Okay, Moreno. Is it okay if Martin beat Zimmerman to death? Is it not okay for Zimmerman to use his gun if he were underneath a Trayvon Martin beating the shit him and telling him “you’re gonna die tonight, motherfucker”?
'Cause that’s what Zimmerman claims and what no one has been able to show otherwise.
I really don’t know how many times I said I would not convict him, given what we could know. My Point is, Zimmerman, not a cop, started following someone at night, someone he suspected of potentially committing a crime. he got Close enough following this guy for a confrontation to be possible, and he had a gun. He fucked up. He was an amateur and also in the negative sense of that term. It is possible he was justified in the final situation of the shooting - again, utterly implicit in what I have said all along. However what he did was reckless and showed poor judgment, at the very least, and a person like that, who shows that kind of poor judgment, should not have a gun. Notice that was the punishment I felt we could mete out.
It is consistant with a number of stories, including murder on Zimmerman’s part. If he started the fight, he is a murderer. We can’t know this, hence my cautious sentencing. But he is dangerous.
How do following a suspicious person in your neighborhood and legally carrying a gun necessitate that he fucked up?
Should there be a law against watching suspicious people while carrying a gun?
When I point out that no one has been able to show Zimmerman’s story false I don’t meant hat that makes it true either. You should be able to get that if you read any of my other posts. I never presumed anything about your thoughts on convictions. But you do say “what Z did that night was wrong,” which is based on what? Because you would have done something different? Remember that Zimmerman didn’t have the hindsight you have now. And given what you don’t know for sure, I question you’re conviction in that judgement.
Let’s go back to this.
What do you mean “should be able to…” ? We’re all able to do that…doesn’t mean we should. And at 17 yrs. old, reckless fights with strangers is probably a bad choice. Sure, a limited exchange of blows and then a clean break doesn’t warrant bullets. But that’s not Zimmerman’s story. So if you’re going to pass judgement on Zimmerman, and you don’t know what exactly went down, you might try considering what exactly Zimmerman said happened. He testified he thought he was going to be killed, not just beaten in a fight.
Fuse, yes…there should be a law against closely following people with a gun and delaying them and attempting to detain them and what not.
In most places, that shit is against the law. It’s called harassment, or menacing, or unlawful imprisonment, or whatever depending on who’s laws you’re reading. Unfortunately these are not the kind of charges that are easy to file and prove and they’re not very effective at actually stopping the charged, so they go unenforced as a matter of routine in a lot of places.
There’s no evidence that he detained or attempted to detain Martin to my knowledge. If he did then he should pay a fine or lose his gun license (I’m sure he has lost this anyway already) or whatever. That would be proven separate from the issue of manslaughter/murder.
I’m saying that your objection right there is equally applicable to the claim that Martin attacked Zimmerman. ZImmerman’s injuries were superficial, and anyone should be able to understand that who gets hurt the most isn’t necessarily tied to who hit who first. Even then, Zimmerman was in pursuit of Martin, for what we now know to be no reason other than Zimmerman’s own state of mind. Martin wasn’t committing a crime. He wasn’t doing anything wrong. We know Martin didn’t make Zimmerman get out of his car. It’s pretty easy to see how Zimmerman was pursuing Martin in such a way that it became a hostile scene. Even if Martin hit him first…he’s hitting an armed man who’s much older than him who is probably threatening him and saying the kinds of things that assholes say to kids when they try and illegally detain them. I’ve probably had 20 old men in my life just act as though they’re allowed to block me on the sidewalk and make me listen to them while they shook fingers in my face, and the fact is I’ve got a right to tell them to fuck off without getting shot. If I don’t want to be followed and you keep following me then no matter what the technical language of the law, I’m being harassed.
You don’t think it was odd that a 29 year old man was in fear for his life in a fight with a 17 year old? A guy who had MMA classes and who was armed with a handgun? This guy was in a fight with someone 2/3 his age and he ended up afraid for his life.
Fucking amazing.
I mean the guy wants to be a cop. He rides around in his car like a cop. He uses cop lingo when he repeatedly calls 911 on all the people that he profiles like a cop, then he carries a gun like a cop, and he’s patrolling his beat like a cop, and he gets out to get closer to a suspect like a cop, but then…you don’t think he’d try and detain him there for a minute? Like the way that a cop might? Nah…he’d never do that.
Nothing to suggest that at all.
Wait…didn’t he say to the operator, “these guys always get away”?
Nah…he’d never try and illegally detain a kid walking home. Never.
Martin was probably in better shape. He played football and was an experienced fighter from what he detailed in his phone text records. Witnesses saw Martin on top of Zimmerman at one point.
That’s not the point. Proving Martin started the fight isn’t the point. It was the prosecution’s job to prove Zimmerman guilty and they couldn’t do it. The difference between you and me is that I am interested in further investigation whereas you think you know everything to pass judgement on people.
