Determinism

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Re: Determinism

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:49 am

iambiguous wrote:
Note to others:

Anyone here also not confused by the points she makes? I am myself compelled by the laws of matter [in a determined universe] to be confused by them, but somehow she makes it appear [to me] as though I am still responsible for being confused.

I don't think she is saying that, at least not regarding learning to no longer blame.

Let's say blame leads to more pain. Part of why we blame is to make things better. We can't help but think that.

However, we might learn - be changed - by experience, over time, unfreely, to no longer blame, as some people already have.

That is a direction things might inevitably take. Bringing this up and communicating this would be one of the causes leadning to other people, unfreely, realizing this, especially when coupled with their experiences.

Determinism does not mean that organisms cannot learn or change. It simply means that their changing is determined.
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Re: Determinism

Postby Meno_ » Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:14 pm

For edification perhaps for the self, as opposed to others, there is merit to asking the question, as to how to makes sense out of the question, the statement:

How do determined acts result in ideas which induce self referential ideas of responsibility, through compatible epochs of free will?

Logically this apparent paradox is solvable by the inclusiveness of both : by the use of both: the rhetorical and the structural continuum as partial differentiated constructions. Structural and functional meaning evolves in conjunction as a result.

Peace Girl, a while ago I retracted my initial reactions, on realizing Your solution based upon the first two of Your suggestions, because I could not yet realize its non rhetorical structural signifiers, in addition struggling with clarity. I think I'm getting nearer, yet not yet in an ideal position regarding the same clarity. But its a step forward., worth noting.
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Re: Determinism

Postby peacegirl » Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:57 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
iambiguous wrote:
Note to others:

Anyone here also not confused by the points she makes? I am myself compelled by the laws of matter [in a determined universe] to be confused by them, but somehow she makes it appear [to me] as though I am still responsible for being confused.

I don't think she is saying that, at least not regarding learning to no longer blame.

Let's say blame leads to more pain. Part of why we blame is to make things better. We can't help but think that.

However, we might learn - be changed - by experience, over time, unfreely, to no longer blame, as some people already have.

That is a direction things might inevitably take. Bringing this up and communicating this would be one of the causes leadning to other people, unfreely, realizing this, especially when coupled with their experiences.

Determinism does not mean that organisms cannot learn or change. It simply means that their changing is determined.


Thank you for trying to clarify to iambiguous what I was saying. I cannot seem to make progress. I have said countless times that everything we do, say, and feel are embedded and in sync with the unfolding of natural law. That being said, it certainly doesn't mean that we throw up our hands and say, what will be will be. Would anyone allow a child to crawl into the street and say it's already been fate ordained to let the child get hit by a car and die? The agent, the "I", the self (whatever you want to call it) is what we call the responsible party, not in a moral accusatory way, but in a way that assigns the responsibility for an action to the person who caused said action. If a policeman pulled the trigger and killed someone (for whatever reason), then he was responsible for pulling the trigger. This is not about right or wrong. It's just about establishing ownership. I can't go further if people tell me that the cop didn't shoot that person; it was his synapses that made him do it, or that determinism means we cannot change the future due to new ways of thinking (that are also part of the causal chain). We know that once something is done it couldn't have been otherwise, but before an action takes place, we have a choice, although it's not a free one because we are compelled to choose the most preferable option that is available to us at any given moment. This is an invariable law.
Some books are to be tasted, others to be swallowed, and some few to be chewed and digested: that is, some books are to be read only in parts, others to be read, but not curiously, and some few to be read wholly, and with diligence and attention.
Francis Bacon (1561-1626)

“Just look at us. Everything is backwards, everything is upside down. Doctors destroy health,
lawyers destroy justice, psychiatrists destroy minds, scientists destroy truth, major media destroys
information, religions destroy spirituality and governments destroy freedom.” – Michael Ellner



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Re: Determinism

Postby peacegirl » Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:17 pm

Meno_ wrote:For edification perhaps for the self, as opposed to others, there is merit to asking the question, as to how to makes sense out of the question, the statement:

How do determined acts result in ideas which induce self referential ideas of responsibility, through compatible epochs of free will?

Logically this apparent paradox is solvable by the inclusiveness of both : by the use of both: the rhetorical and the structural continuum as partial differentiated constructions. Structural and functional meaning evolves in conjunction as a result.

Peace Girl, a while ago I retracted my initial reactions, on realizing Your solution based upon the first two of Your suggestions, because I could not yet realize its non rhetorical structural signifiers, in addition struggling with clarity. I think I'm getting nearer, yet not yet in an ideal position regarding the same clarity. But its a step forward., worth noting.


I want to clarify that we do not have free will of any kind. But this does not mean we can't use the term "free" as long as it's qualified to mean "I did something of my own free will or desire." The author uses this phrase, I was compelled, of my own free will...throughout the book. This is not a contradiction if you understand the meaning of the terms. Being able to act on one's own desire is often thought of as having free will, especially among libertarians. But how can will be free when we can only go in one direction? We cannot choose what we believe is worse when a better alternative is available. What you may find preferable may not be what someone else finds preferable due to the fact that a juxtaposition of difference in each case create alternatives that affect choice.
Some books are to be tasted, others to be swallowed, and some few to be chewed and digested: that is, some books are to be read only in parts, others to be read, but not curiously, and some few to be read wholly, and with diligence and attention.
Francis Bacon (1561-1626)

“Just look at us. Everything is backwards, everything is upside down. Doctors destroy health,
lawyers destroy justice, psychiatrists destroy minds, scientists destroy truth, major media destroys
information, religions destroy spirituality and governments destroy freedom.” – Michael Ellner



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Re: Determinism

Postby Meno_ » Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:11 pm

peacegirl wrote:
Meno_ wrote:For edification perhaps for the self, as opposed to others, there is merit to asking the question, as to how to makes sense out of the question, the statement:

How do determined acts result in ideas which induce self referential ideas of responsibility, through compatible epochs of free will?

Logically this apparent paradox is solvable by the inclusiveness of both : by the use of both: the rhetorical and the structural continuum as partial differentiated constructions. Structural and functional meaning evolves in conjunction as a result.

Peace Girl, a while ago I retracted my initial reactions, on realizing Your solution based upon the first two of Your suggestions, because I could not yet realize its non rhetorical structural signifiers, in addition struggling with clarity. I think I'm getting nearer, yet not yet in an ideal position regarding the same clarity. But its a step forward., worth noting.


