Hi Dan. Thank you for the follow up. 
You said, †But everytime when I see so much words I have a huge headache. Simplicity , reduce everything into simplest form, if you can.â€
Yes, I hear you Dan. Editing is an art even more refined than writing itself. Thank you again for your comments Dan. passion
Hi Passion
I will admit that I am unsure of the difference between paradise and heaven. It is vague. I do know that heaven is a higher level of being than earth so cannot be where Jesus descended to.
However I respectfully disagree on salvation as a sure thing. Continuing on in Romans 8 offers another possibility:
It does appear that the spirit can be rejected leading to spritual death.
I have to agree with Bertrand Russell about that!
This all leads back to quality vs quantity.
Truth doesn’t get as much done as quick ideas that appear to be real & are easy to produce/use.
Hi Nick_A. Thank you for the follow up and for your suggestion about Romans 8: 12-17. I appreciate your comments and suggestions. You said, †However I respectfully disagree on salvation as a sure thing.â€
When a person becomes truly saved, he automatically receives a “renewed†spirit which immediately upon conversion translates into new behaviors in his/her life as exemplified by the fruits of the spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control (Galatians 5:22-23). These new behaviors are promptly incorporated into the old “sinful†nature (the flesh) upon the moment of salvation. This is not a precursor to salvation but rather an evidence of it, “after the fact.†Behavior that is lacking the fruit of the spirit response means that the person continues living in the “sinful nature†exclusively, without the evidence of the spiritual fruits – and it is this difference that the Romans 8: 12-15 verse you provided attests to.
By way of example, one of my prior posts on this thread described this action taking place with respect to the “thief on the cross†who at one moment was unsaved and reviling Christ from the cross (thus his behavior was according to his “old sinful natureâ€) but immediately following his becoming saved, his new behavior promptly evidenced that he was then living in the “Spirit†with the spiritual fruits.
In John 17: 11-13, Jesus states that of all the believers who God elected (saved, gave to Christ) that; “none is lost but the son of perdition†(v12). Therefore, it is impossible for any truly saved person to lose their salvation once it is granted by God to them (Judas being the only noted exception which occurred over 2000 years ago and for purposes relating to the Scripture being fulfilled – i.e. predestination).
Also, a person cannot possibly lose their salvation (assuming it was actually obtained), based upon their behavior because Eph. 2, and 2 Tim. 1:9 are clear that behavioral “works†cannot save a person, but only grace alone can.
â€Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,†2 Tim. 1:9
A few last thoughts: If a person could lose their salvation based upon their behavior, then Peter would have lost his salvation for betraying Christ, Apostle Paul would have lost his salvation because he murdered Stephen the martyr, Moses would have lost his salvation because he murdered the Egyptian (in pre-mediated cold blood no less), and David would have lost his salvation by virtue of his murdering Uriah the Hittite and having an adulterous affair with Urriah’s wife Bathsheba. There are many other examples too but these make the point. Of course, thankfully we cannot lose our salvation based upon our behavior once God has granted grace to us as these examples and verses illustrate. Thank God we are saved by grace not by our works.
Lastly, Romans 7:15-25 demonstrates unmistakably that our human behavior (including Apostle Paul’s in these verses) leaves little to be desired even after we are saved. Paul here describes his own “living in the flesh†and he is mortified by it! Yet, he concluded that his bad behavior was all covered by Grace and his salvation could not be lost as a result of his bad behavior. Thank you again for your comments Nick_A. I do appreciate your input much. passion
Hey Dan. Thank you for quoting Bertrand Russell where he said; “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts” - Bertrand Russell
Bertrand Russell’s quote is extremely profound - and it perfectly describes himself. Few philosophers were as certain of themselves as Russell. Therefore doesn’t his own quote condemn himself as being a fool and a fanatic? (which I believe he certainly was). passion
Hi Passion
I’m not speaking of works as much as attitude and remembering which works can effect but are secondary to the question of forgetting in favor of self deception. I see the following as evidence of what I believe to be the case. How would you see it differently?
