Desire based thinking

[Nah]

Continued from the thread:
Overhauling Philosophy (and/or our thinking, in general)
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=169073


Other threads with similar information:

Fixation => Contradiction => Question => Answer => Fixation
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=166524

How our thought (may) evolve
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=166613




Other than the problem shown in the first thread, there is a fundamental problem with our thought. It is the lack of satisfaction.

Our thought is projected and lead by different desires. But I think the desire for the certainty, something absolute, absolutely correct/right answer is the main force behind our logical thought (if we are rational enough).
These desires pushed us into more and more logical/rational thinking from the age of myth/legend into that of theology/alchemy and now more or less of science/reason. However, we know that we will never reach absolute knowledge, absolutely correct answer that is free of any limitation/condition, nor logical absolute certainty.

It means we would not satisfy our desires with the current method. And without satisfaction, we would be motivated (or rather pushed/projected) to think further but never obtaining satisfaction, again and again.


So, instead of simply thinking something that interests/captivate us, we can study what and how we tend to think, so that we can map what we are really looking for as an answer, knowledge, etc. And then, by back tracing the desired end results, we can guess frustration/fear that might have caused our desires.

In other words, instead of being projected and forced to think (by sub/unconscious desires), we would place our own thinking process under the light of our awareness, to locate the vector, the pointer to the desired things, and to locate the root of the vector/pointing-arrow.

And the objective of the operation is to satisfy the desires, or absorb/dissipate the cause of the desires (in form of frustration/fear/etc).



Since this is based on the quality of the observation done with our awareness, the quality of the awareness is highly important. So, I'll explain some method that would help us to enhance the density of the awareness.

However, as this method (or the perspective this method) is based on our desires and especially the desire of the logical mind for something absolute.
Unless this desire is stronger than other desires, we would settle for something less than absolute with our desire for the absolute unsatisfied.



Along with the awareness, we would need to work on in the area of logical thinking, and also in clearing the emotional memory/data-bank. Although playing with the emotion may seem to be unrelated, it is very important because our emotion can mess up our though unless it's well trained/dressed.



We can think of our awareness/mind to have thee arts: physical/sensual part, emotional part, and logical part. Each part has its own tendencies/desires. And it can help us a lot if we identify/think the desire of each part, separately, rather than vaguely thinking about generic desire. Similarly, identifying and separating logical thought from emotional feeling IS very important. This is especially so among some (ONLY SOME) females and people with emotional tendency. Presenting one's emotion as if it's something reasonable/logic is very common behavior, indeed. But it doesn't help us much, in any way. It only help one's (skewed) self-image, very slightly, as though it's better because it seems logically correct (although it's silly and absurd from logical POV).



Next, I'll write about specific/detailed methods.

[Nah]

Some very basic concepts/understanding of geometrical mapping is important in"desire based thinking".

We do know some of our own desires. But many desires are invisible/hidden in subconscious region.

To know more about our desires and subconscious region, we will use different methods. One of the method is observing the pattern of our action and thought in conscious area, noting/logging them, then finally trying to understand the direction/vector of each element noted so that we can make a sort of "weather chart" of our actions and thought.
It is pretty similar to note the wind direction and force at different locations to map/guess larger attracting/repelling forces otherwise invisible.

When it's done well, we will know what we really want. I mean, we will know what kind of desires have greater impact on everyday actions and thoughts.

This method will reveal principle factors/interests around which we gravitate/orbit.

Knowing our own main interest has the effect of weeding out things that isn't really important for us, and thus refining, combining, and enhancing our primal desires. This will eliminate the waste of energy, and especially the wasted awareness scattered over many secondary and relatively unimportant attractions. In turn, concentrated and denser awareness with refined desire will let us focus on what we really want, and allowing the desire to be satisfied either by obtaining what we want or by knowing that it's totally impossible with the all the might/effort we have used.
Although it may seem unlikely, we can satisfy our desire even when we do not obtain desired result if we know have have done everything for it. It's not the satisfaction of attaining the objective, but the satisfaction from making "total effort" without reserve.


Now, after dealing about the positive side of the desire, let's see the negative side of the desire, namely the fear.

When we do something. think about something, there are often both positive and negative motivation working behind. If we think about an arrow, the pointed side is the desire and the end is the fear, so to say. Of course, this is a simplified view, and there are different grades/shades.

So, we would like to know about many many arrows, big one, small one, each pointing to different things.

Usually, seeking something "positive" is a direct result of running away from something "negative.

For example, someone seeking to be rich tends to be afraid of being poor. Someone seeking "power" is afraid of being powerless, and so on.
Again, it's a simplified view, but human being can be pretty simple when analyzed at basic elemental level.

To do all these, I'd suggest taking note, making lists of things we like and dislike (and/or positive and negative things) in physical/sensory area, emotional things, and intellectual/logical area. Think/feel about the possible relations/connections among them. Make sketches/charts of how our sensations/feelings/thoughts revolve.

And then, do the same for our parent, school, community, culture, etc that influenced us.

This will show the desires/fear we inherited from others.

Also, we can chart historical evolution of our desires/fears, and we may see certain tendencies/patterns.

It is highly IMPORTANT to note and get used to our own "denial behaviors".
Most of us (if not all of us) have at least some denial behavior patterns that will manifest subconsciously/automatically when we encounter things we don't want to face.

It can be as simple as "thinking about something else", such as sex, sports, intellectual bullshit, and so on, or more physical behavior such as artificial/unnatural yawning, taking food, sleeping, listening to music, and so on.
Knowing our own denial pattern is crucial. When we know them well, they will become the sign post for something we didn't want to face, and thus hidden in subconscious area, most probably.

This thread shows some of these denial behaviors.
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=166770


Catching our own tail, the tail of our own silliness, can be fun.
We can entertain ourselves with these for long time, and it doesn't cost anything, other than paper/sketch-book and pen. And this can prepare oneself to have tough stomach that will let us face things we fear/disgust most, eventually.

