Wretched Man

Hi Angel,

I am pleased that you have chosen to adorn our discussion your womanly intuition. We men seem to just build walls. I took some time answering, but you may see why below.

A number of Sages have actually pointed out that it is only through knowing ourselves that we come to know anything, since we are otherwise blocked and unable to get a full picture. It is in fact the premise for “knowing” at all. There is relatively little to be read in Christian literature, since the assumption is that we are all full of wickedness anyway, so what do you need to “know”? But this is generally where Greek thought has derailed Semitic understanding.

I would add that the experience of wisdom beats any forum or book, which is why we are often running around in circles. On the internet we only experience how people express themselves – we don’t know how they live. We could all be a bunch of hypocrites for all our opposites in the web know. What is missing is the “new” or “renewed covenant” in the spirit – a spiritual covenant, and of a different quality to the last. This is because the trappings of the material world pre-occupy most people and we need to find a different base on which we can live a spiritual life.

It could be as simple as obeying the commandments or precepts of the torah or Tao, but we realise that we have been doing this or something similar all of our life. Jesus advises someone who is in this position that he sell everything and give the proceedings to the poor and follow him. We must ask ourselves how serious is our predicament (“wretchedness”) and how radical the step must be to come free. I experience my parish as far too compromised by obligations to the system, although I am also employed by the church. I personally haven’t found the alternative (“the spiritual community”) yet.

I am guided by my experience to say that communion with God and community is OK for others as long as it is doing people good and has no real influence. If individuals are out and about working for the realm of God, that is OK. But if a group of people start organising things, that is where problems arise – even today in our “enlightened” society. Those who break out are no problem as long as there isn’t enough of them to disturb the “factory”. The reason why Jesus was so radical in things he said, was to prepare people for the unpleasant truth that those who “reach their heart” are often met with incomprehensible hatred. No wonder then that they went into seclusion.

The spiritual church was always among the friars and priests with no influence. The more influence they had, the more politically interesting they became and all the more corruption became a problem. I have a feeling that this is why Jesus told his followers not to build hierarchies, but to remain the circle of sisters and brothers. This, however, hasn’t worked. The Churches became political and we know what happened.

I think that this is the most difficult stage. It is the combination of humbleness and interaction that we fail in, because the world doesn’t care for someone who is humble. I notice in my job that the quiet form of leading people in elderly care isn’t always what is called for. I occasionally have to put on a mask to achieve my goals – but that isn’t too often, so I suppose it is acceptable. When you listen to your heart, you often get told (a German expression) “you are too good for this world!” which is more critical than it sounds. It means that you should use your elbows a bit more, push and shove, bark and bite if need be.

What I do think is a problem, is that most people remain on the surface, even within the Church. The “inner chamber” is often full of cobwebs because of lack of use. Introspection is a foreign word within the church, because it is very external. In fact externalisation of faith leads immediately to hypocrisy or contradiction – without being particularly “evil”. It is the nature of spirituality I suppose, and the reason Jesus told his followers not to throw pearls to the swine (no association meant). Spirituality is something that shows people their soul-mates or fraternal friends – bridging the cultural and even religious differences.

Most meditative exercises begin by teaching how to concentrate on something despite all of the internal and external disturbances. I find this to be so valuable in our day because most people I experience cannot concentrate, they cannot listen, cannot contemplate, but are eager to get their piece across before they become beside the point. If we could concentrate, we could hear that voice, see those images, gain insight and act upon them. Generally people who can listen are quiet for a long time but suddenly bring a gem into the conversation.

I have learned that it is very rewarding to let someone speak and take time before answering. We have done the occasionally on holiday with friends, maintaining a running discussion, but taking thoughts with us and perhaps answering the next day. But this kind of community is very rare and the people generally feel an affinity towards each other.

Shalom

Hi Bob,

It is the paradox that how we are, and who we are has nothing to do with our externalized selves. That our real self is found only within, and is found in silence before others. In a sense, we are hermits who follow a path no other can tred. I find it rewarding that while we all lead different external lives, we recognize those who have chosen the internal pathways.

I’ve stated before that I have nothing to seek after, no where to go, nothing to do. In different words you have said the same things. We have paid dearly for that understanding. :laughing: How we act out upon the world is ultimately guaged by our inward understanding. I wish I had a little more of that understanding, but I’m just a kid, so I have all the time in the world to be inwardly directed. Letting go of the ego distinction of external/internal is the first step. Conveniently, it is the only step, for then we no longer reify the wall between ourselves and that which is.

Easy to say, but hard to hold.