I want to clarify that we do not have free will of any kind. But this does not mean we can't use the term "free" as long as it's qualified to mean "I did something of my own free will or desire." The author uses this phrase, I was compelled, of my own free will...throughout the book. This is not a contradiction if you understand the meaning of the terms. Being able to act on one's own desire is often thought of as having free will, especially among libertarians. But how can will be free when we can only go in one direction? We cannot choose what we believe is worse when a better alternative is available. What you may find preferable may not be what someone else finds preferable due to the fact that a juxtaposition of difference in each case create alternatives that affect choice.





Freedom is another word, admittedly, however the word has two derivatives:

The first is, the dialectically relevant , rehardless of the developmental schema relating to time and space.it has been reified as a human and social right. The second done has been drastically realized as a pragmatic propositional value, and yet still relatively connected , at least tengentially to the common sense interpretation of what freedom and free will imply.

The very least developmental , structural and functional connection. , entailing the very general sense of social constructive standards of the self relating to its social objects and objectives , is within the the scope of reductionism, whether be phenomenological or eidectuc.

As space and time evolve, the ground of structural fidelity this out as it were, into less permeable and transparent structural basis.

To use common sense describes by rhetoric , does lead into less cohesive way to avoid paradoxical interpretatiions.

This is where we are today, and the political reality is using this , to create a faux foundation .

This thinning foundation. given rise to less continuous, apparently less continuum between such notions as freedom , will, and responsibility.

As a result the functional derivitive will become questionable, resulting of question reduced to inarguably notions.
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Re: Determinism

Postby iambiguous » Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:20 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
iambiguous wrote:
Note to others:

Anyone here also not confused by the points she makes? I am myself compelled by the laws of matter [in a determined universe] to be confused by them, but somehow she makes it appear [to me] as though I am still responsible for being confused.

I don't think she is saying that...


From my frame of mind [which, admittedly, may well be wrong], it's not what she is saying in a wholly determined universe that really matters. Instead, it is whether or not she was ever free to say something else instead. Just as it is not how I react to what she says that matters. Instead, it is whether I was ever really free to react in a manner other than I did.

This going all the way back to whatever propels/compels matter -- all matter including the human brain/mind -- to unfold only as it must given those ubiquitous "laws of matter".

In other words, how do we fully explain the relationship between the brain and the mind? And then, for the faithful, the soul.

Karpel Tunnel wrote: Let's say blame leads to more pain. Part of why we blame is to make things better. We can't help but think that.


Again, imagine a hypothetical universe in which aliens who reside in an autonomous zone are observing us on Earth --- a planet embedded in a wholly determined zone. They note this exchange in which we discuss things like blame. But what they observe are thoughts and feelings and utterances and behaviors that were only ever going to unfold as they do. In other words, from my way of thinking, as though here on Earth we are all just the equivalent of Nature's dominoes toppling over onto each other. Yet they note in turn how the evolution of matter on Earth into life into human brains has created a matter actually able to convince itself that blame is embedded in what we were compelled to call "free will". But that's just a psychological illusion inherently, necessarily embedded in an ontologically determined reality. At least on our planet.

Whether we learn or not, whether we change or not...what on earth does it mean [for all practical purposes] to speak of this as unfolding "unfreely"?

It makes sense to you and to her and to others in a way that I simply don't get. But she makes it appear to me that I could get it if only I'd "come around" to her way of thinking. Meanwhile she is acknowledging [or so it seems to me] that there is no way in which I was ever free to come around.

I'm clearly missing something here that somehow I am able to not miss. But how exactly would I go about that in a wholly determined universe?

Karpel Tunnel wrote: That is a direction things might inevitably take. Bringing this up and communicating this would be one of the causes leading to other people, unfreely, realizing this, especially when coupled with their experiences.


Might inevitably take? Okay, how is that communicated by mere mortals to Mother Nature? The entity that seemingly commands all matter to unfold per her "laws"?

Isn't that a powerful reason why mere mortals invent Gods? That way the dots can be connected -- connected teleologically -- between Mother Nature and a "meaning", a "purpose" behind existence itself.

Only for all practical purposes in a determined universe we could never have not invented the Gods.

Karpel Tunnel wrote: Determinism does not mean that organisms cannot learn or change. It simply means that their changing is determined.


Yeah, and [for me] that is exactly what the autonomous aliens are telling themselves. They note changes that were never able not to be on planet Earth.

Meanwhile, they report back to their superiors on the home planet and they are judged as to how accurate their assessment is. And then blamed for the parts they get wrong. Why? Because they actually were free [up to a point] to not get it wrong.

And here is where I then switch gears from things able to be gotten right or wrong in the either/or world, and things only able to be judged as right or wrong in the is/ought world.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Determinism

Postby iambiguous » Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:09 pm

peacegirl wrote:I have said countless times that everything we do, say, and feel are embedded and in sync with the unfolding of natural law. That being said, it certainly doesn't mean that we throw up our hands and say, what will be will be.


How does "everything" here not include a choice to either throw up or not throw up our hands?

peacegirl wrote:Would anyone allow a child to crawl into the street and say it's already been fate ordained to let the child get hit by a car and die?


Hell, in this world there are those who would actually choose to throw the baby into the street themselves. Watch enough "true crime" docs and there is almost nothing that flesh and blood human beings won't do to sustain what they have come to construe as in their own best interest.

But: Have they come to construe this freely of their own volition? How is that determined beyond all doubt?

If nothing else, I take exception to the manner in which you present your argument here as an objectivist. As though regarding a question this philosophically baffling, you have already pinned it down.

Acknowledging in turn that you could never have not convinced yourself that you have pinned it all down.

I'm more than willing to concede that even in accepting that we do possess some measure of autonomy, there is almost no chance that what I think is the case here is wholly in sync with an actual understanding of existence itself.

peacegirl wrote:The agent, the "I", the self (whatever you want to call it) is what we call the responsible party, not in a moral accusatory way, but in a way that assigns the responsibility for an action to the person who caused said action.


We are responsible in that the choices we make precipitate consequences. I once walked around a corner, spooked a dog, and the dog ran into the street and was hit by [of all things] an MTA bus! It died.

Now, I'm responsible for its death though few would insist that I am in turn morally culpable.

But: In a wholly determined unvierse, what aspect of this incident was it ever really possible for me to freely change?

Yes, we choose things and there are consequences. But are we ever really free to not chose them?

Same with the incident with the policeman. Were the interactions of matter unfolding in his brain responsible for the shooting? Was he ever able to effectively control those interactions? How do these relationships "work" for all practical purposes? And here neurologists and others are attempting -- using the scientific method -- to establish that. Materially, phenomenologically, existentially.