But it can be a long road, so it's better to take it easy and proceed slowly.

Since this will show things we don't like to see about ourselves, people who need to maintain (false) self-esteem/image should not do it.
(I'm saying this for people who love "positive" things.)

Although I'd recommend doing this to anyone, it's more or less for "mature" person, who has tasted both "positives" and "negatives" to some degree and who is rational enough.
I'm 10000000000000000000% sure that religious believers, someone who thinks god/ideology/science/whatever offers "ultimate truth" can't understand what I'm saying and wont be able to do this. We've got to be flexible and reasonable to adopt and compare multiple perspectives. And each of these arrows is a perspective we need to take, consciously, to examine its nature.

[Nah]

The solution, although simple in its essence, isn't very easy. This is because the connection/fixation tendency of ours seems to be very deeply rooted, and the pigeon-hole thinking and massive overrating tendency might be coming directly from the nature of our awareness.

It means, we need to learn about our tendencies and to become highly aware of how we operate if we are to do reverse engineering of ourselves, hacking and cracking of our logical and emotional mess, and drastic clean up and re-organization of both conscious and subconscious connective/fixation landscape.

I know it's nothing new that someone suggesting starting (partially) from the scratch. But I'm suggesting to change the way we think, to the point lots of what we thought great/normal would seem to be rather silly and primitive, including the work of thinkers and philosophers, religions and even mystics.

Having said that, I'm not saying we all should think differently. I don't think majority of people would be able to think differently, to begin with. And even if all of us could, I think it's a matter of personal preference that any of us can think/see anything in any way.
So, I'm saying that it's better to change the way we think ONLY IF you prefer to think differently.
Also, I'm not saying that their is objectively absolutely better way to think. I'm saying that the pigeon-hole thinking has the inherent limitation and secondary effect, and there is another way to think that has less limitation and problem.



Now, it's time for more of the actual methodology for reverse engineering ourselves and hack the system to make it run differently.

It is based on the observation that we are highly robotic and not so conscious animal and that mastering the focus and the density of awareness is essential in gathering the information about ourselves and clean and replace lots of embedded data we use, consciously and/or sub/unconsciously.


First of all, recognizing our own habit is a very important basic step to become aware of what's happening in ourselves.
Any sub/unconscious habit of ours, physical or mental, can be used for enhancing our awareness.
Understanding how robotic and automatic we are is the first important bit of realization/impact we would have through this practice. Only those who deeply understand robotic nature of ourselves may have the possibility of gaining more freedom from the clockwork system.

To be realistic, most people fail at this point because they want to think of themselves as someone intelligent, having free will, and all other "positive esteem of self", which is nothing other than self aggrandizing delusions, ego-trip. However, there is nothing objectively wrong with living in these delusion, and it may even offer relative calm for their mind. So, again, it's the matter of personal preference/choice.

Recognizing our habit in progress in real time is an interesting experience. We may only notice once in 100 times when it kicks in. But if we enjoy observing a strange organic machine, ourselves, we can become better in this game. Observing others may also help, too, because it's generally easier to notice habits of others.

There is an important trick in learning this. It is to simply observe and don't try to stop or react to the habit, even if the habit is something we don't like, feel ashamed to death, etc. The habit will cease by its own accord when the awareness is poured upon it and the root desire is satisfied or relinquished.

We can think of our awareness as if it's a water for the plants. Our awareness has the quality to nurture things, although it may sound strange. If we continue to observe how our habits behave/change over the time, the effect of the awareness might be felt.
But don't expect any miracle cure, since it may happen if we desire too much, but usually resulting in the form of different self delusion.


By continuing to notice our habits, the rate of recognition would increase and also we would notice even in advance whereas we would have been noticing after habits had kicked in or even after they had ended.
At this stage (or even earlier), it's important to forget about this game and relax, time to time. If we get too involved in "self awareness", "self observation" type of activities, we can develop neurotic symptoms and tendencies. We can become too "self concerned" rather than "being aware", we can become mentally sick.
Although there is nothing wrong with being sick, and it might even give us better understanding about certain aspect of our psyche, it's not necessary nor always pleasant, either.
If you happen to become sick in this way, just keep worrying and stay sick, as long as you feel like. Don't trying to get cured can be the best remedy for many things.
However, if you experience the desire to get cured, be honest to your desire and try to get cured even it may mean you are making more mess. Premature interruption leaves us in frustration, and we will have it back again, whatever it is.


There are other practices you can "enjoy" to enhance the quality and density of awareness. Focusing practices is one of them. Some forms of meditation can help. Working in mission critical type of job require higher degree of awareness, naturally, and it may help. Unless we develop enough awareness, we may have big problem such as huge financial burden or causing injury and death to ourselves and others in these jobs. But any job can be done with more loving care and precision/efficiency/etc if we do it with higher degree of awareness and multiple point of view.


With the at least slightly increased degree of awareness, we may become aware of our thinking habits and pitfalls.
Also, it may allow us to observe how emotion pushes/pulls us into certain direction, in certain way, and how emotion compute and conclude.

Although our main concern in this thread is logical thinking, we wont be able to do it effectively unless we do understand the relation between emotion and logic, and unless we do manage to separate these.
To do this, we must posses strong desire to think logically and think well. And this desire is nothing other than the natural tendency of our logical mind to seek The Absolute, underneath. In other words, to desire the absolute is a good thing for thinking logically, but only if we are aware enough and we don't mix emotion and logic. Otherwise, we would start connecting/fixating something to the image/illusion of the absolute and start overrating/worshiping/idolizing it, just like any religion, ideology, movements, etc. So, we can think of using the fuel (the desire) in appropriate machine (logic and emotion) instead of burning it like a wild fire.

