Nick,
have you a contribution to make, or are we to put up with your endless cyncism? It is a shame really, since I don’t actually think we are far apart, but your attitude is really very juvenile.
Shalom
Mastrubation doesn’t have to be the source of a righteous mind beginning.
this is also about free will not just righteousness itself.
by self-love i was refering to something other than mastrubation , something of a higher syage of maturity a grand example would be helping others - self-love can be exercized into that position
(not sexually , unless of course you would prefer all those negative reactions of yours to come down so soon on yourself , you will start to blame others for your actions and so forth).
It is the new improved me Bob. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. Forget the deep stuff. Now it is time to go with the flow and be wonderful. So now I’ll be wonderful, say wonderful things, compliment wonderfulness and everyone will be happy. No law against being “wonderful.”
I’m a little beat now. I just typed out this long response for another site. This person is trying to feel me out. Though related to Righteousness is not so wonderful and could never work here. I copy it here as proof. So now I get the best of both worlds.
R N
I agree that there are many sources that determine our subjective perception of the “Good.” However, I can see I didn’t make the distinction clear between my conception of the relationship between wisdom and good. I consider wisdom as an ability to appreciate higher relationships and the good as expression of this knowledge. Consider the famous Serenity Prayer:
God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.
You couldn’t substitute the word good for wisdom. Wisdom, I believe, is the ability to interpret knowledge to find the Good in relation to the dharma… Philosophy defined as the “Love of Wisdom” is then the drive to acquire this ability.
I cannot prove it to you but my belief is that revelation of this wisdom is experienced first as a quality of emotion. It is why the idea of Apatheia was valued in Christianity as favored by Evagrius Ponticus. He described it as being “without emotions” or "freedom from emotions. This freedom allowed the entrance into our being of higher emotions associated with consciousness. It is the change of quality of emotion. Our negative acquired emotions are replaced by “feelings” or higher human emotions normally blocked by our negativity. They in turn would allow for the experience of “meaning” and wisdom becomes an extension of this additional experience.
I cannot prove this to you. The desire that is felt within for the higher good is a personal need. When something enters as it did with Simone, it is a very human experience and IMO is an important aspect of acquiring wisdom.
I sense it is there and am attracted to it especially since I don’t feel “meaning” as I am now. I feel something missing that goes beyond good sex and good scotch.
You believe that? So you judge it to be true? That would make it ‘subjective good’ according to your ditinction, wouldn’t it?
No. It just means I have a subjective impression of the objective good. My interest is in the direction of the objective good so I try to become open to it.
How could you possibly know anything about the highest objective good for man? That would involve not judging it’s goodness (which would make it impossible to judge it to be the highest good). The word good refers to a type of judgement that humans can make. So either your notion is incoherent with the english language, self-incoherent, or you are a jedi and believe that there is a magic force (called ‘objective good’) that only you and the other jedi’s can access, but that there is no evidence for. For the sake of my judgement of your sanity, I hope it is not the latter.
My path has been described as esoteric Christianity. It professes that re-birth is conscious evolution. It would take a whole thread to explain this and would still be incomplete. I must have over $500 worth of books, some absolutely brilliant, by people that have understanding far exceeding mine. It provides a basic skeleton of world creation and man’s place within it both as a seed and as evolved and invites the interested to verify it through self knowledge.
So I don’t “know” but “suspect.” It is a hypothesis that I am trying to verify.
No, we could choose to break it down that way, or we could choose to say that we have five senses. or we could say that we have thousands of cells in our central nervous system. Or we could say that there is one whole self. None of these in incorrect, but they are certainly not the unquestionably best way of looking at things all the time. We could also argue that we don’t experience an external world. Or that we only experience an external world through sensation, but that thought and feeling are an internal world that we experience. Why is any of these a superior way of breaking things up than the others? Just saying it is so is not very compelling. I can’t really comment on the rest, as I don’t see much point in embracing your apparently arbitrary distinctions.