But it seems [to me] that you are suggesting that only if their findings [based on empirical evidence gathered and then collated experimently] come into sync with your already established conclusions [deductions, intellectual contraptions] will they be right.

peacegirl wrote:We know that once something is done it couldn't have been otherwise, but before an action takes place, we have a choice, although it's not a free one because we are compelled to choose the most preferable option that is available to us at any given moment. This is an invariable law.


In my view, this is far more a psychological contraption that you concocted allowing you to imagine a future in which human interactions are more in sync with behaviors [re conflicting goods] that appeal to you as "right" and "just".

And this allows for the sort "comfort and consolation" that comes with at least being able to imagine a more "progressive" future for our species.

Only, from my way of thinking, given a wholly determined universe, you were never able not to think this.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Determinism

Postby peacegirl » Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:08 am

Meno_ wrote:
peacegirl wrote:
Meno_ wrote:For edification perhaps for the self, as opposed to others, there is merit to asking the question, as to how to makes sense out of the question, the statement:

How do determined acts result in ideas which induce self referential ideas of responsibility, through compatible epochs of free will?

Logically this apparent paradox is solvable by the inclusiveness of both : by the use of both: the rhetorical and the structural continuum as partial differentiated constructions. Structural and functional meaning evolves in conjunction as a result.

Peace Girl, a while ago I retracted my initial reactions, on realizing Your solution based upon the first two of Your suggestions, because I could not yet realize its non rhetorical structural signifiers, in addition struggling with clarity. I think I'm getting nearer, yet not yet in an ideal position regarding the same clarity. But its a step forward., worth noting.


I want to clarify that we do not have free will of any kind. But this does not mean we can't use the term "free" as long as it's qualified to mean "I did something of my own free will or desire." The author uses this phrase, I was compelled, of my own free will...throughout the book. This is not a contradiction if you understand the meaning of the terms. Being able to act on one's own desire is often thought of as having free will, especially among libertarians. But how can will be free when we can only go in one direction? We cannot choose what we believe is worse when a better alternative is available. What you may find preferable may not be what someone else finds preferable due to the fact that a juxtaposition of difference in each case create alternatives that affect choice.





Freedom is another word, admittedly, however the word has two derivatives:

The first is, the dialectically relevant , rehardless of the developmental schema relating to time and space.it has been reified as a human and social right. The second done has been drastically realized as a pragmatic propositional value, and yet still relatively connected , at least tengentially to the common sense interpretation of what freedom and free will imply.

The very least developmental , structural and functional connection. , entailing the very general sense of social constructive standards of the self relating to its social objects and objectives , is within the the scope of reductionism, whether be phenomenological or eidectuc.

As space and time evolve, the ground of structural fidelity this out as it were, into less permeable and transparent structural basis.

To use common sense describes by rhetoric , does lead into less cohesive way to avoid paradoxical interpretatiions.

This is where we are today, and the political reality is using this , to create a faux foundation .

This thinning foundation. given rise to less continuous, apparently less continuum between such notions as freedom , will, and responsibility.

As a result the functional derivitive will become questionable, resulting of question reduced to inarguably notions.


I understand that there are many interpretations of the word free [will]. My only interest is sharing what I know to be true, ( ie., that we are compelled to move in the direction of greater satisfaction than what the previous position offered). If we are compelled to choose only one alternative because the other was never a possibility once the choice was made, we could not have chosen otherwise. The definition I gave is accurate, and it IS why we don't have free will and never did have free will since civilization began. Everything developed just the way it had to, but that doesn't mean we can't make huge leaps in progress.
Some books are to be tasted, others to be swallowed, and some few to be chewed and digested: that is, some books are to be read only in parts, others to be read, but not curiously, and some few to be read wholly, and with diligence and attention.
Francis Bacon (1561-1626)

“Just look at us. Everything is backwards, everything is upside down. Doctors destroy health,
lawyers destroy justice, psychiatrists destroy minds, scientists destroy truth, major media destroys
information, religions destroy spirituality and governments destroy freedom.” – Michael Ellner



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Re: Determinism

Postby peacegirl » Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:12 am

iambiguous wrote:
peacegirl wrote:I have said countless times that everything we do, say, and feel are embedded and in sync with the unfolding of natural law. That being said, it certainly doesn't mean that we throw up our hands and say, what will be will be.


How does "everything" here not include a choice to either throw up or not throw up our hands?

peacegirl wrote:Would anyone allow a child to crawl into the street and say it's already been fate ordained to let the child get hit by a car and die?


Hell, in this world there are those who would actually choose to throw the baby into the street themselves. Watch enough "true crime" docs and there is almost nothing that flesh and blood human beings won't do to sustain what they have come to construe as in their own best interest.

But: Have they come to construe this freely of their own volition? How is that determined beyond all doubt?

If nothing else, I take exception to the manner in which you present your argument here as an objectivist. As though regarding a question this philosophically baffling, you have already pinned it down.

Acknowledging in turn that you could never have not convinced yourself that you have pinned it all down.

I'm more than willing to concede that even in accepting that we do possess some measure of autonomy, there is almost no chance that what I think is the case here is wholly in sync with an actual understanding of existence itself.

peacegirl wrote:The agent, the "I", the self (whatever you want to call it) is what we call the responsible party, not in a moral accusatory way, but in a way that assigns the responsibility for an action to the person who caused said action.


We are responsible in that the choices we make precipitate consequences. I once walked around a corner, spooked a dog, and the dog ran into the street and was hit by [of all things] an MTA bus! It died.

Now, I'm responsible for its death though few would insist that I am in turn morally culpable.

But: In a wholly determined unvierse, what aspect of this incident was it ever really possible for me to freely change?

Yes, we choose things and there are consequences. But are we ever really free to not chose them?

Same with the incident with the policeman. Were the interactions of matter unfolding in his brain responsible for the shooting? Was he ever able to effectively control those interactions? How do these relationships "work" for all practical purposes? And here neurologists and others are attempting -- using the scientific method -- to establish that. Materially, phenomenologically, existentially.

But it seems [to me] that you are suggesting that only if their findings [based on empirical evidence gathered and then collated experimently] come into sync with your already established conclusions [deductions, intellectual contraptions] will they be right.

peacegirl wrote:We know that once something is done it couldn't have been otherwise, but before an action takes place, we have a choice, although it's not a free one because we are compelled to choose the most preferable option that is available to us at any given moment. This is an invariable law.


In my view, this is far more a psychological contraption that you concocted allowing you to imagine a future in which human interactions are more in sync with behaviors [re conflicting goods] that appeal to you as "right" and "just".