[Peachy Nietzsche]

Very good thread, I read the first post but I am very tired. I'll have to read the rest tomorrow!
I like your viewpoint that desire is something which needs to be cured - very enlightening

[Impenitent]

if only scientists could eliminate that section of the brain that drives desire...

harrison? harrison?

-Imp

[Peachy Nietzsche]

The solution, although simple in its essence, isn't very easy. This is because the connection/fixation tendency of ours seems to be very deeply rooted, and the pigeon-hole thinking and massive overrating tendency might be coming directly from the nature of our awareness.

It means, we need to learn about our tendencies and to become highly aware of how we operate if we are to do reverse engineering of ourselves, hacking and cracking of our logical and emotional mess, and drastic clean up and re-organization of both conscious and subconscious connective/fixation landscape.

I have been trying to do just this for quite some time (about 6 months).
I have found that rerouting the subconscious and unconscious desires which give direction to our conscious actions is not possible and only leads to anxiety.
Why? Because our mind does not function semantically - it works in a spectrum, a continuum, of various thoughts and attachments. Thinking that our conscious actions have a "root subconscious desire" is a drastic oversimplification of human thought pattern. It doesn't work - and it leads to neurosis.

All of our mental processing is delicate and intricate. As soon as we deny ourselves a suspected "subconscious desire", it essentially provokes a perpetual collapse of other mental processes and ultimately (if denial of subconscious desires continues) paralysis and a state of indecisiveness results. Think of it as a "domino effect" in the clockwork of our minds.

[Nah]

The solution, although simple in its essence, isn't very easy. This is because the connection/fixation tendency of ours seems to be very deeply rooted, and the pigeon-hole thinking and massive overrating tendency might be coming directly from the nature of our awareness.

It means, we need to learn about our tendencies and to become highly aware of how we operate if we are to do reverse engineering of ourselves, hacking and cracking of our logical and emotional mess, and drastic clean up and re-organization of both conscious and subconscious connective/fixation landscape.

I have been trying to do just this for quite some time (about 6 months).

6 months wouldn't be enough.
I started to clean up messy beliefs, systematically, when I was 14 after fully realizing the relative nature of logic. And it took about 2 years to clean beliefs in the surface layers.
But it took many more years and many different experiences to observe, learn, and satisfy/clean other facets of the mind/emotion/body.

I don't know what exactly you tried, but I don't think you knew what to do.

I have found that rerouting the subconscious and unconscious desires which give direction to our conscious actions is not possible and only leads to anxiety.

Well, in the "Trapping habits", I insisted not to touch the habits.
Also, one of the main point of this thread is "Desire based thinking".
It's to go back to the desire that fired our thought activity, to be honest about the desire and to satisfy it or to observe the negative sensation/feeling that caused the desire.
So, it's not about "rerouting the subconscious and unconscious desires", although it will have the effect of modifying subconscious landscape.

However, "anxiety" can be a good sign. Generally speaking, surfacing of negative sensation/feeling can be seen as a good sign, in this type of exercise.
Still, you need enough level of awareness to take the advantage of negative sensation/feeling. Usually, you will simply end up accumulating more chains of escapism.

Why? Because our mind does not function semantically - it works in a spectrum, a continuum, of various thoughts and attachments. Thinking that our conscious actions have a "root subconscious desire" is a drastic oversimplification of human thought pattern. It doesn't work - and it leads to neurosis.

I have explained why some neurosis situation happens. That's why I said to take it easy.

Reducing seemingly complex phenomena to simple structure is one of the desire of our mind. And really simple things can create pretty complex mechanism. For example. give me simple logic IC and enough time, and I can build complex computer system.
And I did simplify things to the awareness patterns, not just subconscious desire.

All of our mental processing is delicate and intricate.

When the awareness is fast enough (because of higher density), you can observe parts of these mental processing. And it's like seeing logic gates instead of CPU (or memory, whatever) chips, if you know computer hardware.
If you can't see, it means you are not aware/logical enough, most probably.

As soon as we deny ourselves a suspected "subconscious desire", it essentially provokes a perpetual collapse of other mental processes and ultimately (if denial of subconscious desires continues) paralysis and a state of indecisiveness results. Think of it as a "domino effect" in the clockwork of our minds.

Well, read again what I wrote, and maybe you can understand (this time) that I wasn't suggesting to deny our desires. On the contrary, I'm suggesting to satisfy our desires.

[Peachy Nietzsche]

6 months wouldn't be enough.
I started to clean up messy beliefs, systematically, when I was 14 after fully realizing the relative nature of logic. And it took about 2 years to clean beliefs in the surface layers.
But it took many more years and many different experiences to observe, learn, and satisfy/clean other facets of the mind/emotion/body.

I don't know what exactly you tried, but I don't think you knew what to do.

Yes, that's it. I am just a silly baffoon and you're a prodigy. It all seems so clear to me now.

I have found that rerouting the subconscious and unconscious desires which give direction to our conscious actions is not possible and only leads to anxiety.

Well, in the "Trapping habits", I insisted not to touch the habits.
Also, one of the main point of this thread is "Desire based thinking".
It's to go back to the desire that fired our thought activity, to be honest about the desire and to satisfy it or to observe the negative sensation/feeling that caused the desire.
So, it's not about "rerouting the subconscious and unconscious desires", although it will have the effect of modifying subconscious landscape.

However, "anxiety" can be a good sign. Generally speaking, surfacing of negative sensation/feeling can be seen as a good sign, in this type of exercise.
Still, you need enough level of awareness to take the advantage of negative sensation/feeling. Usually, you will simply end up accumulating more chains of escapism.