Again, presence is something that must be personally experienced. It is an ancient idea and Socrates in book 1V of the Republic even spoke of as “order his own inner life” it but not by that name:
But direct experience isn’t the sole source of knowledge. People with brain anurisms smell burnt toast. Does that mean that there is invisible burnt toast that no one else could know about, because they are special? I believe that there is a country called china on the other side of the world, but I have never experienced it directly. The problem is that there are better explanations for what you report to be an enlightenment than what you have offered.
I agree that self deception is a major problem but all I can say from my own experience that attentive presence is not possible during self deception.
The interesting thing about black sheep is that statistically speaking, they are mostly crackpots. The only way to tell the crackpots from the really brilliant people who understand things better than everyone else is to question them and see if what they have to say makes sense and is well thought out. So far, I am sorry to inform you, what you have to say doesn’t seem to make much sense and doesn’t look very well thought out. That isn’t anything to be ashamed of, because it is a statistical fact that most individuals won’t be able to outthink the cumulative thinking of the human race to date.
A crackpot is not a black sheep but a white sheep with hang-ups. Both are unconscious slaves. I have a ways to go before I could honor myself with such a designation as a real “black sheep.”. I have read and agree with a real Man defined as “Master of Himself.” This is presence plus. It is not me yet I can believe it to be possible and even believe that I may have known of at least one real Man that did not take the low road because of this freedom…
.
Nick
"All men are ready to die for what they love. They differ only through the level of the thing loved and the concentration or diffusion of their love. No one loves himself.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil…Gravity and Grace
This is pie cake Question!
Begining of Righteousness is FAITH!
Faith is the begining of Righteousness! You can be a filthy scum sucking liar, thief, murderer but your faith will still be counted as a Righteousness in you! Dont expect this to get you to heaven the way Calvanism dictates.
Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Righteousness?
What a senseless idea.
As I said in the being I am slow comprending slow things and fast in knowing the whole picture.
Nick
you provided too much information only the mind of bill gates could comprehend.
!
Ah, this reply I was looking for. But when do faith ends? or stop? When does people turn away their faith.
Faith ends when you allow doubt to prevent you from seeking truth. Intial doubt is not a bad thing. Bible says to question all things, and if you read the Bible you will notice that God does not get all testy when people ask for proof about something. He knows we are limited!
Allowing doubt to stall you from seeking truth is the common reason for anyone who has “lost their faith”.
exactly. So I wish to ask how does having faith prosper oneself?
What on earth do you mean by prosper oneself?
A
“The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom…”
– Psalms 111:10
– Proverbs 1:7
– Proverbs 9:10
(Okay, so Bob’s answers were a little more involved, but I’ve always preferred the simple wisdom of Scripture. Luv ya Bob!)
mrn
The beginning of humility is the dawning of righteousness, I think.
The scriptures says in order to prosper one must be righteous, and repent from all wickedness for say you will feel god’s wrath.
book of mormons
So I suppose the word prosper oneself, meaning prosperity. How can being righteous will assure your finacial and necessity needs.
Simply, if you have faith that being righteous will guranatee you a good job or the job you seek, and believe God will give you a helping hand.
Or is it being righteous or the idea of it is simply unpractica, and no benefit is involved but simply just being a moral person.
As the word righteous and honestly are similar. “When a person is so honest or righteous, or full of faith, people often called them a fool, wierdo, or crazy.” shintoism
As if you are so honest you are easily exploited by your boss or govt, so how can being righteous prosper you?
Ok, let me help clarify what true prosperity is!
Just having a good job and able to pay all your bills with money to spare is not considered prosperity in Gods eyes!
Remember that old line? What does a man prosper/gain/achieve/attain if he gain the entire world but lose his soul in the process?
Do not seek after the material possession of this world, instead seek ye first the kingdom of Heaven and all these things will be added unto you!
