Certainty = presumption of permanence/universality

I have been interested in the sense of certainty.
As I discussed with other members and observed other threads with similar interests, I think the essence of the certainty as the presumption of permanence/persistence/universality/etc.

When we are certain, we are creating fixation, bondage, binding. At the same time, we are cutting out and eliminating other things and possibilities.
And we do it as if it were for eternity and everywhere and for everyone, and so on, mostly subconsciously.

Now, certainties resulting from logical thinking is often at least a bit more conscious and also easier to revise, while emotional (and usually subconscious) certainties are more deep rooted and often related to core beliefs or core perspectives, usually pretty important for the persona, making it difficult to recognize or to modify/release.

Other than" certainty", there are other words that show we are fixating and presuming the permanence/persistence/universality, like “reality”, “truth”, etc.
For some, “objective” is the expression of certainty (and the presumption of permanence/universality).
While others may use “exist”, “existence”, as the “sure” word, or the word that boost the certainty.

We can observe this by reading people talking about “existence” of something, for example.
In their conversation and perspective, it’s very rare to find any notion of time or location that we can see they are usually presuming (subconsciously and implicitly) the permanence/universality of the said “existence”.

I think naive presumption of permanence/persistence/universality/unconditional-nature will cause one’s thought to be a lot less precise and often confused.
The lack of awareness about applicable perimeter/limit/condition of logic can be fatal for logical thinking.

In other words, unless these naive presumptions (and/or habit of presuming these too easily) are well cleaned and wiped out, we would not be able to think in very logical manner, most probably.

[EDIT]
Related threads:

Fake certainty viewtopic.php?f=1&t=172604
There are no absolute viewtopic.php?f=1&t=172618
I Love Agnostics viewtopic.php?f=1&t=172892
Boundaries viewtopic.php?f=1&t=172662

Nah, my friend. For once I actually agree with nearly everything you’ve said.

The only question I am left with is what do you propose our system of logic ought to be based upon? To me, it seems as though the presumptions you speak of (such as “existence”, “objectivity”, etc.) act as something of a foundation for our methods of logic. While I do agree that we often presume too easily, I also think that some of the assumptions we take most for granted are those which seem in our best interest to treat as if certain (for practical purposes).

So, if we are to wipe the slate clean, so to speak, what do we replace these assumptions with? Or are you proposing that we stop treating said assumptions ‘as if certain’, and openly recognize them for what they are?

In the case of the latter, I’m not sure “certainty” would retain any meaning whatsoever.

Although I think we started to think logically (in the broader sense) because we wanted to be (absolutely) certain, to be more precise/accurate, I don’t think it’s too difficult for us to realize the nature of logical thinking to be “hypothetical”, “conditional”, “temporary”, “relative”, and so on, which exclude the possibility of absolute and unconditional and permanent certainty we wanted.
And it can be disappointing, frustrating, and confusing, I guess.

However, I don’t think the lack of absolute certainty would disturb our logical thinking.
I mean, we (may) now know that it’s hypothetical and temporary and it’s based on arbitrary perspective, but within the limitations, logical thinking can still provide dependable logical (and conditional) certainty, and it can be useful for what you desire.
It does offer conditional but consistent result.

I don’t think we need any assumption that something is permanent/universal to think logically.
It’s a bit like playing any game, following the arbitrary rules we adopt while playing.

The only difference is that we are aware that the logical certainty is conditional one, and I think it’s just helpful to be less fanatic and level headed.

Certainty can be seen as an illusion, another imaginary construct like value, moral, reality, truth, god, and so on.
It’s the expression of our (subconscious) hope/desire for the permanence/persistence/universality/etc, that is nothing other than our desire for the absolute/unconditional/infinite/etc, to me.

When we hear about certainty and how sure someone is, we can understand that the person is expressing his desire (without being aware, most of the time). It’s a bit like an attempt to voice magical spells. By declaring something, the person is creating, maintaining, and/or enforcing the world view, the perspective in which things are favorable for her/him.

This is probably why we see relatively many people declare something and acting as if the declaration make it “true”, subsequently.

PS.

I do think more and more that it is coming from the nature of our awareness, which is the base of our information processing (including logical thought and emotional evaluation).

We may think we “exist”, but from the perspective of awareness (or information processing), we exist when we are registering incoming information, at least, and we feel that we surely exist when we are self-aware.
And with this sense of self-awareness, I already detect the presumption of permanence/persistence.

The tendency of the awareness to focus on narrower area and see it as if “whole”/“everything” and the tendency to maintain such focus seem to be creating the presumption of permanence/persistence/universality/etc, by extrapolating and stretching the limited area/information.

Putting technical things aside, I do understand that some people feel confused or even worried at the loss of the (absolute logical) certainty.
If understood well, it will destroy lots of naive notions like moral and other idea that makes up commonly believed things (a.k.a. common sense). And it means the person may become an outsider of a sort. It puts one away from common delusion/dream we often share. This can be stressful for a human being.
So some (or many) would cling onto remaining belief, like religious one, and cover up and conceal the perspective deep into the subconscious region.
But it’s NOT really healthy thing to do because they are (although subconsciously) aware that what they take seriously and believe is bullshit, to some extent, and this causes fear and stress (somewhere) in them.

Hmm. I am certain that I feel certain about some things and uncertain about others, and that there is certainty and uncertainty in life. I am uncertain that anything is absolutely certain, but certain that I think that some things are. How uncertainly certain, or is it certainly uncertain, is that?

You are mixing up logical certainty and emotional one.
The lack of absolute certainty is about the logical certainty.