I think you have an incredibly simplified concept of your own mind. Through years of drug use for psycho-introspective purposes (coincidentally when I was 14 as well, the time I began realizing how simple and stupid everyone else was), I have developed for myself a keen metacognition; it is strong enough to the point where I can indicate which neurotransmitters are being released and which feelings/thoughts they correspond with. This isn't just a delusion, either; it has been verified by several psychoanalysts and psychiatrists.

I have explained why some neurosis situation happens. That's why I said to take it easy.

Reducing seemingly complex phenomena to simple structure is one of the desire of our mind. And really simple things can create pretty complex mechanism. For example. give me simple logic IC and enough time, and I can build complex computer system.
And I did simplify things to the awareness patterns, not just subconscious desire.

In your brain, different things are happening at different times in different locations giving rise to your conscious awareness. There are far more variables involved (mood, alertness, diet, time of day, to name a few) than one simple subconscious thought. At most, all you are doing is re-routing your response to a certain situation.

When the awareness is fast enough (because of higher density), you can observe parts of these mental processing. And it's like seeing logic gates instead of CPU (or memory, whatever) chips, if you know computer hardware.
If you can't see, it means you are not aware/logical enough, most probably.

I use amphetamine every day (the molecule is in my avatar) for the metacognition, self-awareness, and introspection it gives me. I do not doubt the possibility of mapping out subconscious desires - but realize that because that subconscious desire has existed for so long, other hidden unconscious desires have intertwined with it - If you truly 'remove' that subconscious desire, you would experience such a shit-storm of catatonia and confusion that you would be begging for sedation in the psyche ward.

Well, read again what I wrote, and maybe you can understand (this time) that I wasn't suggesting to deny our desires. On the contrary, I'm suggesting to satisfy our desires.

You said right within this very post that you have been "cleaning up messy beliefs".
There is nothing wrong with this. But as soon as you mentioned subconscious and unconscious desires, that is where the problem occurred. At most you have presented the illusion for yourself that you are actually weeding out unnecessary sub/unconscious desires.

[Nah]

Yes, that's it. I am just a silly baffoon and you're a prodigy. It all seems so clear to me now.

Let's see how clear it is.

Well, in the "Trapping habits", I insisted not to touch the habits.
Also, one of the main point of this thread is "Desire based thinking".
It's to go back to the desire that fired our thought activity, to be honest about the desire and to satisfy it or to observe the negative sensation/feeling that caused the desire.
So, it's not about "rerouting the subconscious and unconscious desires", although it will have the effect of modifying subconscious landscape.

However, "anxiety" can be a good sign. Generally speaking, surfacing of negative sensation/feeling can be seen as a good sign, in this type of exercise.
Still, you need enough level of awareness to take the advantage of negative sensation/feeling. Usually, you will simply end up accumulating more chains of escapism.

I think you have an incredibly simplified concept of your own mind. Through years of drug use for psycho-introspective purposes (coincidentally when I was 14 as well, the time I began realizing how simple and stupid everyone else was), I have developed for myself a keen metacognition; it is strong enough to the point where I can indicate which neurotransmitters are being released and which feelings/thoughts they correspond with. This isn't just a delusion, either; it has been verified by several psychoanalysts and psychiatrists.

I've never used drugs, so I don't know how they are affecting you.
If you think you have so keen meta-cognition, maybe you can explain how desires arise in detail, for example, instead of simply telling me the I'm oversimplifying without presenting how you can say it.

In your brain, different things are happening at different times in different locations giving rise to your conscious awareness. There are far more variables involved (mood, alertness, diet, time of day, to name a few) than one simple subconscious thought. At most, all you are doing is re-routing your response to a certain situation.

Again, you missed what I said.
Re-routing may occur, but as result.

First thing to do in this "desire based thinking" is to become more aware and logical, so that you can observe and then analyze.

When the awareness is fast enough (because of higher density), you can observe parts of these mental processing. And it's like seeing logic gates instead of CPU (or memory, whatever) chips, if you know computer hardware.
If you can't see, it means you are not aware/logical enough, most probably.

I use amphetamine every day (the molecule is in my avatar) for the metacognition, self-awareness, and introspection it gives me. I do not doubt the possibility of mapping out subconscious desires - but realize that because that subconscious desire has existed for so long, other hidden unconscious desires have intertwined with it - If you truly 'remove' that subconscious desire, you would experience such a shit-storm of catatonia and confusion that you would be begging for sedation in the psyche ward.

As I've told you, I'm not talking about "removing" desires.
Can you understand that desire goes away when it's satisfied?

I now know that you are heavily depending on the drug, and maybe you are addicted, as well. And in the addiction type of desire, there might be no end. But even in the desire for addictive drug, they don't manifest the "thirst" all the time. They do subside when you get the dose, for a while.

And for many desires, it can be "one time" thing. You need to satisfy them just once, for them to be gone. Can you understand this?


As far as mental confusion is concerned, I rarely had panic, in my life. When I had one, it made me even more aware and I became calmer in the panic to observe what was happening. This goes for stress and pain, too.
I don't really remember being very confused for long period. Maybe you should explain in detail what you went through in your confusion, and I can learn about confused state of yours.

Well, read again what I wrote, and maybe you can understand (this time) that I wasn't suggesting to deny our desires. On the contrary, I'm suggesting to satisfy our desires.

You said right within this very post that you have been "cleaning up messy beliefs".

Beliefs can create contradiction/frustration and cause some desire to happen.
But again, I'm talking about cleaning the data and not the desire. Can you see the difference?

There is nothing wrong with this. But as soon as you mentioned subconscious and unconscious desires, that is where the problem occurred. At most you have presented the illusion for yourself that you are actually weeding out unnecessary sub/unconscious desires.

It seems you may have a bit of mental blocking around the topic of sub/unconscious desire. Explain why they seem so complicated and problematic for you.

[Peachy Nietzsche]

Desires do not disappear when they are satisfied, where did you come up with that?

[Nah]

Desires do not disappear when they are satisfied, where did you come up with that?