I see this as related to the seven demons finding the home clean as quoted in a previous post. This is another reason why I am so against a lot of modern Christendom. A person can damage themselves in serious ways
Hi Nick_A. Thank you for your follow up. I appreciate it. You quoted Heb. 6:4-6 and I have just a few comments concerning it.
Heb. 6 is referring to those individuals who have been exposed to the gospel, seemed to have accepted it, only to later “fall away.†They were never really saved to begin with. They were Christians in outward appearance only. When hardship or some difficulty came, they “fell away” because the seed of their faith was planted on “shallow ground” (Matt. 13). They may have understood the gospel “intellectually†but it was never in their heart, so they “fell away†(Matt. 13, the entire chapter, may offer you some detail on this).
The ones who “fall away†as described in Heb. 6 are the same as those described by Jesus himself; “for many are called, but few are chosen†(Matt. 22:14). It is impossible for someone to “fall away†if they have been truly saved (I provided some verses in my previous post concerning this) as well as Matt. 7:22-23 and 2 Thess. 2:10-11, along with others. Thank you again for your comments Nick_A. I appreciate it. passion
Hi Passion
I must respectfully disagree. What do you read in Heb. 6:4-6 that suggests these people only “seemed to have accepted it?” To me it seems clear that they were once enlghtened and tasted the heavenly good and shared in the spirit. What more can one do? To become enlightened by definition means far more than “seemed to have accepted it.” It means having understood and accepted it.
Hi Nick_A. Thank you for your follow up comments. I appreciate it. You said, “What do you read in Heb. 6:4-6 that suggests these people only “seemed to have accepted it?”
1 John 2: 19 speaks to this as well as further illustrating the condition of those described in the Heb. 6 scenario:
â€They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.†1 John 2: 19 (bold & emphasis are mine).
These ones described in 1 John 2:19 were Christians outwardly and in every way appeared to be true believers – but they weren’t! And so, like the Heb. 6 text describes, they fell away in the course of time. But such ones, according to 1 John 2:19, “did not really belong to us†(true Christians), to begin with. If they had been truly saved (belonged to us) then they would have remained and not fallen away.
You said, †What more can one do?â€
This may be the heart of the issue Nick_A. Unless I’ve misunderstood you, it seems you believe that human effort plays a role in salvation. But as I see it, a person can do absolutely nothing to contribute to his salvation or his loss of it thereof (Eph. 2, 2 Tim. 1:9). If God does something it is perfectly done, and so “falling away” under true salvation cannot occur; even as it can occur when someone is not truly saved to begin with as 1 John 2:19 (and other verses) thankfully illustrate. Thank you again for your comments Nick_A. I appreciate it. passion
Hi Passion
Now we’re getting into some rough stuff. Human effort does play a part but not in what we do but in the attitude towards what happens. No one is doing anything. Stuff happens and continues to happen if we lose the capacity to remain present or conscious to external life and I believe it is the energy of the Holy Spirit that allows us to remain present so that we can “Know Thyself”, we can lose the way and worsen our condition It isn’t then that we can contribute to salvation but through our efforts it can be lost. Do you see the difference?
Our biggest difference is probably in our conception of re-birth. A true Christian is one who has gone through re-birth and I believe that especially in modern times it is largely underestimated. People are calling themselves born again only through self deception… Go back to 1 John 2 for a moment:
We don’t keep the commandments which is natural for our quality of being: the wretched man, so we don’t know him and the truth is not in us. Part of us does and other parts of ourselves do not. This is the human condition and each side struggles for supremacy. So how can we know with the whole of ourselves? It is through re-birth and the help of the Holy spirit that this condition becomes reconciled. This is a change in our being from multiplicity into inner unity. It is through inner unity or this level of being that allows “thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” The truly unfortunate situation IMO is that so many believe themselves having acquired inner unity even though they admit to sin that they hurt themselves as well as others by attaching egotism to the sacred as for example in this egotistic cumpusion to defend the Lord. The Christian effort is for is to move towards re-birth. Without it, temptation can begin to interpret and destroy it within oneself.