And this allows for the sort "comfort and consolation" that comes with at least being able to imagine a more "progressive" future for our species.

Only, from my way of thinking, given a wholly determined universe, you were never able not to think this.


There's nothing more I can share with you because you will keep saying I could not not have said that. You keep circling around never wanting to hear any of the author's proof. And yes, you could never not have answered me the way you did. We will continue to go in circles, so it's not worth my time.
Some books are to be tasted, others to be swallowed, and some few to be chewed and digested: that is, some books are to be read only in parts, others to be read, but not curiously, and some few to be read wholly, and with diligence and attention.
Francis Bacon (1561-1626)

“Just look at us. Everything is backwards, everything is upside down. Doctors destroy health,
lawyers destroy justice, psychiatrists destroy minds, scientists destroy truth, major media destroys
information, religions destroy spirituality and governments destroy freedom.” – Michael Ellner



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Re: Determinism

Postby iambiguous » Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:46 am

peacegirl wrote:
There's nothing more I can share with you because you will keep saying I could not not have said that. You keep circling around never wanting to hear any of the author's proof. And yes, you could never not have answered me the way you did. We will continue to go in circles, so it's not worth my time.


If this is how you are actually inclined to view the points I raise above, then, sure, by all means, move on.

From my frame of mind, however, you are an objectivist. It's not what you believe is true that matters here nearly as much as that you believe it. Wholeheartedly. With nary a reservation. The whole package.

It is this part that allows you [psychologically] to anchor "I" to a font [an intellectual contraption] that enables you to, among other things, imagine a future in which mankind "progresses" to your own rendition "peace and prosperity".

As to whether or not either one of us did in fact possess any autonomy in sustaining the exchange, how on earth would I know?

"I" am no less "fractured and fragmented" here as I am in probing human interactions in the is/ought world. There is simply far too much that I don't know about existence, to ever lay claim to an argument such as yours.

And [in my view] it is precisely this frame of mind that you wish to avoid at all cost.

After all, I would if I could.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: Determinism

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:20 pm

iambiguous wrote:
Karpel Tunnel wrote:
iambiguous wrote:
Note to others:

Anyone here also not confused by the points she makes? I am myself compelled by the laws of matter [in a determined universe] to be confused by them, but somehow she makes it appear [to me] as though I am still responsible for being confused.

I don't think she is saying that...


From my frame of mind [which, admittedly, may well be wrong], it's not what she is saying in a wholly determined universe that really matters. Instead, it is whether or not she was ever free to say something else instead. Just as it is not how I react to what she says that matters. Instead, it is whether I was ever really free to react in a manner other than I did.

This going all the way back to whatever propels/compels matter -- all matter including the human brain/mind -- to unfold only as it must given those ubiquitous "laws of matter".

In other words, how do we fully explain the relationship between the brain and the mind? And then, for the faithful, the soul.

Karpel Tunnel wrote: Let's say blame leads to more pain. Part of why we blame is to make things better. We can't help but think that.


Again, imagine a hypothetical universe in which aliens who reside in an autonomous zone are observing us on Earth --- a planet embedded in a wholly determined zone. They note this exchange in which we discuss things like blame. But what they observe are thoughts and feelings and utterances and behaviors that were only ever going to unfold as they do. In other words, from my way of thinking, as though here on Earth we are all just the equivalent of Nature's dominoes toppling over onto each other. Yet they note in turn how the evolution of matter on Earth into life into human brains has created a matter actually able to convince itself that blame is embedded in what we were compelled to call "free will". But that's just a psychological illusion inherently, necessarily embedded in an ontologically determined reality. At least on our planet.

Whether we learn or not, whether we change or not...what on earth does it mean [for all practical purposes] to speak of this as unfolding "unfreely"?

It makes sense to you and to her and to others in a way that I simply don't get. But she makes it appear to me that I could get it if only I'd "come around" to her way of thinking. Meanwhile she is acknowledging [or so it seems to me] that there is no way in which I was ever free to come around.

I'm clearly missing something here that somehow I am able to not miss. But how exactly would I go about that in a wholly determined universe?

Karpel Tunnel wrote: That is a direction things might inevitably take. Bringing this up and communicating this would be one of the causes leading to other people, unfreely, realizing this, especially when coupled with their experiences.


Might inevitably take? Okay, how is that communicated by mere mortals to Mother Nature? The entity that seemingly commands all matter to unfold per her "laws"?

Isn't that a powerful reason why mere mortals invent Gods? That way the dots can be connected -- connected teleologically -- between Mother Nature and a "meaning", a "purpose" behind existence itself.

Only for all practical purposes in a determined universe we could never have not invented the Gods.

Karpel Tunnel wrote: Determinism does not mean that organisms cannot learn or change. It simply means that their changing is determined.


Yeah, and [for me] that is exactly what the autonomous aliens are telling themselves. They note changes that were never able not to be on planet Earth.

Meanwhile, they report back to their superiors on the home planet and they are judged as to how accurate their assessment is. And then blamed for the parts they get wrong. Why? Because they actually were free [up to a point] to not get it wrong.

And here is where I then switch gears from things able to be gotten right or wrong in the either/or world, and things only able to be judged as right or wrong in the is/ought world.
You just muddied the waters on every point, bringing in all sorts of stuff and not interacting with the ideas I presented. Perhaps pointing this out would make you try something else. Perhaps not. With my limited knowledge I cant know though my experience leads me to think you cant really listen or here 'listen' to another person at this time.0
Yes, everything is determined. yes, people blame. peacegirl thinks we will learn to not blame.
One could say that peacegirl thinks that not-blaming is catchy.
All of what you associate with that issue. And all the other problems you want to resolve, and anything that my post happens to make you think is irrelevant.

It's like someone notes an issue in one of your posts. It's not everything, but it's one part. You mentioned that you weren't sure as a pedestrian when to cross the street. They say, well, when it's green facing you. You then post back about your bad marriage, your hemmroids, how the neighbors view you, without ever, it seems trying to show you understood the thing about the green light or you didn't. Like interacting with the focus of the other poster. So the next step could be taken.

I promise you I did not think my post would solve all the world's problems or all metaphysical issues or all of yours. If I point out one thing, it doesn not mean I think you should be happy or eveything is peachy. It is me trying to explain one thing.

In a determined universe you might come to change the way you post informed by this. Or you might not. In a free will universe you might change after this is pointed out, or not. You might be helped to understand what peacegirl is saying, or not.