Can you see that you are not providing any theory nor example to support what you are saying?

Now, do you need to eat/drink/sex/shit constantly?
One you are done with it, you don't have the desire, at least for a while, do you?

What are the desire(s) you are talking about?
Explain and clarify, please. You can do it since you are supposed to have "meta-cognition".

[Peachy Nietzsche]

Desires do not disappear when they are satisfied, where did you come up with that?

Can you see that you are not providing any theory nor example to support what you are saying?

Now, do you need to eat/drink/sex/shit constantly?
One you are done with it, you don't have the desire, at least for a while, do you?

What are the desire(s) you are talking about?
Explain and clarify, please. You can do it since you are supposed to have "meta-cognition".

so you can agree satisfaction is only temporary?

[Nah]

Yes. BOTH desires AND satisfactions are temporary.
As long as we live, there will be desires manifesting, time to time.

However, certain types of desires aren't repetitive.
For example, I liked flying and diving, a lot.
I did both a lot. But know, I don;t have desire for flying nor diving.
I guess I've done enough of them, being a professional pilot and also teaching how to fly, and going different places to do different dives with and without tank. Also, I think something that was prompting me to like 3D movement is gone.

Also, I like to travel, and I did a lot. I traveled on foot, on bicycle, by car, by plane, on sailboat, and so on. But now, I don;t have any desire to travel.

I do have time and money to do lots of things, but I don't have desires I had when I was young mostly because I did enough of them and I'm satisfied in these area.

And the list of desires once I had but not now continues, for eating out, writing software, having/modifying gadget, and so on.

So, some of our desires (and interests) can be gone for good.
The key for the satisfaction seems to be in the intensity and attention given to each desire. When I did these, I was really into them and I did wholeheartedly and enjoyed a lot.

Now, it's your turn to explain (if you can) what I've asked you.
Show me what you can do (with the help of drug).

[Peachy Nietzsche]

Show me what you can do (with the help of drug).

You can step outside of your normal perspective and view everything around you with a different point of view.

[helptheherd]

everything one does is for the purpose of learning- there is absolutely nothing that one can do without the purpose of learning- even suicide up until the point of death is in purpose for learning. this is also the same as loving yourself. desire is existence itself- if one wants to figure out which desires to keep and which desires to get rid of God is the only one that can help- trying to figure it out without the help of God (selfless love) would be useless and only lead to more suffering.

[Nah]

Show me what you can do (with the help of drug).

You can step outside of your normal perspective and view everything around you with a different point of view.

Be more specific, with details, please.
Up to now, you are not providing any supporting information for your claim.
You aren't talking logically, either. I mean, you are just declaring things without much theory nor data.

If you are unable, somehow, you can try other methods of description/explanation/indication.
Or you can simply forget about this. As you wish.

[Nah]

everything one does is for the purpose of learning- there is absolutely nothing that one can do without the purpose of learning- even suicide up until the point of death is in purpose for learning. this is also the same as loving yourself. desire is existence itself- if one wants to figure out which desires to keep and which desires to get rid of God is the only one that can help- trying to figure it out without the help of God (selfless love) would be useless and only lead to more suffering.

Let's see if you can actually do what you preach.

Go to read the OP of this thread, and learn that your post matches pretty well to the pigeon-hole thinking.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=169073

When you have full understanding of why your post is so illogical, you can come back here to learn how to think differently.

Good luck and may your God bless you.

[Peachy Nietzsche]

Be more specific, with details, please.

In order to gain more of an understanding about your own mind, it is beneficial to temporarily alter your normal neurochemical levels to learn through first-hand experience what certain states of mind are like with different neuronal pathways on/off/altered.

Otherwise, how could you have an accurate understanding of the mechanics of desire if you have not tampered with the root chemicals which cause desire and satisfaction?

Say for example that you wanted to be a chef, but you have spent your entire life rarely eating anything besides peanut-butter and jelly sandwhiches. So, you begin trying new and exotic food to broaden your knowledge of foods through first-hand experience, making you a better chef.

Up to now, you are not providing any supporting information for your claim.

If you are going to make such an accusation, then you'd better take the time to provide me with a specific example of when I didn't provide any supporting information. As far as I see it, if I was missing any "supporting information" then I just assumed it was common sense. So please, show me where you couldn't understand what I was saying.

You aren't talking logically, either. I mean, you are just declaring things without much theory nor data.

How so? Simply because you do not understand it, you think it isn't logical.
Aren't you also just declaring things without much data?

If you insist diving into the technicalities of our debate simply because you don't like being wrong, then may I point out that
'You are just declaring things without much theory' doesn't make grammatical sense and is poorly worded anyways. If what you meant was "There is no theory supporting what you are declaring", then I would have to say you're wrong. It seems to me that you are falling victim to the very things you are criticizing. You aren't really counter-refuting anything that I have said, and instead are just saying "No, you are wrong. And you use bad logic, too."

So before you begin to tell people that they are not providing supporting evidence, maybe you should check to make sure that you are providing supporting evidence yourself.

Furthermore, every piece of "counter-evidence" you provided (i.e. "you are not providing any supporting information for your claim" or "you aren't talking logically") could be used as counter-evidence in virtually any debate imaginable, and therefore, they have no credibility as valid counter-evidence.

Once we remove the argumentative fallacies, your post is reduced to:
"Be more specific, with details, please. Try other methods of description/explanation/indication"
basically indicating that you couldn't understand what I was saying, and felt it necessary to add 3X the amount of useful text as false accusations; most likely done in some attempt to convince yourself that you are smart.

[Peachy Nietzsche]

Perhaps I should illustrate to you the structure of a good debate:

First of all, you should make a claim which either refutes what someone else says, supports what someone else says, or offering your own opinion on the matter. Then, you should provide information backing your claim.