Hi JT,

Very true indeed!

Hi Nick,

So, my friend, what is the point of your posting here? Is it just the fun of “annoying the beast”? Is it just some perverted enjoyment out of “knowing” that everybody is just wasting down the drain? What is the point of Needleman’s books, is it like the “Watchtower” imagination of the Jehovah’s Witnesses who will be able to say at the end of the day “We told you so!” ?

But according to you there will only be that elite – nobody else can even grasp the truth. You sound more and more like a Jehovah’s witness!

Shalom

Hi Bob

I believe that deep ideas are worth discussing. Granted I would prefer doing it with people that also feel such discussions are worthwhile. There is no joy in the continuing lawful results such as war. The fact that sympathizers of the “Great Beast” get lawfully annoyed is not to suggest that I enjoy such annoyance. It is just another obstacle to common sense.

Needleman’s books such as Lost Christianity suggest the value of higher perspective and awareness of these “levels” that are so annoying. He has no interest in cackling: “I told you so” He, like others of this understanding, struggle to help the human condition at the risk of annoying the Great Beast.

Yes, this elite having become conscious of the human condition supported by the “Great Beast” will work towards helping others needing and willing to become aware of the absurdity in spite of all the PC protestations. No one said it would be easy.

Pebble in the pond.

True Kris, but is that all a person is. Perhaps it appears so because of a certain psychological prison natural for the wretched man…

So the question becomes if it is better to become content with or argue over prison cells, their size and decor or to desire to be one of the dreaded elite desiring to escape.

As a broad shouldered Aries male, this idea of psychological prison sanctioned and rewarded by the “Great Beast” himself is just not appealing. I’ll stick with Simone and the Christian conception of man’s value from a higher perspective

Nick,

As usual, you missed the message. I won’t put words in Kris’ mouth, but you twisted her statement into your own convoluted esoterica again. It isn’t annoying, Nick. It finally gets to the point of pathetic.

Tent

Pathetic? Is that the best attempt at insult you can come up with? You’re losing your touch. Perhaps because it is Sunday.

Pebble in the pond? Maybe I am missing it. A pebble in the pond to me is something the individuality of which is basically insignificant in the context of the gravel within the higher context of the pond itself much like a physical body functioning in society.

If I missed it, it won’t be the first time nor the last.

Nick,

I said pathetic not as an insult, but as an expression of sorrow. You have a good mind. Too good, and you miss seeing what is right under your feet. No insult was intended. There was a time for that, and it is long past.

Tent wrote:

Yes as the wretched man I am pathetic. Is there a better reason to seek to escape the cave in which all us wretched men dwell rather than fight or hide through escapism in a cave?

Nick,

Let’s try this. Last time, because I’m truly losing interest, but please consider: Struggling to escape the cave IS escapism. The more one struggles, the more ensnared in the net. When one finds true realization, the cave and its shadowy illusions simply evaporate. The very first step is in seeing that the cave itself is an illusion, a mteaphor. It is still standing outside and looking back in, all the while pretending to be inside. It is ego pretending to not be ego. The cave is a construct, like all of our constructs. Letting go of those constructs is both beginning and end, and one begins being and not being as.

I don’t think you will accept this. Your investment in the accoutrements of our nature, rather than our nature itself is a stopping point. As I and so many others have said, it is letting go, not building on, that is the AHA!

Perhaps some day… and I genuinely hope it happens for you.

Tentative

You just do not understand the cave analogy. You’ve got such a thing for “ego” that you will not allow yourself to appreciate the value of “Attention.” Without this tool of consciousness, there is no choice but to fall into the imagination of habitual life.

The sun represents the light of attention initiating as grace.

The cave is the world. The fetters or chains are the imagination. The shadows of ourselves are our passive habitual states; our acquired mechanical reactions to external influences. These shadows are our lives.

The educated in the cave are those with empirical knowledge. There is nothing wrong with empirical knowledge except that a person gets caught up in self importance becoming oblivious of man’s higher nature. From this perspective, their knowledge is also just shadows.

The struggle is between attention (self awareness) and imagination. Understanding the struggle requires attempts at the attention of self awareness. When you experience that you cannot retain attention and your life is attached to the earth and ruled by imagination, then you will comprehend the struggle. The question becomes how to Know Thyself in order to struggle with yourself.

The value of letting go isn’t to be comfortable in imagination but to become free of it. Then there is a foundation to build upon that can harmonize the three C’s kept chaotic by the human condition as the wretched man as described by Socrates in Book lV of the Republic

But these ideas concerning inner freedom are dead now in society and kept alive by a minority. It is a struggle and in fact this struggle with ourselves for reality requires help.

