Essentialism vs Existentialism

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Essentialism vs Existentialism

Postby Alpha+Omega » Tue Jun 09, 2009 6:03 pm

'An essence characterizes a substance or a form, in the sense of the Forms or Ideas in Platonic idealism. It is permanent, unalterable, and eternal; and present in every possible world. Classical humanism has an essentialist conception of the human being, which means that it believes in an eternal and unchangeable human nature. This viewpoint has been criticized by Marx, Nietzsche, Sartre, and many modern and existential thinkers.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essentialism

What gives so many moderns (especially 'westerns') the arrogance to sneeringly scorn essentialism?

Are they hoping it will just quietly crawl away and die, for some 'unknown' reason?
From the ashes a fire shall be woken, a light from the shadows shall spring; renewed shall be the blade that was broken, the crownless again shall be king.

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I will not fail nor falter, I shall succeed.

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... when man feels the indwelling spirit, he is in no need of arguments for its existence; but for those who are deprived of the bounty of the spirit, it is necessary to establish external arguments.
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Re: Essentialism vs Existentialism

Postby Diekon » Tue Jun 09, 2009 6:28 pm

Alpha+Omega wrote:What gives so many moderns (especially 'westerns') the arrogance to sneeringly scorn essentialism?


Because essentialism doesn't make sense, not even a little.
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Re: Essentialism vs Existentialism

Postby uglypeoplefucking » Tue Jun 09, 2009 6:30 pm

Alpha+Omega wrote:What gives so many moderns (especially 'westerns') the arrogance to sneeringly scorn essentialism?


Primarily the fact that it's wrong

Are they hoping it will just quietly crawl away and die, for some 'unknown' reason?


i can't speak for anyone else, but i don't have any hopes for it one way or the other - i just find it ridiculous
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Re: Essentialism vs Existentialism

Postby Alpha+Omega » Tue Jun 09, 2009 6:35 pm

Diekon wrote:
Alpha+Omega wrote:What gives so many moderns (especially 'westerns') the arrogance to sneeringly scorn essentialism?


Because essentialism doesn't make sense, not even a little.


OK.

Makes perfect sense to me.
From the ashes a fire shall be woken, a light from the shadows shall spring; renewed shall be the blade that was broken, the crownless again shall be king.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpjnzxtZ ... re=related

I will not fail nor falter, I shall succeed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9KnuJZkBjg&NR=1

... when man feels the indwelling spirit, he is in no need of arguments for its existence; but for those who are deprived of the bounty of the spirit, it is necessary to establish external arguments.
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Re: Essentialism vs Existentialism

Postby Alpha+Omega » Tue Jun 09, 2009 6:36 pm

uglypeoplefucking wrote:
Alpha+Omega wrote:What gives so many moderns (especially 'westerns') the arrogance to sneeringly scorn essentialism?


Primarily the fact that it's wrong

Are they hoping it will just quietly crawl away and die, for some 'unknown' reason?


i can't speak for anyone else, but i don't have any hopes for it one way or the other - i just find it ridiculous


'Wrong' is quite a bold statement.

What makes you say that?

'Ridiculous' sounded very sneering to me, correct me if I'm wrong.
From the ashes a fire shall be woken, a light from the shadows shall spring; renewed shall be the blade that was broken, the crownless again shall be king.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpjnzxtZ ... re=related

I will not fail nor falter, I shall succeed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9KnuJZkBjg&NR=1

... when man feels the indwelling spirit, he is in no need of arguments for its existence; but for those who are deprived of the bounty of the spirit, it is necessary to establish external arguments.
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Re: Essentialism vs Existentialism

Postby Diekon » Tue Jun 09, 2009 6:40 pm

Alpha+Omega wrote:
Diekon wrote:
Alpha+Omega wrote:What gives so many moderns (especially 'westerns') the arrogance to sneeringly scorn essentialism?


Because essentialism doesn't make sense, not even a little.


OK.

Makes perfect sense to me.


Having read some of your posts... I bet it does.
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Re: Essentialism vs Existentialism

Postby Alpha+Omega » Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:06 pm

Diekon wrote:
Having read some of your posts... I bet it does.