-Claim
- Piece of evidence supporting claim
- Piece of evidence supporting claim
- Piece of evidence supporting claim

Example:

I do not think that using drugs would be beneficial for gaining an understanding of how the mind works (Claim). It seems common knowledge that drugs damage the brain (supporting evidence 1), and using them would actually lower a person's understanding of how the mind works (supporting evidence 2). Some drugs are also neurotoxic (supporting evidence 3).

- This would have been a valid rebuttal.

Now, I'll pick apart and analyze one of the paragraphs of my argument in this thread.

(The unspoken claim was to refute what you had claimed, which was "If you can't see, it means you are not aware/logical enough, most probably." This claim was left unspoken, because it was left to your assumption to assume that is what I was refuting. )
I use amphetamine every day (the molecule is in my avatar) for the metacognition, self-awareness, and introspection it gives me (supporting evidence 1). I do not doubt the possibility of mapping out subconscious desires - but realize that because that subconscious desire has existed for so long (supporting evidence 2), other hidden unconscious desires have intertwined with it (supporting evidence 3) - If you truly 'remove' that subconscious desire, you would experience such a shit-storm of catatonia and confusion that you would be begging for sedation in the psyche ward (supporting evidence 4).

Sometimes it becomes necessary to provide a second tier of supporting evidence for pieces of supporting evidence. However, if the opposing debater does not understand a particular piece of counter-evidence, then it would be best for that opposing debater to ask the other opposing debater to elaborate while citing the specific example that he/she did not understand. This is best done without claiming that the opponent is illogical, especially if you did not cite any specific example of where you thought it was illogical, and explain why you thought it was illogical.

If I we were to provide supporting evidence for the supporting evidence, and possibly even provide supporting evidence for the supporting evidence of the supporting evidence, then it would quickly accumulate a wall of text that no one would want to read. I would also risk losing the attention of my opposing debater, and the opposing debater might just end up resorting to simple argumentative tools such as "No. You're wrong. You're illogical."

[Nah]

Be more specific, with details, please.

In order to gain more of an understanding about your own mind, it is beneficial to temporarily alter your normal neurochemical levels to learn through first-hand experience what certain states of mind are like with different neuronal pathways on/off/altered.

Otherwise, how could you have an accurate understanding of the mechanics of desire if you have not tampered with the root chemicals which cause desire and satisfaction?

Are you saying that desires and satisfactions are all chemical based?
And how about the causes of these chemical changes?

What is the "accurate understanding of the mechanics of desire" according to you?

Please explain in detail if you can.

Say for example that you wanted to be a chef, but you have spent your entire life rarely eating anything besides peanut-butter and jelly sandwhiches. So, you begin trying new and exotic food to broaden your knowledge of foods through first-hand experience, making you a better chef.

If you have the desire to be certain type of chef, you may want to do what you think is good to become one.
Now, how a person would reason and choose what to do is arbitrary.

For example, to become a pilot, you have to follow specific course with certified instructor and pass some tests, normally, in many countries.
However, you can choose to do it differently (with possible consequences), too.
There is no absolute rule in how to do something.

Up to now, you are not providing any supporting information for your claim.

If you are going to make such an accusation, then you'd better take the time to provide me with a specific example of when I didn't provide any supporting information. As far as I see it, if I was missing any "supporting information" then I just assumed it was common sense. So please, show me where you couldn't understand what I was saying.

Oh, I guess you can't read what you wrote. I'll help you to remember.

Desires do not disappear when they are satisfied, where did you come up with that?

This is what you wrote.It's a declaration without any supporting information. Can you see?

so you can agree satisfaction is only temporary?

Again, you are trying to overgeneralize from a few example I showed, without any supporting information.

Show me what you can do (with the help of drug).

You can step outside of your normal perspective and view everything around you with a different point of view.

And then, this. Isn't it obvious that you haven't provided lots of information, huh?

Is it enough for you to understand why I said this: "You aren't talking logically, either. I mean, you are just declaring things without much theory nor data." ?

How so? Simply because you do not understand it, you think it isn't logical.
Aren't you also just declaring things without much data?

As I've showed you, the posts of yours I've previously quoted is the enough evidence that you didn't provide much logic nor information in these posts.
Can you understand now?

If you insist diving into the technicalities of our debate simply because you don't like being wrong, then may I point out that
'You are just declaring things without much theory' doesn't make grammatical sense and is poorly worded anyways. If what you meant was "There is no theory supporting what you are declaring", then I would have to say you're wrong. It seems to me that you are falling victim to the very things you are criticizing. You aren't really counter-refuting anything that I have said, and instead are just saying "No, you are wrong. And you use bad logic, too."

So before you begin to tell people that they are not providing supporting evidence, maybe you should check to make sure that you are providing supporting evidence yourself.

Look at my posts. I've quoted what you said in the post I pointed out the lack of supporting information.
Your own words I quoted are the evidence for what I said. Wasn't it easy to see?

Furthermore, every piece of "counter-evidence" you provided (i.e. "you are not providing any supporting information for your claim" or "you aren't talking logically") could be used as counter-evidence in virtually any debate imaginable, and therefore, they have no credibility as valid counter-evidence.

Once we remove the argumentative fallacies, your post is reduced to:
"Be more specific, with details, please. Try other methods of description/explanation/indication"
basically indicating that you couldn't understand what I was saying, and felt it necessary to add 3X the amount of useful text as false accusations; most likely done in some attempt to convince yourself that you are smart.

I don't think we need to be "smart" to see the lack of supporting information in your posts I pointed out.
I mean, I quoted your words and pointed out it lacks supporting data, right after that. Maybe I should add explicit remark reminding you that your own words are CLEARLY showing the obvious fact that it lacks supporting information.

Do you need more explanation for this matter?
I'm not so interested in "debate" of yours, so much.
If you can really explain the details of what you claim, I think it might be a little more interesting.