To continue with us is to accept the human condition Paul describes in himself as the “Wretched Man” and strive to become open enough to allow for its reconciliation. It is accepting ones nothingness which is the greatest insult to egotism. But when a person loses it, they believe it is unnecessary and instead go out and preach which is the movement towards Christendom and secularization.
So the question becomes how to respect what one has been given? As I understand it, it is our attitude that reflects the understanding of what we are in relation to our potential rather than what we say or do. The Christian effort should be aimed at what we ARE but more often than not in modern times this is considered irrelevant since the belief is that we already ARE and are saved. How do we change what we are? This is the idea of re-birth.
Hi Nick_A. Thank you for your follow up commentary. I appreciate it. You said, â€Human effort does play a part but not in what we do but in the attitude towards what happens.â€
If you are saying that after an individual has become saved, a clear and convincing change in his personality occurs including: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control, then I can see your point. However, this shift in the person’s very being is only evidence that God has already done something to him/her prior. Human effort cannot contribute to one’s salvation or to losing it if salvation has been truly given by God.
You said, â€â€¦It isn’t then that we can contribute to salvation but through our efforts it can be lost…â€
An individual through his efforts cannot become lost if he was at first truly saved as 1 John 2:19 demonstrates. As the verse shows, those who were lost “did not really belong to us†to begin with; they were never saved. By contrast, those who were truly saved, as the verse demonstrates, “would have remained with us.†So “falling away†after one has apparently been saved is simply the empirical evidence that such a person was only an outward Christian rather than a true Christian to begin with. And so it is that “many are called but few are chosen†(Matt. 22:14).
â€They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.†1 John 2: 19 (bold & emphasis are mine).
You said, †We don’t keep the commandments which is natural for our quality of being:…â€
Yes, this is true. No individual ever has or ever will keep the commandments perfectly. And 1 John 2:4 recognizes this and thereby condemns every human being who has ever lived to being a liar – exactly as Rom. 3: 4 says; “…yea, let God be true, but every man a liar…â€
So then in the empirical behavioral sense, every saved person who has ever lived “falls away†constantly because no saved person ever has kept the commandments; they are broken constantly, routinely, and often even unknowingly by every saved person. So, every saved man is a liar (Rom. 3:4), every saved man is wretched (Rom. 7), and every saved man is unrighteous (Rom. 3:10-11) and every saved person is all of these things even after becoming saved. So then how can any person ever become saved at all? The answer is pure unfettered Grace! (Eph. 2, 2 Tim. 1:9, Isa. 53:6, etc).
When a person becomes saved, it is Christ’s perfect keeping of the commandments that are credited to the saved individual’s account as if it was that individual who kept the commandments perfectly himself/herself in God’s eyes (Isa. 53:6). The saved individual commits the sin, Christ pays the price for the sin, and the individual’s account says, “no debt owed, paid in full†(thus, we are forgiven our sins).
No individual keeps the commandments perfectly, only Christ kept the commandments perfectly, and it is his perfection that is credited to the saved individual’s account as if that saved individual had kept the commandments perfectly himself/herself. Because human works are doomed to failure, individuals sin even after being saved, they break the commandments after they are saved, and every man is a liar as Rom. 3: 4 and 1 John 2:4 illustrate. It is for this reason (thanks be to God) that we must be saved by Grace rather than by our works (Eph. 2, 2 Tim. 1:9). 1 John 1: 8-10 agrees and Isa. 53:6 emphasizes it (among the others). Thank you again for your input Nick_A. I appreciate it. passion
Hi Passion
I appreciate your comments but I guess we have to agree to disagree. I’m not speaking of a change in personality but a change of essence; a change of being. This is re-birth. We cannot do it but we can begin to allow it to occur through the help of the holy Spirit by carrying our cross; become willing to openly and impartially experience ourselves in chaos as Jesus intended on the Cross,
You continue to quote 1 John 2:19 and certain people are being referred to. However if you go on to 24, it indicates that it can be lost by others not antichrists:
This is an important “IF.” Obviously it can be lost or there would be no reason to say IF.
