Many if not most were not nomadic? Some did shift between two places in summer to winter. But I can’t take people’s apartments if they winter in Florida. Many had permanent land occupation.
First, proofs are in math and symbolic logic. Second, I don’t think it can possibly be contested that Europeans took lands from people who had been there before. Relocated or killed or mixtures of both. Of course Europeans did this with each other and other groups ahve and do this with each other. It is part of human history. But it is hardly legal (or illegal) is was use of power, often with false claims to this or that King of Queen and the approval of the church. IOW a bunch of rationalisations and bs. The descendents of these people who use force justified by bs to take land not theirs and then theirs did not do it right. They just did it. And if some Mexican sneaks across the border using wile I can’t see how someone can claim that is less moral, than using force and royal rights/Christianity as justification. He can claim that Americans are underutilizing their portion of North America. And when americans hire him cause he’ll work cheaper, this will confirm it for him. People using smarts, wile, power,w hatever.
I have no problem with countries restricting immigration and enforcing this. I see very few people, for exmaple on the Left, actually willing to allow complete open borders or sharing their apartments with anyone who crashes the place.
But this moral bullshit is just that, bullshit.
I’m not for fully open borders, I’m more in favour of having some kind of simpler and easier recording of who comes and goes with the intent to stop things like human trafficking and the crossing of criminals etc., but not so much as to deter the vast majority of people who just want to come and go for work and opportunity as they did in the days that built modern America.
The fact that I’m calling Wendy on her hypocrisy doesn’t place me on one extreme instead of the other. Whilst there are plenty of ultra-liberals who are happy to live highly ascetic lifestyles in the company of all sorts of people, I am not social - I don’t even let family crash at my place… walls are for houses, not for border lines in the sand - there’s no hypocrisy in being in favour of freer travel and secure houses.
I wouldn’t call empathy “moral bullshit”, if that’s what you were referring to. It’s a fact that humans from anywhere are just as human as any others - yet tribalistic people too often forget this when fearing different people and the slightest degree of change.
You are for open borders and the NWO.
Also, I am no more of a hypocrite than you. You have no plans to relinquish what you gained from being who and where you are.
There are no lands in the US that are not owned legally by somebody, so in reality there are no claims to be made today. People can make all kinds of claims about owning this or that but if they can’t produce said ownership and actually protect what’s owned borders then they don’t own it, never owned, and never will own it as long as it is simply wishful thinking. The Indians wishfully owned the entire continent says some people like KT and Sil, but they could not defend their claims before times became more civilized. I know you and Sil want to mix analogies of bygone days into the mix as if what happened hundreds of years ago and all throughout time by every country and tribe somehow disqualifies or shames what was done by the US Europeans. There’s nothing wrong with expansion for land and resources, but today we have laws that halt such conquests in most cases, but it doesn’t stop super powers from re-annexing territories in their name like Russia taking Crimea. Russia said it had claims to owning Crimea and they were willing to fight it out and protect it once they reconquered it. That’s ownership not wishful thinking or emoting on behalf of wishful thinking.
I don’t understand your argument.
You seems to be saying that there is some sort of legal ownership which makes taking land wrong or immoral. Here:
“There are no lands in the US that are not owned legally by somebody, so in reality there are no claims to be made today. People can make all kinds of claims about owning this or that but if they can’t produce said ownership and actually protect what’s owned borders then they don’t own it, never owned, and never will own it as long as it is simply wishful thinking. The Indians wishfully owned the entire continent says some people like KT and Sil, but they could not defend their claims before times became more civilized.”
But then you seem to be saying that the only thing that’s important is the power to take and hold land. Here:
“There’s nothing wrong with expansion for land and resources, but today we have laws that halt such conquests in most cases, but it doesn’t stop super powers from re-annexing territories in their name like Russia taking Crimea. Russia said it had claims to owning Crimea and they were willing to fight it out and protect it once they reconquered it. That’s ownership not wishful thinking or emoting on behalf of wishful thinking.”
So which is it?
Oh black and white Wendy…
Are you a panda or a zebra? Those are the only two extremes that exist in the animal kingdom, one or the other.
Neither of us are going to have to relinquish anything…
You’re just scared of a future that won’t exist.
Also, even if I did have no plans to relinquish what I gained from being who and where I am, that would not make me more of a hypocrite, we would be equally hypocritical… what is your objection to logic?
But as it stands you are the one arguing against illegal immigrants to conserve the same America that was built by illegal immigrants in the first place. I’m not arguing this hypocritical point, I’m arguing against it. Ergo, you are more hypocritical because you are claiming more hypocritical things.
Makey sensey?