I think you probably agree that people can change due to outside influence, since this is one of the core points you make, a la dasein. But from our perspective, we dont know when or if....
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Re: Determinism

Postby Meno_ » Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:55 pm

Touche! One can never know exactly what paeternal of one's behavior is more determined then willful.
Some self determinations are so subtly learned that they have become rote. Here I am using that word again.
From the sense of the blank slate, determination has to source from an individual beginning, an example of that is the child on the balcony, who at one point sees through the transparent floor/foundation. His realization of depth, is a new attribution toward the birth of symbolism. Very closely aligned is the famous Narcissus Myth, and related to that are their symbolic repressions .
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Re: Determinism

Postby iambiguous » Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:36 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
You just muddied the waters on every point, bringing in all sorts of stuff and not interacting with the ideas I presented. Perhaps pointing this out would make you try something else. Perhaps not. With my limited knowledge I cant know though my experience leads me to think you cant really listen or here 'listen' to another person at this time.


Okay, note the most egregious example of this from my post above.

Karpel Tunnel wrote:Yes, everything is determined. yes, people blame. peacegirl thinks we will learn to not blame.


Again, from my frame of mind, it is less what she thinks is true in a universe where everything is determined, and more whether she was ever able to not think it.

Is this exchange itself included in everything? If so then what does it really mean to blame here? How is blaming not just another manifestation of nature having evolved into minds precipitating consequences precipitating blaming that must ever and always be in sync with the laws of matter?

She seems to blames me here in the manner in which the free will folks blame others when they are convinced that blame is an appropriate choice to make in an autonomous world.

Karpel Tunnel wrote:One could say that peacegirl thinks that not-blaming is catchy.
All of what you associate with that issue. And all the other problems you want to resolve, and anything that my post happens to make you think is irrelevant.


One could say lots of things. But is one free to say that what one says is not the only thing that one was ever able to say in any particular context, at any particular time?

Who comes closer to pinning that down --- peacegirl pontificating about what she thinks is true "in her head", or neurologists actually performing experiments involving the functioning human brain?

Karpel Tunnel wrote:It's like someone notes an issue in one of your posts. It's not everything, but it's one part. You mentioned that you weren't sure as a pedestrian when to cross the street. They say, well, when it's green facing you. You then post back about your bad marriage, your hemmroids, how the neighbors view you, without ever, it seems trying to show you understood the thing about the green light or you didn't. Like interacting with the focus of the other poster. So the next step could be taken.


Are these experiences not in themselves inherently, necessarily embedded in a wholly determined universe?

It's not what steps can be taken but whether you are ever able to choose -- to choose freely -- not to take them.

And here I just don't know. Again, I am drawn and quartered. Those who embrace hard determinism, those who embrace the broadest interpretation of human freedom: they are both able to make convincing arguments: https://www.debate.org/opinions/does-free-will-exist

What I am most uncertain about here are the arguments of the so-called "compatibilists". Those who make that crucial distinction between mindful matter choosing to make a move in a chess match and the pieces themselves [mindless matter] unable to choose at all.

Like somehow that's "better" for us than the position of the hardcore determinists. Meanwhile in "choosing" to move a piece, I am never able to actually do this freely. I do only what I must. But then settle for the illusion of psychological freedom.

Karpel Tunnel wrote:I promise you I did not think my post would solve all the world's problems or all metaphysical issues or all of yours. If I point out one thing, it doesn not mean I think you should be happy or eveything is peachy. It is me trying to explain one thing.


You "promise" this in the manner in which a free-will advocate would. Or so it seems to me.

You "try to explain" this in a world where the explanation itself is necessarily embedded in "everything being determined".

Yet somehow [it seems] you able to convince yourself that your explanation is better than mine. Even though both explanations are but an inherent manifestation of matter unfolding into the only future possible given the immutable laws of matter.

Karpel Tunnel wrote:In a determined universe you might come to change the way you post informed by this. Or you might not. In a free will universe you might change after this is pointed out, or not. You might be helped to understand what peacegirl is saying, or not.


Yes, in a determined universe, I might come to choose an explanation more in sync with peacegirls. Yet, in the manner in which I have come to understand determinism, I would really only "choose" this.

Those autonomous aliens, however, would know full well the crucial distinction, right? For all practical purposes for example.

Karpel Tunnel wrote:I think you probably agree that people can change due to outside influence, since this is one of the core points you make, a la dasein. But from our perspective, we dont know when or if....


Okay, but how broadly do you wish to encompass "outside influences"? In the is/ought world, given some measure of human autonomy, those outside influences would [in my view] include things like historical and cultural and experiential contexts. And a world bursting at the seams with contingency, chance and change.

But in a wholly determined universe it might be argued that those "outside influences" encompassed every and all aspect of existence/reality itself.

Right?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: Determinism

Postby Meno_ » Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:10 am

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
iambiguous wrote:
Note to others:

Anyone here also not confused by the points she makes? I am myself compelled by the laws of matter [in a determined universe] to be confused by them, but somehow she makes it appear [to me] as though I am still responsible for being confused.

I don't think she is saying that, at least not regarding learning to no longer blame.

Let's say blame leads to more pain. Part of why we blame is to make things better. We can't help but think that.

However, we might learn - be changed - by experience, over time, unfreely, to no longer blame, as some people already have.

That is a direction things might inevitably take. Bringing this up and communicating this would be one of the causes leadning to other people, unfreely, realizing this, especially when coupled with their experiences.

Determinism does not mean that organisms cannot learn or change. It simply means that their changing is determined.




I think while we are bounded within and withoit the is/ought or the. deterministic world, the topicality of representation may be valuable at this point.
The history of philosophy is yet another element that can be retraced from this mix, as at least partially responsible for the WILL. Schopemhauer covers this, and of this guide is used , the problem of partial inclusive/exclusive basis toward an understanding of clarity.

Next , how did others , Nietzsche primarily, deal with what has reduced to set theory, for what Nietzsche and Husserl became evident as transcendental.

The is/ought world is a preface to this, summarily calling for the synthesis, a primary continuity based on what is conscious and what is not. What is nott known can play a part in determining action, stemming from unconscious motivation. If such is a basis of a future representation of the will to understand, then all those guys seeking some connection between excluded (inductive) and all inclusive (reductive) sets must see an alternative to a summary inclusive set between the two.

Husserl solved this neatly, with the only missing hypothetical that could work at all: the transcendental reductiive levels.

Into this mix, all of.what is listed as possible parts, can be spoken of as intrinsic in the very same set. This would satisfy the criteria for an absolute content into the represented will, and this is more credible then a principle working on nihilization (Nietzsche) of total projection of a thetic absolute.