Yes we are all sinners and it is through the Holy Spirit that our inability can be compensated for. The Ten commandments impossible for us are normal and natural for the change of being known as re-birth.
Becoming saved is one thing; it is a clean slate and establishing a connection with the higher. But that isn’t to say that it cannot be lost as Paul warns against. This connection can become so corrupt that it is held to earth.
Consider blaspheming the Holy Spirit. It is said to be an unforgivable sin. But who can blaspheme that doesn’t know it and have experienced it? Do you know what it means? Fortunately it requires someone rather advanced, who had acquired understanding, to be able to do it excluding the overwhelming majority but it pretty much guarantees loss of salvation.
It is an interesting and necessary question but nothing you have said indicates to me that those claiming a belief in Christ have a free ride. Therefore, I will continue to believe as I do.
Hi Nick_A. Thank you for your follow up. I appreciate your thoughts. You said, †I’m not speaking of a change in personality but a change of essence; a change of being.,â€
If you mean a change to a person’s soul essence then I see your point. If you are a saying a change to a person’s “flesh†(empirical self) as evidenced by his works, I would respectfully disagree because “there is none righteous no not one†(Rom. 3:10-11), et al. Nobody keeps the law perfectly and we all sinners regardless of our salvation status.
You said, â€This is re-birth.â€
The rebirth is when God in his mercy forgives an individual’s sins: past, present and future. It is not dependent upon human behavior once it is has been given to an individual by God. Otherwise, when David murdered Urriah the Hittite that sin would not have been forgiven, when Moses murdered the Egyptian that sin would not have been forgiven, when Paul spoke about not doing what he should do and doing what he shouldn’t do (Rom. 7) then those sins would not have been forgiven, when Peter betrayed Christ then that sin would not have been forgiven, I could go on and on with Biblical examples of saved men who committed grievious sin who were yet still saved men despite it. Of course, we know their horrible behavior was forgiven only because of God’s grace. Otherwise, according to what I believe is your position on this, it would mean they had fallen away to a state where repentance was no longer possible (i.e. your interpretation of Heb. 6) which I have been arguing against.
You said, †The Ten commandments impossible for us are normal and natural for the change of being known as re-birth.â€
No human being after becoming saved keeps God’s commandments perfectly. The ten commandments alone are not all that is required of us either Nick_A. There are far more commandments than the ten commandments alone that must be kept according to the Bible. For example, Jesus specifically wrote a new commandment in John 13:34 commanding that every believer must love one another exactly as Christ loved us. This is not a suggestion by Christ to us but a commandment that must be kept in addition to the 10 commandments; and I dare say it is a commandment that no believer has ever obeyed or can obey.
Have you or I ever loved another as Christ loved us? Certainly not! Yet, Christ commands it of us in John 13:34. You and I are obligated to meet the commandment. But you and I can’t. Do you see? It is not by our shallow human effort (“essenceâ€?), but only by God’s grace alone that we are truly saved and forgiven our sins. Our failure to measure up to the commandments does not cause anyone to “lose their salvation” either otherwise all men would be doomed - obviously - since no man can keep any of the ten commandments or the other equally powerful commandments. Therefore, I rest entirely on Grace alone.
Furthermore, even if an indiviudal (or his “essence”) were entirely perfect (an impossibility of course, but just for the sake of our discussion lets assume it) yet fails in only in one area, then that individual would still be guilty of ALL sins anyway; “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. James 2:10 emphasis is mine.
There are many many other commandments in the Bible that we are obligated to meet as well and cannot. That is why it requires God’s Grace alone. Otherwise if it is by human work and will (or essence as you call it, or anything else but God’s grace alone) then Christians are doomed and Christ died in vain as the Bible says in Gal. 2:21, “I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.†The keeping of the law includes the physical empirical keeping of the commandments (all of them) and the Bible specifically says that righteousness does not come by it – only by Grace.