Oh, I will ignore your "illustration" of "good debate", unless you want me to comment on that.

[Peachy Nietzsche]

Are you saying that desires and satisfactions are all chemical based?
And how about the causes of these chemical changes?

What is the "accurate understanding of the mechanics of desire" according to you?

Please explain in detail if you can.

Yes, it is all chemical based. And if there does exist any metaphysical "being" beyond the chemicals, then it is logical to assume that the metaphysical entity utilizes the chemicals as a medium for existence.

What do you mean the "cause of these chemical changes"?
Do you mean what causes drugs to give their effects?
They either mimic neurotransmitter actions by binding to receptors that our endogenous neurotransmitters would usually bind to. Other drugs work by directly effecting the current of the ion channels (either by inhibiting the current or enhancing it). And other drugs work by altering the proteins responsible for releasing and regulating neurotransmitters (amphetamine, for example, works by inhibiting the reuptake of dopamine, norepinephrine, and to a small extent serotonin.. in effect, this pumps the neurotransmitters into the synapse in large amounts).

When I mention an "accurate understanding of the mechanics of desire", I am referring to the idea that a knowledge gained from first-hand experience is more accurate than a knowledge gained from just reading about something.
For example, a tight-rope walker became good at walking on tight-ropes through experience - he didn't just read books about tight-rope walking to become good at it.

If you have the desire to be certain type of chef, you may want to do what you think is good to become one.
Now, how a person would reason and choose what to do is arbitrary.

For example, to become a pilot, you have to follow specific course with certified instructor and pass some tests, normally, in many countries.
However, you can choose to do it differently (with possible consequences), too.
There is no absolute rule in how to do something.

Of course. I wasn't suggesting that there is an "absolute rule", but some ways clearly are better than others.

Again, you are trying to overgeneralize from a few example I showed, without any supporting information.

Well, it seemed to me that you were over-complicating simple concepts. So I reduced the 'complexity' of the wording, while still trying to maintain the concept you were getting at.

And then, this. Isn't it obvious that you haven't provided lots of information, huh?

If you need me to provide further information for you to understand that, then I admit I do not really know how to go about breaking it down any simpler. It seemed like a fairly simple and logical claim that you could have either agreed with or disagreed with.

Look at my posts. I've quoted what you said in the post I pointed out the lack of supporting information.
Your own words I quoted are the evidence for what I said. Wasn't it easy to see?

So because you understand your own supporting evidence, but don't understand mine, this means that I am not providing any yet you are?
It seems to me that I am providing just as much supporting evidence as you are whenever it is needed.
I don't see the point in going any further into the technicalities of this debate. Claiming that someone is using "bad logic" is a cheap shot anyways, and it doesn't make the debate amount to anything significant. Can't you just agree or disagree with what I'm saying?

Now then,
Psychoactive substances can be used to broaden one's perspective of their own mind. Can you agree with that? Or do you disagree with that? And if you disagree, why do you disagree?

[Pandora]

I know some people go through their day in their head as they fall asleep. I tried to do it a few times but I just couldn't remember what I thought about at say 2pm or what I felt at 3pm and so on through the day. You do this with a goal in mind and if it leaves you more confused than before it can be discouraging. ( It would be hard to do it if you decided to do something like that as you go through the day as it would most definately slow you down)
I remember one of coberst books (Feeling of what happens) talked about a similar thing. The guy was saying just how much is going on below the level of awareness and how we are subsequently affected by it.(didn't really like his style, but I got his point)

[Nah]

Are you saying that desires and satisfactions are all chemical based?
And how about the causes of these chemical changes?

What is the "accurate understanding of the mechanics of desire" according to you?

Please explain in detail if you can.

Yes, it is all chemical based. And if there does exist any metaphysical "being" beyond the chemicals, then it is logical to assume that the metaphysical entity utilizes the chemicals as a medium for existence.

Well, I think you are a worshiper of chemicals.
But I'm not interested in worshiping, nor chemicals, much.

What do you mean the "cause of these chemical changes"?

I thought you might have more theory/explanation around chemical changes.
For example, the changes of chemical level can be caused by mechanical reaction such as simple massaging or heat absorption. In these cases, we may say that the changes were induced by physical reasons.
The chemical changes can be caused by different thought (and emotional reaction associated with the thought). In this case, we can see that the change is caused by information.

Do you mean what causes drugs to give their effects?

Nope.

---snip ---

When I mention an "accurate understanding of the mechanics of desire", I am referring to the idea that a knowledge gained from first-hand experience is more accurate than a knowledge gained from just reading about something.
For example, a tight-rope walker became good at walking on tight-ropes through experience - he didn't just read books about tight-rope walking to become good at it.

What is exactly you have learned as "accurate understanding of the mechanics of desire" ?
Can you explain what you learned in detail, more than what you have done above?
For example, the tight rope walker may be able to explain the initial fear and its effect as well as subsequent calmness and specific mental state associated with it IN DETAILS.

If you have the desire to be certain type of chef, you may want to do what you think is good to become one.
Now, how a person would reason and choose what to do is arbitrary.

For example, to become a pilot, you have to follow specific course with certified instructor and pass some tests, normally, in many countries.
However, you can choose to do it differently (with possible consequences), too.
There is no absolute rule in how to do something.

Of course. I wasn't suggesting that there is an "absolute rule", but some ways clearly are better than others.

Presuming something to be "clearly are better than others" without providing the perspective in which you can make such evaluation can be the sign of absolutist mentality.
So, I'd say although (on the surface) you are agreeing to the absence of "absolute rule" in learning, it seems you still (subconsciously) presume absolute flavored rule.

And I'm talking about being aware of this type of presumption and desire that pushes us into this type of presumption.

And then, this. Isn't it obvious that you haven't provided lots of information, huh?