By inquiring into the nihilization. of free will and the total abdication of it to absolute determination, the concept of historical determination. will tend to help solve the problem.

The question was asked as to how far do we extend relevance , where from the deducement can be made of a simulated will , to power?

The bounderies containing more of the referential elements grow more binding insofar as the complexity of their content becomes more appearent, to organize. and control. the simpler , more entropic boundaries, the less the simulated field becoming determined.

This process need not to entail a vested authority versus anonymity feature, it is sourced from power, a power which the will imposes on the hierarchies of structural fidelity.

Husserl transcends this distinction , and delegates it toward a progressive will.

The will to live, for instance , may not be based on a conscious effort, but them again it can not be disclaimed. that it does.

It is a unity, and not a separability which can be anayized within or without any set conception or preconception, but they too can be aasigned such roles. They do not authenticate or disauntthenticate claims one way or another, and this is why a total determinism can coexist with a will. . the idea here is to suppress the will into subconscious motivation, and over come having deal with it on a conscious level.

Nihilism is a conscious state based on repression of excluding forces determining other choices.

For instance, responsibility preceeds other choices, not in consequence for the attainment of that responsibility, regardless of how much more.pleasurable that choice would be. Most rationalists would like to negate.that unwritten code, bland it is merely a natural code, of psychic and later realization, and not.necessarily tied to a bad dream concerning a guilt.ridden conscious psyche.

Dreams can reverse the subconscious and turn the whole thing upside down.

Very generally, to understand it otherwise, one would need to ignore the natural basis of dreams, and turn 'Civilization and Its Discomtemts' upside down. (Which has been done)
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Re: Determinism

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:59 am

iambiguous wrote:Again, from my frame of mind....

You misinterpret peacegirl. She wasn't contradicting neuroscience or determinism nor was I. I tried to explain this. If hard determinism is the case, well you're not not understanding and your're not being able to understand now, was all determined. Peacegirl acknowledges that, accepts that, assumes that. That's why, as she said, she does not blame you. She thinks others will be similarly affected, over time, and stop blaming, when they realize that you could not help what you did, that one cannot. People will change, not from free will, but affected by what they experience. That blaming will come to seem pointless. No contradiction with neuroscience in this and further it ASSUMES everything is determined. My guess is it is determined that you will not understand this either. Peacegirl is nicer than me about that. He's more like Jesus on the cross in relation to those nailing him up. Maybe one day I will be utterly determined by events and my reactions to it to give up blame also. That would not contradict determinism either.

I do feel some empathy sometimes. This would also be determined. Determinism does not rule out changes in patterns, in fact, it seems to entail it, so far at least. Peacegirl thinks a specific change will come. Determined. In part this change will come from people who have already been compelled to give up blame, pointing out that blame hurts and doesnot help. This will be part of the causes and effects which, within determinism, will compell others to give up blame. No free will in any of this.

IOW that humans might give up blaming one another is not inconsistant with determinism. That peacegirl might disagree with you on such an issue does not necessarily entail blame.

That's all. No it does nto solve conflicting goods. No it does not mean that one should have a positive attitude about determinism. No, it does not mean that peacegirl proved free will is not possible. It just means what I said I was pointing out.

I won't read your response. So forget what i should have done or what I didn't do, or what I seem to be doing.

Is there something you might have missed and misinterprete?

What might that be?

You may not learn how to feel good about all the things you feel bad about, but you might learn something. I wonder if you have learned anything useful to you in all these years.
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Re: Determinism

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:43 am

The belief in Determinism functions as a security-blanket for most, who would rather that life have some definitive-pre-existing-plan, than no plan at all. No plan, means that individuals are responsible for the course of their lives, and the results, whether good or bad. Those who are dissatisfied in life, cannot accept this, since it would mean blaming themselves rather than others. Life is filled with winners and losers, but, mostly losers. The losers have a desperate need to Blame, people other than themselves. Determinism helps this function, as a release-valve. If all is Determined, then the Losers, can point the finger elsewhere, instead of inward.

Losers reject the possibility that it is their own fault in life, and also reject the possibility that winning is the result of hard work, dedication, and sacrifice.

Winners are rare, by Nature, and will always be a minority in existence.
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Re: Determinism

Postby promethean75 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:58 am

unwrong wrote:The belief in Determinism functions as a security-blanket for most, who would rather that life have some definitive-pre-existing-plan, than no plan at all.


the conclusion that there is no freewill does not come about because one feels uncomfortable about being caught stealing a candy bar and wants to convince themselves that they couldn't have done otherwise. the feeling of guilt is hardly a proof that there is freewill.

and while there is no such thing as freewill, there is no such thing as a 'plan' either. causality does not denote teleology. to think otherwise would be to anthropomorphize nature and give to it a deliberating will. it has no such thing.

unwrong wrote:Those who are dissatisfied in life, cannot accept this, since it would mean blaming themselves rather than others.


but others can't be blamed either if there is no freewill.

unwrong wrote:Life is filled with winners and losers, but, mostly losers. The losers have a desperate need to Blame, people other than themselves. Determinism helps this function, as a release-valve. If all is Determined, then the Losers, can point the finger elsewhere, instead of inward.

Losers reject the possibility that it is their own fault in life, and also reject the possibility that winning is the result of hard work, dedication, and sacrifice.


on the contrary, it's those who still believe in freewill that demonstrate their lack of constitution and strength in having to blame and put to shame. behind every condemnation is a complaint, and behind every complaint is a weakness.
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Re: Determinism

Postby peacegirl » Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:46 pm

iambiguous wrote:
Karpel Tunnel wrote:
You just muddied the waters on every point, bringing in all sorts of stuff and not interacting with the ideas I presented. Perhaps pointing this out would make you try something else. Perhaps not. With my limited knowledge I cant know though my experience leads me to think you cant really listen or here 'listen' to another person at this time.


Okay, note the most egregious example of this from my post above.

Karpel Tunnel wrote:Yes, everything is determined. yes, people blame. peacegirl thinks we will learn to not blame.


I believe that people will not blame when they understand that no one is to blame and the benefits for all mankind that will occur when this becomes a global application.

iambiguous wrote:Again, from my frame of mind, it is less what she thinks is true in a universe where everything is determined, and more whether she was ever able to not think it.


No iambiguous. Obviously I was never able not to think it, but without any further understanding based on the extension of this truth, we cannot make any progress, meaning you and me. I'm sure I can make progress with others who find this thread interesting.

iambiguous wrote:Is this exchange itself included in everything? If so then what does it really mean to blame here? How is blaming not just another manifestation of nature having evolved into minds precipitating consequences precipitating blaming that must ever and always be in sync with the laws of matter?