Alrighty then, time to escape the shadows Cave Master.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nh2iyPmucFk
From the ashes a fire shall be woken, a light from the shadows shall spring; renewed shall be the blade that was broken, the crownless again shall be king.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpjnzxtZ ... re=related

I will not fail nor falter, I shall succeed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9KnuJZkBjg&NR=1

... when man feels the indwelling spirit, he is in no need of arguments for its existence; but for those who are deprived of the bounty of the spirit, it is necessary to establish external arguments.
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Re: Essentialism vs Existentialism

Postby Diekon » Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:23 pm

Alpha+Omega wrote:
Alrighty then, time to escape the shadows Cave Master.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nh2iyPmucFk


Plato got it backward.

What do you expect, that I just believe you or Plato on your word?

If you want to present your case, go ahead.
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Re: Essentialism vs Existentialism

Postby Alpha+Omega » Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:25 pm

Diekon wrote:
Alpha+Omega wrote:
Alrighty then, time to escape the shadows Cave Master.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nh2iyPmucFk


Plato got it backward.

What do you expect, that I just believe you or Plato on your word?

If you want to present your case, go ahead.


My case is that Plato is vaild AND sound.

Your turn.
From the ashes a fire shall be woken, a light from the shadows shall spring; renewed shall be the blade that was broken, the crownless again shall be king.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpjnzxtZ ... re=related

I will not fail nor falter, I shall succeed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9KnuJZkBjg&NR=1

... when man feels the indwelling spirit, he is in no need of arguments for its existence; but for those who are deprived of the bounty of the spirit, it is necessary to establish external arguments.
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Re: Essentialism vs Existentialism

Postby uglypeoplefucking » Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:43 pm

Alpha+Omega wrote:
'Wrong' is quite a bold statement.

What makes you say that?


it puts the universal cart before the universal horse

'Ridiculous' sounded very sneering to me, correct me if I'm wrong.


no, you're right, it's meant to recall the sort of sneering i detect behind your "God is too quick for philosophy" and "Nietzsche is a chimp" threads ...
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Re: Essentialism vs Existentialism

Postby Alpha+Omega » Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:56 pm

uglypeoplefucking wrote:
Alpha+Omega wrote:
'Wrong' is quite a bold statement.

What makes you say that?


it puts the universal cart before the universal horse

'Ridiculous' sounded very sneering to me, correct me if I'm wrong.


no, you're right, it's meant to recall the sort of sneering i detect behind your "God is too quick for philosophy" and "Nietzsche is a chimp" threads ...


:o

There was a Cart and Horse?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?
From the ashes a fire shall be woken, a light from the shadows shall spring; renewed shall be the blade that was broken, the crownless again shall be king.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpjnzxtZ ... re=related

I will not fail nor falter, I shall succeed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9KnuJZkBjg&NR=1

... when man feels the indwelling spirit, he is in no need of arguments for its existence; but for those who are deprived of the bounty of the spirit, it is necessary to establish external arguments.
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Re: Essentialism vs Existentialism

Postby uglypeoplefucking » Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:17 pm

Yeah, one was painted red, the other was made of wood.
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Re: Essentialism vs Existentialism

Postby Alpha+Omega » Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:19 pm

Was there a chicken and an egg too?
From the ashes a fire shall be woken, a light from the shadows shall spring; renewed shall be the blade that was broken, the crownless again shall be king.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpjnzxtZ ... re=related

I will not fail nor falter, I shall succeed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9KnuJZkBjg&NR=1

... when man feels the indwelling spirit, he is in no need of arguments for its existence; but for those who are deprived of the bounty of the spirit, it is necessary to establish external arguments.
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Re: Essentialism vs Existentialism

Postby uglypeoplefucking » Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:23 pm

they were both in the cart that got put before the horse
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Re: Essentialism vs Existentialism

Postby gib » Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:36 pm

2 things - 1) 'essence' as you define it is unobservable, giving people the right to doubt its existence, and 2) we seem to live in a universe of change - nothing stays the same - and so an unchanging, permanent fixture imbedded in everything seems unlikely.