You need to examine finer differences if you want to understand these things.
You may want to think more about what is the nature/requirement of logical (in the broader sense) or systematic thinking vs. emotional judgment/evaluation (dome mostly subconsciously), for example.

Actually, I don’t think she was mixing them. the emotion of certainty is all we can have. Absolute certainty is just an idea.

EDIT: decided to add this little part…

what your calling logical certainty is the same as any other certainty but what causes it is different. so someone who makes what they are certain of governed by logic, is making a conscious choice. Very good choice IMO, but just a choice.

So in what way do we find out what we are left with if we remove the elements of shared conscious delusion, subconcious delusion and emotion? Notice, I’m not saking what we are left with. I am asking in what way do we find out what we’re left with?

Or … is there no need to ask the question?

“one who thinks he’s found all of the pieces to a puzzle, stops looking for them” -me

I agree that there can never be absolute certainty. but i am usually against absolutist things in general (and when it comes down to it, we can’t even be certain of our own reality whatsoever. for all we know we could be living in a pod in the real world being food for machines). we have varying degrees of certainty

finishedman, what are we left with? what we are always left with. our experience. that alone should be more than enough for you to go out and feed it (with pleasurable things and success of coarse)

Logical (and conditional) certainty is felt when we evaluate something within specific perspective in logical manner. (“Logical” in broader sense)
For example, it we measure a pen using a ruler, we may feel certain that it measures so and so inches or cm or whatever the unit.
Similarly, we can do math of natural number and evaluate 4 + 17 as 21.
As long as we are used to the perspective (and/or the evaluation method), we can have the logical certainty. And this kind of certainty is a bit different from simple emotional certainty that may come from subconscious and illogical evaluation.

As you pointed out, logical certainty can be more conscious one.
Also, it can be more reliable. And I think this is one of the major reason we try to think logically (well, at least some of us).

So, mixing these different certainty is like mixing logical though and emotional evaluation, and it usually makes one’s thought less precise, more confused, and so on, as far as I’ve observed.

IF you are including the awareness in what you call subconscious (or conscious) delusion, I don’t think there is anything left to find out to be found.

But I’m not talking about total annihilation of everything in this thread.
I’m talking about the certainty (the presumption of permanence/universality).

And without the presumption of permanence/universality, we can think/observe pretty well.

Again, I’m not talking about ALL presumptions/delusions.
It’s about presumption of permanence/universality that seems to create the impression of certainty.

“Need” for who? In what kind of situation?
If you are talking about your need, it depends on what you want/like/desire/fear/etc.

Maybe you don’t need to ask that particular question because your response seems to be written with the (probably extrapolated) mis-interpretation of what I said, and I explained about it.

Well I was getting more at this idea: The amount of logic that can be added to certainty isn’t just seperated by logic and illogical. one just has ‘more’ logic to it. so you see then that logic is more like a slider bar option. you can never completely fully slide the bar to reach abolute logic, but you can at least assume something close to that. really it’s limitless how much logic you put behind one action. so even though you consider your actions to be logical I bet there ie an even more logical way to look at it. one that closer matches reality. So when you say logical certainty, really you mean ceratiny with more logic to it. because They can all be considered logical to some degree.

So you can see how you arent’ really mixing them, you’ll be using certainty all the same no matter how much logic you put behind each thing you are certain of. I bet a lot of the things you are certain of don’t have the same amount of logic behind each one, yet you don’t consider to be mixing them I bet.

call yours purer then the next, sure, but it’s purity would be, and should be, considered subjective.

will my post in here be posted?

redoing it will suck

What is “logic” for you?
And why you cannot think purely logically?

“Action”? I don’t think I talked about action.
Possibly, you are mistaking the certainty I’m talking about.
In this thread, I’m talking about the certainty of “evaluation”, and not necessarily “action” or decision behind it.

Any evaluation is subjective, so to say.
Now, the data and method used in the evaluation can be of different quality.
If you really don’t care about the quality of data and method, you can be happy with any evaluation and any opinion.

It appeared.

If experiences come into being from being fed junk food, then what does that say about you? It probably wouldn’t matter if that’s all your diet consists of. You wouldn’t want to starve to death. The momentum of thought and its protective nature wouldn’t allow it.

Upon realizing that the knowledge is the food and the knowledge is a delusional fixation derived from sources that falsify you, it becomes more clear that the you that you think you are does not exist as such and then you are stuck not knowing what you are left with. That is what I consider as clarity, because you no longer rely on any authority outside you whatsoever.

the simple solution is to be honest with yourself (with confirmation from both inside and outside sources)

btw I meant my post in another thread (I think it’s in this section) that discredits universitality… no ones responded yet

Two good points indicating that a byproduct of being honest reveals a kind of courage when one is on his own standing on his own two solid feet. That being something which cannot be given by somebody.

Freeing yourself of the burden cannot be accomplished by trying to develop that courage. If you are freed from the burden of the entire past of mankind‘s “common delusion/dream,” then what is left there is the courage.

Courage or not, eventually you may find that there is not solid ground, not even solid feet, to stand.
“Standing” is one of human obsession and something we seek/find the certainty.

So as the “authority” you talked about in earlier post. Outside authority or inside one, it’s just a mechanism for feeling certainty.

There seem to be whole layers of delusions: human delusion from family, community, region, country, language/race, and then delusion common to monkey type omnivore animal, and even the reptile, insect and other primitive delusions, followed by other delusion common to any information processing system, any awareness, and so on.
Things like “courage” is just another delusion in one of these layer, most probably.

your happiness sounds like pretty good ground to stand on. in the end, that’s all that really matters.

start seeking out a happier life and you’re on the sure road to seeing your world for what it is

i’m working on it…