You're right. Blaming is just another manifestation of nature having evolved into minds precipitating consequences precipitating blaming, but we learn and grow and the knowledge that there will be no consequences (under the changed environmental conditions) precipitates a new landscape that was never before possible due to the fact that we had to believe in free will and the consequences that go along with it, as part of our development.

iambiguous wrote:She seems to blames me here in the manner in which the free will folks blame others when they are convinced that blame is an appropriate choice to make in an autonomous world.


I am not blaming you iambiguous. I am frustrated by your circling around without showing an interest in where this discovery leads.

Karpel Tunnel wrote:One could say that peacegirl thinks that not-blaming is catchy.
All of what you associate with that issue. And all the other problems you want to resolve, and anything that my post happens to make you think is irrelevant.


iambigous wrote:One could say lots of things. But is one free to say that what one says is not the only thing that one was ever able to say in any particular context, at any particular time?


No iambiguous, if man's will is not free, how can we be free to say that what we say is not the only thing that we were ever able to say in any particular context, at any particular time? You're not convinced that man does not have free will in any capacity. If you're unsure, it's no wonder we can't move forward.

iambiguous wrote:Who comes closer to pinning that down --- peacegirl pontificating about what she thinks is true "in her head", or neurologists actually performing experiments involving the functioning human brain?


This shows me you understood nothing I wrote. First off, I'm not pontificating. You are the dogmatic one. Secondly, this knowledge comes from astute observation. It does not always have to involve an experiment that begins with a hypothesis to prove correctness in an observation. You're way out in left field now.

Karpel Tunnel wrote:It's like someone notes an issue in one of your posts. It's not everything, but it's one part. You mentioned that you weren't sure as a pedestrian when to cross the street. They say, well, when it's green facing you. You then post back about your bad marriage, your hemmroids, how the neighbors view you, without ever, it seems trying to show you understood the thing about the green light or you didn't. Like interacting with the focus of the other poster. So the next step could be taken.


iambiguous wrote:Are these experiences not in themselves inherently, necessarily embedded in a wholly determined universe?

It's not what steps can be taken but whether you are ever able to choose -- to choose freely -- not to take them.


Once again this just shows me that you never understood a thing I wrote. I asked you to kindly use the definition I am offering, but you go right back to the inaccurate definition of determinism, which causes a false dichotomy between freedom and automation. Obviously you could never have understood what I wrote given your way of thinking, your mindset, and your predispostions.

iambigouous wrote:What I am most uncertain about here are the arguments of the so-called "compatibilists". Those who make that crucial distinction between mindful matter choosing to make a move in a chess match and the pieces themselves [mindless matter] unable to choose at all.


Compatibilists try to create a definition of "free will" that is compatible with determinism. They don't understand that there is no compatibility. By creating a more accurate definition of determinism, responsibility is increased without the need to add a definition of freedom which is a semantic shift to make it appear congruent with determinism.

iambiguous wrote:Like somehow that's "better" for us than the position of the hardcore determinists. Meanwhile in "choosing" to move a piece, I am never able to actually do this freely. I do only what I must. But then settle for the illusion of psychological freedom.


You are never able to do anything freely, but you are able to think, ponder, and contemplate the different scenarios or outcomes that may take place if you make a particular choice. This ability to contemplate helps you to choose the most advantageous option that you believe is in your favor, given your particular circumstances. You keep bringing up free will, which shows me you are confused.

Karpel Tunnel wrote:I promise you I did not think my post would solve all the world's problems or all metaphnysical issues or all of yours. If I point out one thing, it doesn not mean I think you should be happy or eveything is peachy. It is me trying to explain one thing.


iambiguous wrote:You "promise" this in the manner in which a free-will advocate would. Or so it seems to me.

You "try to explain" this in a world where the explanation itself is necessarily embedded in "everything being determined".

Yet somehow [it seems] you able to convince yourself that your explanation is better than mine. Even though both explanations are but an inherent manifestation of matter unfolding into the only future possible given the immutable laws of matter.


This discovery can change the world, so it IS a better explanation than yours.

Karpel Tunnel wrote:In a determined universe you might come to change the way you post informed by this. Or you might not. In a free will universe you might change after this is pointed out, or not. You might be helped to understand what peacegirl is saying, or not.


iambiguous wrote:Yes, in a determined universe, I might come to choose an explanation more in sync with peacegirls. Yet, in the manner in which I have come to understand determinism, I would really only "choose" this.

Those autonomous aliens, however, would know full well the crucial distinction, right? For all practical purposes for example.


Do what you must do, think what you must think.

Karpel Tunnel wrote:I think you probably agree that people can change due to outside influence, since this is one of the core points you make, a la dasein. But from our perspective, we dont know when or if....


iambiguous wrote:Okay, but how broadly do you wish to encompass "outside influences"? In the is/ought world, given some measure of human autonomy, those outside influences would [in my view] include things like historical and cultural and experiential contexts. And a world bursting at the seams with contingency, chance and change.

But in a wholly determined universe it might be argued that those "outside influences" encompassed every and all aspect of existence/reality itself.

Right?


Change, contingency, outside influences, historical, cultural, and experiential contexts give us our predispositions that lead to the reasons why we make particular choices. None of this grants us free will (i.e. the ability to choose what is worse for ourselves) given the factors that are being considered when making a choice.
Some books are to be tasted, others to be swallowed, and some few to be chewed and digested: that is, some books are to be read only in parts, others to be read, but not curiously, and some few to be read wholly, and with diligence and attention.
Francis Bacon (1561-1626)

“Just look at us. Everything is backwards, everything is upside down. Doctors destroy health,
lawyers destroy justice, psychiatrists destroy minds, scientists destroy truth, major media destroys
information, religions destroy spirituality and governments destroy freedom.” – Michael Ellner



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Re: Determinism

Postby peacegirl » Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:28 pm

Urwrongx1000 wrote:The belief in Determinism functions as a security-blanket for most, who would rather that life have some definitive-pre-existing-plan, than no plan at all. No plan, means that individuals are responsible for the course of their lives, and the results, whether good or bad. Those who are dissatisfied in life, cannot accept this, since it would mean blaming themselves rather than others. Life is filled with winners and losers, but, mostly losers. The losers have a desperate need to Blame, people other than themselves. Determinism helps this function, as a release-valve. If all is Determined, then the Losers, can point the finger elsewhere, instead of inward.

Losers reject the possibility that it is their own fault in life, and also reject the possibility that winning is the result of hard work, dedication, and sacrifice.

Winners are rare, by Nature, and will always be a minority in existence.