That's not to say I don't believe in essences myself, but I'd go with a different definition: that which things ultimately are.
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Re: Essentialism vs Existentialism

Postby Alpha+Omega » Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:40 pm

they were both in the cart that got put before the horse]


I will at this point, point out the futility of identifying the first case of a circular cause and consequence, in the form of the horse and cart causality dilemma commonly stated as:

Which came first, horse that can't come without cart, or cart that can't come without horse?
From the ashes a fire shall be woken, a light from the shadows shall spring; renewed shall be the blade that was broken, the crownless again shall be king.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpjnzxtZ ... re=related

I will not fail nor falter, I shall succeed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9KnuJZkBjg&NR=1

... when man feels the indwelling spirit, he is in no need of arguments for its existence; but for those who are deprived of the bounty of the spirit, it is necessary to establish external arguments.
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Re: Essentialism vs Existentialism

Postby Alpha+Omega » Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:43 pm

gib wrote:2 things - 1) 'essence' as you define it is unobservable, giving people the right to doubt its existence, and 2) we seem to live in a universe of change - nothing stays the same - and so an unchanging, permanent fixture imbedded in everything seems unlikely.

That's not to say I don't believe in essences myself, but I'd go with a different definition: that which things ultimately are.


1) The proof is in the pudding. Essence is obvious. Life, consciousness, truth...
2) How does this refute the essences you believe in?
From the ashes a fire shall be woken, a light from the shadows shall spring; renewed shall be the blade that was broken, the crownless again shall be king.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpjnzxtZ ... re=related

I will not fail nor falter, I shall succeed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9KnuJZkBjg&NR=1

... when man feels the indwelling spirit, he is in no need of arguments for its existence; but for those who are deprived of the bounty of the spirit, it is necessary to establish external arguments.
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Re: Essentialism vs Existentialism

Postby uglypeoplefucking » Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:55 pm

Alpha+Omega wrote:I will at this point, point out the futility of identifying the first case of a circular cause and consequence, in the form of the horse and cart causality dilemma commonly stated as:

Which came first, horse that can't come without cart, or cart that can't come without horse?



You're welcome to point that out - but it doesn't have much bearing on anything - since cart before horse is just a manner of speaking, and essence and existence are no more parts of a circular cause and consequence than sculpture and sculptor. Essence is abstraction - it is preceded by what exists.
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Re: Essentialism vs Existentialism

Postby gib » Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:07 pm

Alpha+Omega wrote:1) The proof is in the pudding. Essence is obvious. Life, consciousness, truth...


Not sure how this proves anything.

Alpha+Omega wrote:2) How does this refute the essences you believe in?


Here's how you defined essence: "'An essence characterizes a substance or a form, in the sense of the Forms or Ideas in Platonic idealism. It is permanent, unalterable, and eternal;"

For me, there is nothing necessarily permanent, unalterable, or eternal about essences. There can be such a thing as a tree-as-it-ultimately-is without it being permanent, unalterable, or eternal.
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Re: Essentialism vs Existentialism

Postby Alpha+Omega » Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:07 pm

uglypeoplefucking wrote:
1. Essence and existence are no more parts of a circular cause and consequence than sculpture and sculptor. Essence is abstraction - 3. it is preceded by what exists.


1. Assumption.
2. 'Abstraction' is every bit as real as 10110011101.
3. Abstraction exists, essence exists. There is nothing that doesn't exist.
From the ashes a fire shall be woken, a light from the shadows shall spring; renewed shall be the blade that was broken, the crownless again shall be king.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpjnzxtZ ... re=related

I will not fail nor falter, I shall succeed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9KnuJZkBjg&NR=1

... when man feels the indwelling spirit, he is in no need of arguments for its existence; but for those who are deprived of the bounty of the spirit, it is necessary to establish external arguments.
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Re: Essentialism vs Existentialism

Postby Alpha+Omega » Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:13 pm

gib wrote:
Alpha+Omega wrote:1) The proof is in the pudding. Essence is obvious. Life, consciousness, truth...


A. Not sure how this proves anything.

Alpha+Omega wrote:2) How does this refute the essences you believe in?


