But when you see that you cannot love the creation, then you cannot love the creator. As part of organic life on earth we love selectively. This is natural for our being as it is.
But to love creation means to be able to love unconditionally which, in spite of what some New Agers may tell you, is impossible for us other than in our dreams.
My path is not Anthroposophy though I like a lot of what Rudolph Steiner has brought. His understanding of Satan as the dual influence of Lucifer and Ahriman is quite thought provoking. Christ in relation to it is another topic.
While the Ahrimanic influence pulls man into materialism, the Luciferic influence is the attraction to the beauty of la la land. Not easy trying to be human under such circumstances.
I don’t lend religion much thought, but I once read about a Christian interpretation where Satan was portrayed as a prosecuting attorney, working with God rather than against him.
The original ‘ha-satan’ was a term used to describe ANY adversary of the hebrew culture/faith.
Christians took that ball and ran with it. Satan doesn’t ‘want’ anything, as there is no concious entity ‘satan’. The history and anthropomorphization of the ‘any and all adversaries’ into ‘THE unholy ultimo-ubervillain’ easily traced by anyone not blinded by biblical pinache.
Detrop, what happens if the “prosecutor” gets out of line and goes too far? Who is gonna keep him in check? It is funny that the supreme court gets put in by the president, and they are the only ones who can define his actions being wrong, keep him in line if he strays. Kind of like a car thief who gets to pick and hire his judge, jury, and prosecutor. Further,
what is the difference between and used car salesman and a pickpocket?
the both have the same goal, yes they use their superior knowledge to take your money. Only one is rewarded and looked up too, the other punished? Why? Is it because the salesman pays taxes and gives the government their cut, and the pickpocket trys to evade this, in effect, robbing uncle sam too? Shouldn’t using your superior knowledge to mislead, rob, and take advantage of weaker people be against the law? You know, I would say that if a preacher spent his life misleading others in God’s name, dropped out and began to gamble, steal, and do drugs, In a way I think he would be taking a step in the right direction. At least he is no longer really pissing off God really bad. He would only be hurting himself instead of endangering God’s children(who he loves very, very, very much, every last one of them.), and their eternal futures. J.I.
Detrop, what happens if the “prosecutor” gets out of line and goes too far? Who is gonna keep him in check? It is funny that the supreme court gets put in by the president, and they are the only ones who can define his actions being wrong, keep him in line if he strays. Kind of like a car thief who gets to pick and hire his judge, jury, and prosecutor. Further,
what is the difference between and used car salesman and a pickpocket?
the both have the same goal, yes they use their superior knowledge to take your money. Only one is rewarded and looked up too, the other punished? Why? Is it because the salesman pays taxes and gives the government their cut, and the pickpocket trys to evade this, in effect, robbing uncle sam too? Shouldn’t using your superior knowledge to mislead, rob, and take advantage of weaker people be against the law? You know, I would say that if a preacher spent his life misleading others in God’s name, dropped out and began to gamble, steal, and do drugs, In a way I think he would be taking a step in the right direction. At least he is no longer really pissing off God really bad. He would only be hurting himself instead of endangering God’s children(who he loves very, very, very much, every last one of them.), and their eternal futures. J.I.
From what I understand, the traditional Christian understanding of the devil is one which connects to the whole mystery of evil itself. While one could ask “what motivates this guy - he has to know he’s going to lose”, I think this fails to appreciate what blind hostility and depravity do to a person’s mind, even that of an otherwise intelligent individual. I’m sure most of us have seen intelligent, clever people become possessed by over the top anger - to the point that they lose sight of basic common sense.
I’d imagine that’s what Christians would say about the devil - according to his natural constitution, he’s quite intelligent, in possession of many gifts which to a human being would seem to be miraculous even (but they’re not, since they’re natural to him - they are to him what hands and eyes are to us - the whole point of a miracle is that it’s something happening in a nature that is not native to it…like spontaneous healing, etc.), he’s very very old, very experienced, etc… yet he’s so angry and depraved, all of that kind of gets negated, save where it can perhaps serve his malice.