Gods definition of prosperity and the human one ARE different! It is best to remember that in order to properly understand the bible it is SUPER important to understand the context upon which things are written. Other wise you get the debate about if Jesus was really nailed to the cross by His hands? Guess what! Jesus was nail by His hands! But But But… so says the learned scholar… “The hands cannot hold the weight of a Body! Therefor this is a bald face lie!”. Guess what ladies and gentlemen? The word for hand in the origional language mean from fingertips to elbow. This does include the wrist! Ruka in Russian means the same thing… from tip of finger to elbow. No surprise there that a whole big ole mess got started because someone took it out of context!
Being honest does not mean someone can take you for a ride. It only means that people are going to hate you for it and make things more difficult. Historically proven fact! People hate truth and will do anything they can to sweep it under the rug. The only time people like truth is when it does not cause them to face thier own inequity and they now have leverage against their foe!
Hi again. I have a somewhat more traditionally scholastic understanding of righteousness/justice. (Not that others’ definitions weren’t fruitful.)
As Plato sets out in his Republic, justice is man being in proper order: mind over will over passions. The man who is not this way suffers his own misery of inner spiritual war with himself.
Now the righteous man has God over reason over will over passions. The original sin (however literally you take it) is a separation of man from God such that man suffers a living death of the soul unless he submits to God and takes on righteousness.
And that is the reward of righteousness – wholeness/holiness. 
mrn
Astral
Yes, thats it. Prosperity through rightoeus comes through the assumption of an afterlife, meaning not to seek treasures of this world but the next.
If we have full faith of this belief , then this is why one wants to be righteous. However, I believe parents will think differently, which stops us being righteous. Which makes me think , one should not be priest or nuns, without the consent of their parents. Because you do not honor your parents then. Right? In the book of herman hesse " Siddhartha, the buddha ask permission from his father, until he said yes if not siddhartha will die until he said yes.
in the end , being righteous is not just prosperity of the assumption of the next world. Righteous also belongs prosperity to this world as well. But how so?
my real name
exactly.
I hope you ment righteous BRINGS prosperity… lol.
But all things being equal for the most part I will agree with Dan and My Real Name. The ideas and mentions are for the most part correct. But never forget that Faith is what Justifies and gives you Righteousness. Under no circumstances is there ever Righteousness without Faith!
Good works are not enough to bring righteousness, but Faith will be counted as a righteousness without any good works!
However Faith alone is not enough to save you. You must have works for your faith to justify you!
Are you so righteous that you would go major in religion and hope that your parents would understand that you could get a job with that?
it seems the word righteous, as the other dan says, seems senseless. For it cannot be explain, yet, it feels so right that it may prosper oneself, if one puts it into test.
Even though, if righteous can be prosperous, no one would believe that he prosper by being righteous but will say he gain what he desire by right thinking and actions at the time.
I did mention in an earlier post that we should not confuse God’s version of prosperity with mans version of it! This naturally begs to ignore what you parents think about your theological aspirations! The reason you prosper by being righteous is because God adds things unto you! Get the picture?
In many Ways people only think of their relationship with God as one way… YOUR THE SERVANT! But dont be so narrow minded! In many ways God serves His servants! Look what God blesses us with and without any appreciation in most cases!
So stop and think what it means int he Bible where it says the servant shall become the master, and the Master the servant! Not all things are literal and some are metaphorical! And somethimes it is BOTH!
Because of your Faith you will obtain righteouness and God gives according to your works! Those who seek first the kingdom of heaven will have prosperity and things of the world added to them.
I think there is no way of explaing how righteous can prosper oneself, and this quote is the limit/ maxim. For as Kant says, the highest worth, is one’s moral worth and dignity, for those who assume that there is a moral authority.
I think the answer to this question of what is the beginning of righteousness, is when one believes that there is something to gain, which is his duty as well, for those who does believe and have faith in the bible. god. For the answers for this question should come close to the bottom line.
Faith+ hope+charity = kingdom of heaven " book of mormon.
So your saying in a long way that God is full of bull when He said that Faith is the begining of righteousness? Your a braver being than I. There is no mistake about the begining of Righteousness.
God stated that even the ungodly will have their faith counted as a righteousness, and also stated that those without faith have ZERO righteousness! This is not a hard concept to grasp.