Here's how you defined essence: "'An essence characterizes a substance or a form, in the sense of the Forms or Ideas in Platonic idealism. It is permanent, unalterable, and eternal;"

B. For me, there is nothing necessarily permanent, unalterable, or eternal about essences. There can be such a thing as a tree-as-it-ultimately-is without it being permanent, unalterable, or eternal.


A. OK well you can always come back later when you understand me.
B. You are entitled to your opinion. However as this is a philosophy board I will offer an alternative: if something exists it is eternal because non-existence doesn't exist, things cannot just jump onto the non-existence plane at will. Energy is always conserved.
From the ashes a fire shall be woken, a light from the shadows shall spring; renewed shall be the blade that was broken, the crownless again shall be king.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpjnzxtZ ... re=related

I will not fail nor falter, I shall succeed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9KnuJZkBjg&NR=1

... when man feels the indwelling spirit, he is in no need of arguments for its existence; but for those who are deprived of the bounty of the spirit, it is necessary to establish external arguments.
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Re: Essentialism vs Existentialism

Postby gib » Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:20 pm

Alpha+Omega wrote:B. You are entitled to your opinion. However as this is a philosophy board I will offer an alternative: if something exists it is eternal because non-existence doesn't exist, things cannot just jump onto the non-existence plane at will. Energy is always conserved.


The law of conservation of energy states that energy cannot be created or destroyed - it can only change form. It's the changing of form that challenges you.
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Re: Essentialism vs Existentialism

Postby uglypeoplefucking » Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:23 pm

Alpha+Omega wrote:Assumption.


reasoned observation

'Abstraction' is every bit as real as 10110011101.


sure it is, but reality doesn't order itself according to 10110011101, 10110011101 orders itself according to reality

Abstraction exists, essence exists. There is nothing that doesn't exist.


but there is that which is neither essence nor abstraction - if existence, on the other hand, is everything, then you tell me which is likely to have come first

gotta go -b back later
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Re: Essentialism vs Existentialism

Postby Alpha+Omega » Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:24 pm

gib wrote:
Alpha+Omega wrote:B. You are entitled to your opinion. However as this is a philosophy board I will offer an alternative: if something exists it is eternal because non-existence doesn't exist, things cannot just jump onto the non-existence plane at will. Energy is always conserved.


The law of conservation of energy states that energy cannot be created or destroyed - it can only change form. It's the changing of form that challenges you.


Material 'forms' of energy are not Plato's forms.

... sorry...

... I'm trying not laugh...

Someone needs to write an etiquette handbook.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

:lol:
From the ashes a fire shall be woken, a light from the shadows shall spring; renewed shall be the blade that was broken, the crownless again shall be king.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpjnzxtZ ... re=related

I will not fail nor falter, I shall succeed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9KnuJZkBjg&NR=1

... when man feels the indwelling spirit, he is in no need of arguments for its existence; but for those who are deprived of the bounty of the spirit, it is necessary to establish external arguments.
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Re: Essentialism vs Existentialism

Postby Alpha+Omega » Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:32 pm

uglypeoplefucking wrote:
Alpha+Omega wrote:Assumption.


1. reasoned observation

'Abstraction' is every bit as real as 10110011101.


2. sure it is, but reality doesn't order itself according to 10110011101, 10110011101 orders itself according to reality

Abstraction exists, essence exists. There is nothing that doesn't exist.


3. but there is that which is neither essence nor abstraction - if existence, on the other hand, is everything, then you tell me which is likely to have come first

gotta go -b back later


1. Based on what your assumptions of what 'reason' are.
2. Assumption.
3. What and from which perspective? The only thing that could 'come first' is existence, which would mean both came first.
From the ashes a fire shall be woken, a light from the shadows shall spring; renewed shall be the blade that was broken, the crownless again shall be king.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpjnzxtZ ... re=related

I will not fail nor falter, I shall succeed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9KnuJZkBjg&NR=1

... when man feels the indwelling spirit, he is in no need of arguments for its existence; but for those who are deprived of the bounty of the spirit, it is necessary to establish external arguments.
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