So I guess the final answer would be that Satan really has “no point”, save to take every possible opportunity to oppose his Maker.
I wonder if he could be the spirit of rebellion in us all? His ideas, and goals are exactly the same as ours and our leaders. Can someone prove otherwise? Could we defend this spirit of rebellion? Is there some purpose here?
The used car salesman (looked up to?? ) gives something to the consumer in exchange for the worth of the person’s money – the used car. It’s a financial transaction. With the pickpocket, there is no conscience exchange, but maybe the education to protect one’s money better.
Are you serious? You really believe we cant love unconditionally? Willing love is not hard once you get used to it, and the more you do it, the more nothing matters. I will love to the infinite all the time, and as a result when I see or meet people its almost become confluent in my daily life. Id have to say your belief wont allow you to love unconditionally. Have the faith that its so and it will be.
Also, when considering this topic once again, I think I have a working answer. Of course this is being used with Christian symbolism, considering the devil as a person, for he lives through us. Anyway, God uses the devil or evil in order for us to learn. It is only through good and evil that we can learn. When we do evil things, they come back to us. When we do good things, they come back to us. When we finally learn all of this, and decide to yield to the good and evil, not searching after one or both, then we have learned our lesson. The devil is a means to an end, and this end we must all inevitably succumb to.
I don’t understand. Isn’t the lesson to learn to seek the good results by performing good behaviour – so we eventually leave off the painful evil behaviour? There seems nothing to gain by continuing in evil behaviour, if the first half of your analysis is right.
You answered your own question partially. The lesson is to first learn to seek the good results by performing the good behavior. The bad behavior, ie. selfish or evil desires, are performed first, and when you have enough of gettin the evil results that derive from the evil behavior, you then move to doing more good behavior, inevitably receiving good results. But the entire point of it all, is to realize we dont “want” the good or bad results, but simply to accept them both. We had to eat the fruit from the tree, which produces the knowledge of good and evil, ie. a good cause will produce a good effect and a evil cause will produce an evil effect, to finally realize we dont want or desire for any of the fruit as to be satiated in this knowledge.
Sure God has power over Satan! Jesus says in Scripture that he saw Satan fall from heaven,
and exileing from Heaven demonstrates power.
(And God uses the wicked.)
“God rest ye merry gentlemen
let nothing you dismay.
Remember Christ our Savior
was born on Christmas day
to save us all from Satan’s power
when we were gone astray.
O tidings of comfort and joy!”
To answer your second question, you wouldnt, thats why you stop bad behavior, and perform good behavior; because your tired of the bad results.
In regards to your first question, the good results are fine, and I couldnt imagine that you wouldnt want them in themselves. Its the going after them that becomes a problem. When one comes to the point to where he sees the fleeting nature of them, in that they dont last forever, and in this realization one comes to accept that the good will pass, he allows it to come to him as it may, not necessarily wanting for either good or bad, but accepting both.
Rhein wrote:
This free will only exist in our free will, which is ultimately only a means for us to learn from our choices, which is what God wants.
No, you said: “Not even in Christian texts does it claim God has any power over Satan. Satan, even as a demon/fallen angel, would have free will.”
I’m not sure of your perspective, so I should probably ask: In your opinion, does God use us free-willing humans by having us commit certain actions for the sake of intervening in human life. Are these acts meritorious?
I have often wondered why, does doing “good” involve sacrifice on our part. If we want to be like God, we would all be sacrificing our desires for the good of others. If Jesus was God in the flesh, and He said that “Whoever of you wants to be the greatest, must be a servant to all.” Nobody seems to believe, or wants to do that though. Going back to what I have said before, evryone wants all the glory and power, but none of the responsibility. The lower people seem to bear this load. “Fall guys”? Could it be we still want to be God, and not willing to settle being God’s Sons? The prodigal son parable keeps popping into my head.
) gives something to the consumer in exchange for the worth of the person’s money – the used car. It’s a financial transaction. With the pickpocket, there is no conscience exchange, but maybe the education to protect one’s money better.