If you need me to provide further information for you to understand that, then I admit I do not really know how to go about breaking it down any simpler. It seemed like a fairly simple and logical claim that you could have either agreed with or disagreed with.

I don't even disagree with what you said. I mean, you simply declared certain view without much logic and you can't elaborate much when requested. So there isn't much substance to agree nor disagree. It's not even very interesting, so far.

Look at my posts. I've quoted what you said in the post I pointed out the lack of supporting information.
Your own words I quoted are the evidence for what I said. Wasn't it easy to see?

So because you understand your own supporting evidence, but don't understand mine, this means that I am not providing any yet you are?
It seems to me that I am providing just as much supporting evidence as you are whenever it is needed.

I don't see the point in going any further into the technicalities of this debate. Claiming that someone is using "bad logic" is a cheap shot anyways, and it doesn't make the debate amount to anything significant. Can't you just agree or disagree with what I'm saying?

From my point of view, you do not understand how to present supporting information.

Now then,
Psychoactive substances can be used to broaden one's perspective of their own mind. Can you agree with that?

It may change perspectives. I'm not sure if it broadens or narrows.
From my experiences talking with drug users, they might have obtained different perspectives through their drug use (and/or abuse), but they had net tendency in overrating the drug induced perspectives.
And I'm talking about the problem associate with the overrating tendency of our mind.

Also, I think some of drug induced perspectives can be obtained without drugs, and it costs less than using drugs in several ways.

Or do you disagree with that? And if you disagree, why do you disagree?

It seems you are in hurry to obtain approval or disapproval, which can be the sign of strong desire (or nearly the level of thirst) for "certainty".

Why don't you present A LOT more detailed understanding (if you have) of the "mechanism of desire" and whatever you want to talk about?

And if you aren't good at presenting things, it doesn't matter. You can try to show in the form you would like to do. BUT I would like to see more descriptions rather than repetition of short declarations.

But if you are not interested, please feel free to drop it.

[Nah]

I know some people go through their day in their head as they fall asleep. I tried to do it a few times but I just couldn't remember what I thought about at say 2pm or what I felt at 3pm and so on through the day. You do this with a goal in mind and if it leaves you more confused than before it can be discouraging. ( It would be hard to do it if you decided to do something like that as you go through the day as it would most definately slow you down)
I remember one of coberst books (Feeling of what happens) talked about a similar thing. The guy was saying just how much is going on below the level of awareness and how we are subsequently affected by it.(didn't really like his style, but I got his point)

There are many techniques and method for enhancing awareness and understanding of subconscious region.
Esoteric/mystic teachings have lots of them, as well as mundane training method used in job training, for example.

"Habit trapping" is a game I had fun doing.

As for slowing down, slowing down the speed of movement and execution to the extreme level is a method used by mystic and also in sports, music, etc.
It can allow us to see very small tension/blocking/etc which would be unnoticeable in normal speed.
The stop exercise can be seen as the most extreme form of this, and it's quite interesting. I sometime freeze at home for 10, 15 minutes at odd moment for fun, at home.

The idea is "watching" and not "controlling".
It's like bird watching. We have to stay quiet and do nothing to birds.
Otherwise, they'd fly away.

But things happened during semi-conscious state can be recalled and reviewed for better understanding. It may help us to be more conscious when similar situation happens, again. It provides the sensation a bit similar to deja vu, and it may let us wake up a bit more, on time.

[Peachy Nietzsche]

Well, I think you are a worshiper of chemicals.
But I'm not interested in worshiping, nor chemicals, much.

I am not worshiping anything. It is your choice to not find any interest or relevance in chemicals, and your philosophy will be handicapped as a result.

What is exactly you have learned as "accurate understanding of the mechanics of desire" ?
Can you explain what you learned in detail, more than what you have done above?
For example, the tight rope walker may be able to explain the initial fear and its effect as well as subsequent calmness and specific mental state associated with it IN DETAILS.

I'll try, but it is the nature of such concepts that they are difficult to explain - as with most abstract concepts.
Desire itself is as much of a reward as the satisfaction that comes with fulfilling a desire - some would even go far to say that there is no such thing as "satisfaction", but the sensation of satisfaction is merely the feeling that comes with new desires which replaced the old desire.
I do not agree with that, but it is true to some extent. It hints towards an idea that it is not the actual desire causing the feeling of desire, but the feeling itself would exist even if the reason it exists (or what we think to be the reason) was absent.
Say, for example, that you are in a state of desire. You desire an ice-cream cone, but there is no ice-cream cones available. So, because you are still in a state of desire, your brain registers what it would like next, say, a hot dog.
The feeling of desire exists independently of what is desired. The "what" is a function of the feeling; the feeling is not a function of "what".

It may change perspectives. I'm not sure if it broadens or narrows

There are certain processes in my brain that I would have never even known to have existed if it weren't for drugs altering my perspective.

From my experiences talking with drug users, they might have obtained different perspectives through their drug use (and/or abuse), but they had net tendency in overrating the drug induced perspectives.
And I'm talking about the problem associate with the overrating tendency of our mind.

Well, depending on the drug, the very chemical responsible for making the brain think that something is more important than it actually is might have been at work.
Usually being aware of our mind's tendency to "overrate" things is more than enough to suffice at getting rid of this negative aspect of drug use.

Also, I think some of drug induced perspectives can be obtained without drugs, and it costs less than using drugs in several ways.

Certainly! But I would recommend it as a "one time" thing, or a "special occasion" thing.

It seems you are in hurry to obtain approval or disapproval, which can be the sign of strong desire (or nearly the level of thirst) for "certainty".

No, its really not, I just feel like we have gone off-topic

Why don't you present A LOT more detailed understanding (if you have) of the "mechanism of desire" and whatever you want to talk about?

I'll certainly try. I'll wait for your response to my reply earlier before posting more.