I think there’s a good chance he might have been trying to track Martin’s movements until police could arrive. Even so, guessing that he detained Martin and proving it are entirely different matters.
How do I think I know everything to pass judgement on people?
I’m passing judgment on Zimmerman because I know these things.
At best, Zimmerman is a pathetic fool, who has the worst judgment in the world, and out of some kind of pure idiocy managed to kill someone’s child and because no one saw exactly what happened, and he claimed to be trying to do good he doesn’t have to do time but there’s now a dead child and his own life is ruined.
At worst, he’s a murderer who got off on insufficient evidence.
About proving it…there are such things as cases which are decided on circumstantial evidence. Like ones where all the witnesses are dead. If you don’t think Zimmerman’s pattern of behavior might necessarily lead to detaining or at least delaying that kid, then I think you’ve got some real inner bias there man.
A big problem here is that because of the way this case went, you can now have something to think about when you’re walking home at night. Maybe a guy in your neighborhood thinks you look suspicious and he starts fucking with you. Maybe then you see what I’m talking about. I hope he doesn’t shoot you in the dark man.
idiot doesn’t add anything significant here. you say kid(s) plural when you only know about one incident with one kid.
you don’t know how it went down. maybe he was blindsided by Martin’s attack. he killed Martin, that’s a given, but he cannot be held totally accountable for the escalation of things if Martin attacked him and was going to beat him to death.
he was a neighborhood watch volunteer. he was supposed to watch out for the safety of the neighborhood, one which had recently suffered various burglaries. he had a reason to look out for suspicious activity. you know jack shit about Zimmerman’s profiling. i don’t know whether Zimmerman considered Martin dangerous or not. he didn’t say anything like that to the dispatcher that I’m aware of. so all you really have is “following.” you don’t know how or even if he was actually going to confront Martin. the cops were supposed to be on the way to the area.
“might necessarily” wtf?
I would like to know what really happened. There is a possibility that Zimmerman’s story is accurate, and that Martin threatened to kill him and was attempting to do so. A big problem I see is that so many people don’t care and are satisfied with their preconceptions.
Dude are you fucking with me now? I said kids plural because of his multiple calls to 911. He’s one of those weird dudes who does that kind of shit. Have you never met or been around these types? It’s a type. The wannabe vigilante. Neighborhood watch volunteers don’t carry guns and patrol alone. Give me a break.
You don’t know how it went down. I don’t know how you can be blindsided by someone that you’re following and that you’ve been following through the neighborhood. Did Martin disappear instantaneously, and then reappear like a character from mortal kombat behind Zimmerman and use a ninja move on him? Is that your gross speculative story that you spin immediately after saying that I can’t know?
My story is based on what has been shown to be an accurate profile of Zimmerman…through a pattern of behavior that he exhibited.
Zimmerman’s profiling of Martin was incorrect, and I think that he should be liable for that negligence. If he has a duty to protect the neighborhood, shooting the neighbor’s kid is a terrible way of trying to fulfill it.
I still don’t see how you can start the self defense in the middle of a fight that Zimmerman pursued. My mind is blown on that one. He physically pursued the kid. He got out of the car with a gun and went after him. What else do you want man???
Might necessarily. That’s a bad edit. Thanks buddy.
If anything the preconception is the one that people who fit Martin’s profile are criminals. I agree. We should challenge that kind of thinking.
Zimmerman was looking for a fight that night - it’s evident in his statements and actions. He deserved to get his ass kicked and go home bruised up and crying like the pussy/bully that he is. That is my judgement. That he fatally shot somebody in the process means he belongs in jail. If the law can’t put him there, then that is a fault in the law.
Cool, thanks!
That wasn’t my point, my point was that (unlike me) he wasn’t even specifically told not to pursue. He was told he did not need to pursue. After I asked what would happen if I did pursue, I was told there were no legal ramifications.
Pav, what reason over which Martin had any control, was Zimmerman following him for?
Or was it all just Zimmerman being a mistaken overzealous profiler?
The last thing I want to do is discuss the issue of the legality of guns, but I do think the subject of carrying a gun in public has much merit to the case. If Zimmerman was reckless it was for doing what is legal and apparently widely accepted in Florida. I would never let someone in my apt. if they had a gun on them and if I ran a business I would be very nervous to say the least; I would have to decide if I wanted to risk telling them to get the hell out, reticently helping them with whatever business they came for or calling the police and telling them that someone armed is in my business (and if they tell me that I had no business calling them being that he had a legal permit then fine).
Who are these people who take advantage of the law that allows them to legally carry a gun around in public and why don’t we hear more about tragedies that result from their recklessness?
Because Stuart, most reasonable people who carry guns legally aren’t actually doing shit like this. They exercise judgment before they take a life.