You said, â€Consider blaspheming the Holy Spirit. It is said to be an unforgivable sin. But who can blaspheme that doesn’t know it and have experienced it? Do you know what it means?â€
Any Christian or Bible student can know exactly what it means by studying the Bible because Mark 3: 30 tells us specifically what it is and what it means.
You said, â€Fortunately it requires someone rather advanced,…â€
I respectfully disagree. I don’t believe that one needs to be “advanced†to know the answer to this question since the answer is in the Bible, Mark 3: 30, and it is very unambiguous.
You said, †It is an interesting and necessary question but nothing you have said indicates to me that those claiming a belief in Christ have a free ride. Therefore, I will continue to believe as I do.â€
Fair enough Nick_A. It was never my intention to change your mind, only to discuss it with you; and I’m thankful to have had the opportunity and pleasure to discuss it with you too Nick_A. Thank you again for your input. Passion
Was Confucius a Confucian? Was Buddha a Buddhist?
Enough said. And besides, Jesus was God incarnate (simply speaking) - it’s just as pointless to ask if he would be Republican/Democratic, Pro-this/Con-that, etc.
No, Jesus was not a Christian, nor would he be today. Remember his temper tantrum in the temple regarding taxes and money? I think his teachings lead away from organized religion. He taught independence by telling us to take the log out of our own eye before commenting on the splinter in another’s eye and other related teachings.
I favor lightkeeper.
Jesus never claim he was a christian.
I want to add at the period of Emperor Constantine, who got rid of the paganism and made chrisitianity the prime religion, everything became crazy, it was his ideas that was the authority and his interpretations
Jesus didn’t want Christianity either.
Hi Passion
I’m sorry to mislead you. I wasn’t implying that you were trying to change my mind but only that it didn’t happen with our discussion. No harm no foul.
Yes, I mean referring to the soul. Re-birth for me is actually referring to awakening a developing soul.
I feel I must warn you that my interest is in esoteric Christianity and much closer to the
Eastern beliefs. As such I’m overwhelmed with its logic as related to its psychology. Words like re-birth have definite meanings for me within contexts that are not the norm here.
I won’t get into the spirit body but re-birth as I’ve come to understand it, is far more than forgiveness.and metanoia which is a beginning.
The Ten Commandments are easily kept at the level of being possible for us in the Kingdom as re-birth. The reason we cannot is by our dual nature and its falling into corruption. But for man as inner unity, at a level of being we cannot comprehend, it is just common sense. It is through the Holy Spirit that man can become his potential within divine plan which is not pontificating on earth.
This is what I mean by not understanding:
Is that to say that people not comprehending Jesus and naturally suspicious of what was happening were blaspheming the Holy Ghost? Of course not. It has deeper meaning. One has to be open to grasp its psychology.
The extraordinary thing about Christianity is that it can appeal to the basic good human being and yet contain such awesome depth to inspire any true thinking philosophic mind.
One of my ancestors was an archbishop and friendly with Helena Blavatsky, the founder of Theosophy. I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall during some of their discussions. They may have gone over my head but I would welcome it. That depth is little known in the
West.
That is a bold claim that you said, does this implys you knew what Jesus wanted?
A good definition of a christian is “someone you wouldn’t mind living next door to forever”…
This guy comes pretty close -
STEPHEN AND THE HITMEN by Mick
There’s a true episode in the life of Stephen of Perm, one of the early Russian missionaries that shows how everybody likes a true, proper Christian:-
He discovered in the region of Perm pagans with a different language and therefore out of reach of the Gospel.
He learned their language and went out to preach in their midst.
The local shamans wanted to destroy him and they sent a group of armed men to kill him.
They came back and the shamans said, “Is he dead?”
“No”, they said, “we couldn’t kill him, when we met him face to face, there was such love and openness in him that we knelt down and begged for his blessing.”