, and to do that, we need purity and simplicity in our search for God.
This is very much the impression I get in my job. I followed the call to service and was content with that, not having had the trappings of financial security. It soon became apparent that people relied on me to show the way, sort the problems and organise things, so I rose in the hierarchy. Soon after that I was asked to stand in for my Care Manager, who became seriously ill. I seemed to manage that too and was pushed in the direction of managerial qualifications and finally I became a Care-Manager. Since then, however, it is becoming more and more difficult to free myself of the general cluttering and I feel myself under pressure or constraint – a sure sign that I am being worked.
That is one of the reasons why the Mystics have appealed to me, giving me answers when I have sought them, guiding me to that “inner chamber†where I can find peace and inspiration, balance and perspective. Sometimes it is in reading or prayer, sometimes it is through so-called “menial tasks†like sweeping a large floor, sorting paper or even in driving. Sometimes it is in finding a large open space, especially at weekends, where the wind and the sun can help the pressure subside and free me from the constraints that have had me bound. It is then that I find myself open to inspiration.
Wise words indeed. There have been times when the calling I had became something external, rather than internal. But I noticed it when my inner substance became fragile, when I lacked any inspiration for what I was doing. It was time to step back, find a distance or detachment from my tasks, and return to that “inner chamber†for sustenance.
This is something which the Meister explains masterly. I couldn’t find the words that he has. It is difficult in a world of Quality Management to do without “Why’sâ€. But that is where the vocational is separate from the job – and it is where we often have difficulty explaining ourselves. It is something that is expressed more in the way we do things than in what we do. In my situation, the spontaneous devotion to a person in need, without asking “Why?†is something that many people are even forbidden to do, as their time is being paid for by some employer. People in my position have more possibilities, but my employees have a designated time to do what they have to and anything else is their own time – even though we are a Care Home.
This is much the situation of all in our society, which is why, in my mind, the Christian community has to try and create the facility for a colony or fellowship within society. The standards of such a fellowship would provide opportunity to live without a why, the way the Meister describes. But to live “ohne Warumb†like the Rose of Angelus Selesius …
Die Rose ist ohne warumb
sie bluehet weil sie bluehet
Sie achtet nicht ihrer selbst
fragt nicht ob man sie siehet.
can only function for human beings within monastery walls, in total poverty – or in paradise. The latter being more a frame of mind than a place. But I believe that Meister Eckhart didn’t go as far as Selesius and was more concerned with understanding what it is to be “poor in spiritâ€.
As we can see here, it is the creative energy of God inside this timeless mystical communion of two spirits melted together, the lesser enveloped in the greater, that produces works from within. Within a fellowship, these works would be recognised for what they are, but outside of such a fellowship, they are prone to attack and swallowed up by consumerist attitudes – an example of which we see when Jesus suddenly goes missing at the house of Peter’s mother-in-law and Peter and the disciples “hunt†him down.
Jesus was the prime example of such “works†and we see that they could only take place in private, or in a protected place. “Tell no-one†was important for Jesus, but on numerous occasions we find him escaping to solitude, lest he be swallowed up by the hunger of the multitudes and fail his mission. This does teach us a lesson for community in the modern age.
Shalom
Hi Bob
Simplicity is a relative word. In chess for example the great Cuban champion Capablance responding to a question as to how far he thinks ahead replied: “one move, and it is always the best.” He saw the whole of the position as “One” so for him the move was simple. For me it is complex and intricate in its subtle revelations to the point of being artistic. This is why I believe that truly being simple as opposed to gullible requires a conscious apprehension of the wholeness and relativity of man’s position within the universe and his relation to the higher and lower within it…
As you know I continually refer to the state of “sleep” humanity is in and how the tendency is always there for self deception. You know how this infuriates everyone. But yet it is essential to respect IMO. Otherwise all sorts of fantastic notions appear out of the woodwork As Father Sylvan wrote:
Meister Eckhart describes the effort in regards man to make something from nothing. I see this as a process in stages as Father Sylvan describes. Who can begin at the level of a Meister Eckhart? It is impossible. Yet this is what is assumed as possible. This is why Jacob Needleman described this idea of intermediate Christianity always existing in the church but ignored public since who could teach it? We cannot begin as simple but must become simple through the expererience of the human condition in the context of wholeness rather than a mechanical reaction to fear which brings the simplicity of ignorance. The ability to teach from experience rather than imagination is part of a living church. That is why they are rare.
I think our differences stem from this idea of “nothingness” in relation to human spiritual/evolutionary potential and how this esoteric or inner understanding consciously develops without becoming its opposite over time in accordance with the laws of nature.
Nick,
I’m sorry, but you have once again shown that what you incessantly quote (although you say I haven’t heard the worst yet) has absolutely nothing to do with us mortals, since who can understand and who is able to explain?
Result: Lots of words, disagreement, rivalries, dissensions - but no direction. You have blocked this thread successfully which might have found some answers for someone. You feel misunderstood? Go to a counsellor who can advise you. I can’t, since you hide behind a veil of anonymity and we seldom get to see the “real you”.
But stop clogging up discussions between people wh really want to discuss and perhaps even find some answers.
Shalom
The good are getting better and the bad are getting worse.
Some have greater responsibility than others but it is just a role based on their affinity with Truth and their ability to realise this responsibility. If they do not, who will? We all have this potential.
Hi Angel,
It seems as though the contention that disturbs the spiritual development of people is like a sticky substance thrown over everyone so that we have difficulty recognising the good from the bad. The more chaos that can be created the better those who wish to be unseen can go about their “dastardly” deeds.
We need to understand that the superficial strife is not that which separates us, it isn’t necessary to all be one opinion, but it is necessary to learn that we all have a role to play and a gift to use in the interest of the whole. On the political side Globalisation could help the poorer rise to a moderate standard, but instead, it is spreading poverty and using every opportunity to unstabilise proven social structures. On the religious side, the extremists either protect investments or promote contention by playing on apocalyptical and fundamentalist fears.
The problem with Jesus, and the problem today, is that those who become Martyrs are always numbered among the extremists - even though they themselves are targetted by extremists. Only a few know the truth. No wonder then that Jesus doesn’t appear in the historical annals. The same is apparent when we are told about the first Churches and about the oppression they had to suffer. To overcome this, we need personalities who are integer in their intentions and do not hide behind a screen of intellectualism, but show devotion and love towards the people and their problems.
I might be able to write speeches, but can I lead people? I agree that there is this lying latently within us, but I believe the calling has to come from within, from the centre and heart of our being, from God.
Shalom