The ancient knowledge is always passed along in oral traditions. But when it is so inviting to create our own reality, why bother?

LMFAO No way am I throwing that pebble in this pond, I am going to hold on to it, I don’t want my pebble to be this disruptive.

Awww, c’mon Kris, It’s all the pebbles that make it what it is. It’s OK if some folks think they’re throwing rocks, we know pebbles when we see them. :smiley:

Nick,

It is you that doesn’t understand the cave analogy. The rest of your post proves it. (sigh) Go ahead Nick. I’m through with it.

Dear reader

This really is instructive. It shows how even though we give lip service to open mindedness, we are often far from it. The cave analogy even describes this attitude.

Socrates is describing what is termed the “elite” in this thread. The condemnation is the same except there is no board on ILP yet for public execution though give it a couple of years and with technology as it is, it may become the case. :slight_smile:

Another interesting question is this attitude towards disturbance. There is this IMO psychologically dangerous idea that disturbance should be avoided. The harm in this is that a person so escaping is under the power of disturbance. There is no inner calm to experienc exterrnal distrbance so no capacity to experience life with self awareness The idea should be to intentionally welcome disturbance so that a person can practice remaining present to it and this naturally refers to those who have experienced a little of what was previously described by Socrates.

The Christian admonition to “turn the other cheek” is a good example. It is not an act of cowardice but an exercise in presence. A person slaps you and the temptation would be to just automatically slap back. But all this happens normally with no self awareness at all so nothing is gained. the experienced is not lived through since we are in acute reaction mode. Turning the other cheek is a request to get slapped again but this time remaining present or self aware to the experience. In this way a person witnesses insult, anger, and whatever in them from the perspective of that which is self aware. In this way a person profits from blind cave experiences by consciously inviting the light to enter illuminating the experience so as to witness it and our normal negative reactions that are usually our lives. It is the means by which a person is not continually taken by disturbance.

But ideas like this once a common part of philosophy have been sacrificed to the god of self esteem so consequently become only the beneficial property of a minority that still inwardly resonates to the value of the cave analogy.

I would feel better about it if I could just think “your choice” but this isn’t choice but a collective human happening from blindly going with the flow. It is both lawful and karmic for cave life and the contented wretched man that continues on the wheel of samsara.

You are indeed on the wheel.

Bob,

Unfortunantly I am talking about 85% of the Human populace on the planet. So Though it my be polite and make those who are insecure enough to let the statement bother them feel better to know I was not talking about them since I did not mention them in the listing of names the statement went to…, it would however be completely illogical to write over 7.3 billion people so that a few could feel secure in the knowledge I was not thinking about them when I made the post.

The fact that you wrote me in that knowledge says I struck a nerve some doubt of yours perhaps…? This is what all of my posts are intended to do. To make you doubt, yourself and everything…And in doing so make you question and by questioning learn. And in the end I say alot but tell you nothing. The only thing learned is what you yourself percieve and by what revalation the words I write may cause. This is called non interferance.

Being Islamic or Musslim you should understand this concept better than some.

The Watcher,

The fact that you wrote in my thread saying “they” had me asking who you are talking about perhaps……?

Non-interference, according to my understanding, would hardly try to make me doubt or question since non-interference means not to intervene or intrude in the affairs of others.

On another note, perhaps you could have the intended effect on yourself, since you obviously have gaps in your education (no offence meant) and it is better to be sure of what you say before you try to teach others.

I am curious as to why you hold on to this prejudice – although I have elsewhere told you that you are wrong. It suggests that you have no real interest in what you write or in the people you write to.

Shalom

Hmm, Pebble is back with an explanation.

A pebble creates ripples when thrown into the pond, it displaces water also and becomes part of the pond, yet still a pebble even though it is part of the pond.

The pebble has caused things to change in the pond, not overtly significant but, it still is change. You can look and still see the pebble being a pebble even though it is now pond. if you look beside the pebble there is another pebble or rock or fish or snail or many many other pebbles.

To remove a pebble a snail a fish from the pond diminishes the pond, not significantly but it is diminished. the thing you removed stops being pond and becomes an item not pond.

We are all pond, yet, item. I may not be a fish maybe I am a pebble, But, without me that pond is diminished. The best part about being pond is it stays pond and yet changes its looks, its structure its temperature. it can be different yet still the same

For all it stays the same, it changes even if its items are all together because things move with in the pond even pebbles can shift around.
Pond is always new but old, same but different. Nothing is insigificant when looked at closely