Determinism, the way it's defined in the book, Decline and Fall of All Evil, does not mean we don't take responsibility for our actions. It's quite the opposite. Amazingly, when people know in advance they will not be blamed for hurting others without justification, they cannot do it. Responsibility goes up, not down. Determinism means not only not blaming others, but not blaming yourself for things past. It does not mean your choices are already in a fixed state where you cannot change and grow according to a continually changing set of circumstances.
Some books are to be tasted, others to be swallowed, and some few to be chewed and digested: that is, some books are to be read only in parts, others to be read, but not curiously, and some few to be read wholly, and with diligence and attention.
Francis Bacon (1561-1626)

“Just look at us. Everything is backwards, everything is upside down. Doctors destroy health,
lawyers destroy justice, psychiatrists destroy minds, scientists destroy truth, major media destroys
information, religions destroy spirituality and governments destroy freedom.” – Michael Ellner



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Re: Determinism

Postby peacegirl » Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:56 pm

promethean75 wrote:
unwrong wrote:The belief in Determinism functions as a security-blanket for most, who would rather that life have some definitive-pre-existing-plan, than no plan at all.


the conclusion that there is no freewill does not come about because one feels uncomfortable about being caught stealing a candy bar and wants to convince themselves that they couldn't have done otherwise. the feeling of guilt is hardly a proof that there is freewill.

and while there is no such thing as freewill, there is no such thing as a 'plan' either. causality does not denote teleology. to think otherwise would be to anthropomorphize nature and give to it a deliberating will. it has no such thing.

unwrong wrote:Those who are dissatisfied in life, cannot accept this, since it would mean blaming themselves rather than others.


but others can't be blamed either if there is no freewill.

unwrong wrote:Life is filled with winners and losers, but, mostly losers. The losers have a desperate need to Blame, people other than themselves. Determinism helps this function, as a release-valve. If all is Determined, then the Losers, can point the finger elsewhere, instead of inward.

Losers reject the possibility that it is their own fault in life, and also reject the possibility that winning is the result of hard work, dedication, and sacrifice.


on the contrary, it's those who still believe in freewill that demonstrate their lack of constitution and strength in having to blame and put to shame. behind every condemnation is a complaint, and behind every complaint is a weakness.


I would like to add that the belief in free will was necessary, as part of our development, in order to justify blame and punishment that followed acts of crime, and also used as a deterrent before the criminal act took place. But now that we know man does not have free will, we are able to prevent from coming back that for which blame and punishment were previously necessary. I hope people will read the first three chapters, which shows how this new world can actually become a reality.

http://www.declineandfallofallevil.com/ ... APTERS.pdf
Some books are to be tasted, others to be swallowed, and some few to be chewed and digested: that is, some books are to be read only in parts, others to be read, but not curiously, and some few to be read wholly, and with diligence and attention.
Francis Bacon (1561-1626)

“Just look at us. Everything is backwards, everything is upside down. Doctors destroy health,
lawyers destroy justice, psychiatrists destroy minds, scientists destroy truth, major media destroys
information, religions destroy spirituality and governments destroy freedom.” – Michael Ellner



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Re: Determinism

Postby promethean75 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:33 pm

Well the belief in freewill did not originally begin as an expediency with which to place blame and justify punishment. It began with the emergence of self-awareness, and was a necessary error, you might say, in our reasoning. Only later was the belief found to be prevalent and then used for moral and judicial purposes. It was a 'useful error' in reasoning that was exploited by those who wanted to control others with the least amount of effort necessary.... a kind of path of least resistance. One doesn't need brute force to control if one can evoke in the other, a bad conscience. Making feel guilty is an extension of that effort without the need to apply coercive force.
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Re: Determinism

Postby Meno_ » Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:57 pm

therefore the fall waa really a quasi politicalcal effort to gain control and domination. through the manipulation of self impinged guilt unto the very created by the Creator. I wonder of the Holy Fathers saw this as a.scheme, or.they simply put it down to a magical existential imavoidaiility.

Was that close to an absolute proof of a.determined evolutionary stage of robbing man of even the semblance of free will yet holding him responsible none the less.; or was it a case of abstraction ex-nihilo of a semblance of compatible coincidental occurance which brought certain elements of both into a pre-conceived pre reflexive union, building up affinity rather then rather then intentional antogony?
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Re: Determinism

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:26 pm

promethean75 wrote:but others can't be blamed either if there is no freewill.

So there is free-will, whether people want to accept that or not.

At the very least, there is blame. And that is because people do, instinctively, sub-consciously, search for causes. Causes can be anthropomorphic. Because people are responsible for their own actions. Although, again, people will deny self-responsibility.
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Re: Determinism

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:29 pm

peacegirl wrote:Determinism, the way it's defined in the book, Decline and Fall of All Evil, does not mean we don't take responsibility for our actions. It's quite the opposite. Amazingly, when people know in advance they will not be blamed for hurting others without justification, they cannot do it. Responsibility goes up, not down. Determinism means not only not blaming others, but not blaming yourself for things past. It does not mean your choices are already in a fixed state where you cannot change and grow according to a continually changing set of circumstances.

Determinists would say that some people are 'determined' to take responsibility, and be responsible, whereas others are not.

However this is a contradiction. You cannot be 'determined' to be responsible. Being responsible, is the determination itself.
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Re: Determinism

Postby promethean75 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:57 pm

describe and articulate what the state of responsibility is like and entails, please. is it some kind of state of mind.... or is it a physical action? is it merely a thought in which the string of words 'i am responsible' crosses someone's mind? also, would i need to 'feel responsible', whatever that means, to be answerable for what i do? that is to ask, is there any difference in 'feeling responsible' and 'not feeling responsible' as it pertains to my recognizing consequences for my actions, remembering them, and modifying my behavior in the future to either experience again or prevent said consequences? from a third person perspective, could i look at the way person x is acting and be able to say 'this guy believes in freewill'?

what is the 'mental state' of responsibility... what is the phenomenology of responsibility? is it a kind of qualia? what is this strange state that only exists if the string of words 'there is freewill' crosses my mind?

the short refutation of freewill is this; natural laws operate seamlessly and there can be nothing random in nature... no 'breaches' or temporary suspensions of causality so that some other set of natural laws can suddenly and spontaneously intervene and affect events and affairs such that they occur in some other way than they were going to occur had that breach not occurred. there is no cartesian second substance acting on the material world... and even granting that there was... there would have to be yet another set of natural laws overseeing such interaction between these two ontologically distinct substances that are themselves unable to be suspended or breached.
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