"WendyDarling’ post :
Um, asshole, don’t tell me what I am for. I am not for open borders. I own the fact that I want, regardless of who deserves what, to protect what is mine, and not put extra burdens on the state and taxpayers that might affect me and mine. Not becuase I am better than Mexicans, but because I want what I want. Unlike you I don’t have to base this on some kind of false moral ground.
Note the above. I am not a hypocrite. I am honest about being selfish. I do not have to have some myth that I deserve this stuff. You tell yourself a story to reassure yourself you deserve it more than someone else.
Don’t ever tell me what I believe again, you shallow binary idiot.
Yup, its about power.
I never said they owned the whole continent. But Europeans based on the lies in Christianity and based on Royal rights, took away the entire continent - And this included permanent settlements - but for a few small places those indians who survived were forced to live in.
Precisely. They could not defend it. It has nothing to do with morality. It had to do with power. The peopel who came and took nearly everything were not legal immigrants, had no right to it and took it. And if some government does this to you, should things change, it will be legal also. They made up legal shit. And just like you they needed stories to justify their actions. They did it for Jesus, they had the right because they were Christians and these were heathens, they were expanding the rightful empires of their kings and queens. They couldn’t face and you can’t face that they just did stuff because they could. They didn’t deserve what they took, they took it. And some of them were exceptionally greedy and vicious about it. Others were not like that. I dislike people who take stuff they don’t need adn will kill to be richer. They generally think that is bad themselves so they make up stories about why they deserve to take vastly more than they need. Most of the arrivals were not like that. But I don’t see it in moral terms.
Look, asshole. Making up your own weird paraphrases for my position just makes you look stupid. I am not trying to shame Europeans, now or then. I understand that they did what were the cultural habits of the time. It’s you who want to present the whole thing in moral terms. Its you who think you deserve what you have, being descended from X. We don’t deserve it more than anyone. We don’t deserve it less either. We have it and we have the system that backs this up. I am for this to a great degree, for selfish, not moral reasons, and I don’t need to judge the immigrants, legal or otherwise as immoral. You need the hate you have because otherwise you’d feel guilty. They have to be bad, so you can feel like you deserve it more than them. You are just the beneficiary of power.
You psychologically need them to be classed as bad.
They are not. They are simply trying to improve their lot, just as the Europeans who came here were trying to improve their lot. Get, people doing what their cultures tell them is ok, given their desires. Now note some of the people who took the most when they came over didn’t need much. These people took enormous swathes of land and resources and killed as a rule people to maintain this. The average illegal immigrant gets by with not very much and does not kill to maintain that. Yes, you will see them as evil and your ancestors who took much more than they needed as good and fine.
You need to feel like you are one of the good guys, entitled to what you have. I have no such illusion. You are not morally superior per se to an illegal immigrant.
I have no illusions about the Europeans who came and I don’t need to see them as bad. And I don’t need to see the Mexicans illegals as bad or good, or reassure myself with fantasies that I deserve what I have more than them. I still want it. I still support closed borders. I just don’t have your fantasies. IOW you are more cowardly, because you can’t face what you are actualy doing. You need this hallucinated myth to justify your deserving.
Strawman arguments and your hallucinations of moral superiority.
Putin certainly had a much better claim than the US did to Texas/New Mexico etc. They also had to make up stories to justify the war that got those places from Mexico. They couldn’t face that they just wanted it and took it. Just as you must snarl about the immoral illegal immigrants to feel like it is ok to have what you have. You are the lucky beneficiary of military might. Me too. (of course both of us have worked and the specifics of what we own may have to do with all sorts of positive qualities and we paid taxes to support that might, etc. but the fact that we are on this side of the border and have had the opportunities we got from the get go and many Mexicans did not from the get go has nothing to do with us deserving. It has to do with our luck. You need to think you have some special mythical deserving and this makes you superior to people coming here and justifying this in their own ways. I don’t. I want what I want.)
It pisses me off that so many people have this binary brain thing. It is so facile. He made a noise that sounded like team B, therefore he is team B and so I know everything about him, I can even talk for him or tell him what he wants and believes. To people like you there is only your team and the other team. One has to be right and it is your team. These teams are monolithic. And so you are off on your crusade against the infidels and nothing can bring nuance or complexity into the discussion. A neat, anxiety free way of viewing reality. Cookie cutter thinking. No chewing just swalling whole your teams protocol.
There are computer programs that could do as well having a conversation. IOW I am not sure the way you participate here passes the Turing Test.
Can you actually think for yourself or must you copy/paste from your team brochures?
And this is not a right wing thing, the left does this just as much.