ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, WTP)

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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Fixed Cross » Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:41 am

James S Saint wrote:Okay.
"Meaningful to the right part of your mind".
Joy is formed of the inner perception of progress (meaningfulness), even if it is a false perception.

Yes. The feeling of (will to) power -- the feeling of power is the will to more power.

So there are two questions:
How does on increase all these attributes, and (if the answer to that doesn't already answer the following) in what way can one make this activity into something which is directly perceived as having the function that it has.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby James S Saint » Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:03 am

Fixed Cross wrote:
James S Saint wrote:Okay.
"Meaningful to the right part of your mind".
Joy is formed of the inner perception of progress (meaningfulness), even if it is a false perception.

Yes. The feeling of (will to) power -- the feeling of power is the will to more power.

There is the perception of hope - Incentive.
There is the perception of progress toward that hope - Joy.
And there is the perception of progress toward a never ending, unconfined hope to accomplish anything - Power.

Fixed Cross wrote:So there are two questions:
How does on increase all these attributes, and (if the answer to that doesn't already answer the following) in what way can one make this activity into something which is directly perceived as having the function that it has.

YES!
That really is the MOST relevant question that you will ever ask for the rest of your life.
And of course, one that I have not ignored.

The ability to cause ones inner self (feelings) to agree with one's cognitive decisions is called "Discipline" or "being a disciple". How does one become a disciple to the true form and substance of his own life?

Governments ask the same question, "How can we get our own people behind our agenda?"
Or in the military, the General asks, "How can I get my troops to obey my plans and commands?"

And the answer can be stated simply, but doing it is another matter.
One must attend to "Impedance matching" - "grasping only that which is within reach".

Buddhist monks practice that for their entire lives. And they accomplish Tae Chi, or "Self-Harmony".
But the more relevant concern is how to do it right such that everyone isn't merely contemplating their navel for the rest of their lives.

The typical Westerner does the opposite, getting completely involved in tempting, uncoordinated distractions from what his life actually is, the combination of those three efforts.

As each of those efforts increase, they each enhance the ability to increase the others more greatly. They are a self-sustaining, self-maintaining, self-valuing group of efforts, called a living being, a "living particle".


How any one person accomplishes this in the "right way" (the most beneficial to that person) depends upon the condition in which they begin. The Western world is at war with itself using mental, medical, and military means to ensure each governor gains his own agenda by ensuring that none "beneath him" gain's theirs. That puts everyone in a pickle.

I have been trying to emphasis the importance of you attending to those specific efforts for what, 3 years or so? Online is a very, very slow means to communicate to another's feelings. What takes 6 months online, I can do (and have done) in merely 3 days in person. Most such efforts are not worth the effort (which is why so very many people merely leave the internet for the kids).

But it all begins, as has been told for thousands of years, by divorcing one's self from the "world" and focusing on a new path. But that alone requires discipline that is usually not discipline as much as depression and/or disgust or anger (a cheating way to get the emotions to do what they needed to do. How do you get your nation to attack Iraq? - Anger them). One must stop getting distracted by enticing signs of hopes and threats that keep them from attending to their real need. Since governors won't stop using them, one must stop being exposed to them such as to prevent the belief in the hopes and threats offered by them. One must turn away from those tempting distractions from anything other than those 3 concerns of life.

Or as Moses put it, "Do not consume the meat of a bifurcated-hoofed animal."


One means to head in that direction is to resolve the Stopped Clock Paradox.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:40 pm

I'm glad we got to this point.
You must realize that I have been making this effort the the entirety of my life - I have never trusted a single authority until what it said made sense to me.
I also practice Tai Chi, Shaolin Kung Fu, Yoga, Chi Kung and all those things. I meant to include all those things in the meta-concept "dance" but I can see why that wasn't clear.

Value Ontology is the law of not blindly obeying, of not taking anything for granted. But indeed, the challenge is in finding out what does truly sustain ones most enduring versatile self-valuing/self-harmony.

Apparently, we're quite in line concerning these means. I am still in an experimental phase of my life. But truth is closing in, as the world is properly turned to waste, there is little time left for experimentation.

On the other hand, it may be that all is already lost, and the time left is really inconsequential.
I hears some depressing news yesterday, that the seas will be dead within 40 years, even independently of Fukushima. No way to verify it, of course.
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I've been guided somewhat by William Blake's quote: "I must create a system or be enslaved by another mans; I will not reason and compare: my business is to create". Just change 'system' for 'style'. - Bill

The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:43 pm

Concerning the clock paradox, I got a bit lost there fore a moment last week, perhaps you can put the discussion back on track and indicate the last point where what I said made sense in terms of the solution you have in mind.
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The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Orbie » Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:11 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:I'm glad we got to this point.
You must realize that I have been making this effort the entirety of my life - I have never trusted a single authority until what it said made sense to me.
I also practice Tai Chi, Shaolin Kung Fu, Yoga, Chi Kung and all those things. I meant to include all those things in the meta-concept "dance" but I can see why that wasn't clear.

Value Ontology is the law of not blindly obeying, of not taking anything for granted. But indeed, the challenge is in finding out what does truly sustain ones most enduring versatile self-valuing/self-harmony.

Apparently, we're quite in line concerning these means. I am still in an experimental phase of my life. But truth is closing in, as the world is properly turned to waste, there is little time left for experimentation.

On the other hand, it may be that all is already lost, and the time left is really inconsequential.
I hears some depressing news yesterday, that the seas will be dead within 40 years, even independently of Fukushima. No way to verify it, of course.




Fixed Cross: I disagree with these points. Nothing is ever lost. We understand the genius of the nature god. It protects itself even if at the cost of modifying it"w own self conception through it's creation, namely us human beings. The big one, the big war is coming, this here is the trepidation, before the storm. Nature is intrinsically intelligent, and the interpretation of her motives, desires, are goal oriented, to assure life toward the future.

The future is within this intrinsic realisation of many worlds to come,and their intrinsic existence has a backward effect of doing everything necessary to assure that their goal is assuredly is re-founded, re grounded.

This grounding assures tacitly that no amount of destruction we can impinge on our planet can have a decisively absolute realisation, since reality is always one step ahead and it has plans to stop whatever totally negative we have in mind in terms of our mutually faithless, absolutely forlorn seeking of the true nature and intent of the nature god. It simply will not be allowed. The limits reached will create illusions of the possibility of more and more progress,yet the acquisition of knowledge will always seemingly delimit, by the decreasing of overall scope by the increasing lack of coherence due to extreme specialisation.

For instance illusions are created toward the peaceful uses of atomic energy, yet everyone playing a game of wishing to believe that there never will be a use other than.

It is inconceivable that primitive societies will not want to play the ultimate game, that is the reason I have never been excited about game theory in any mathematical or rhetorical sense. Games of probability are heavily invested with a prejudice of the virtual reality created, and it is what it is, spells a resignation of sorts toward a shift into a blind material populism, which fore bodes nothing but a troubling sense of an absolute collapse, a collapse of an entropic thinning out of a being, which should be rehabilitated much more comprehensively than let's say what green peace can do.

Therefore, things have to get really very bad, until the time comes when children will grow up and realize that play time is over.
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sincere, the centre of
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Full well your need-as
you be men
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Then, your obedient

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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:43 pm

In general I share these sentiments and conceptions - to think like this is my tendency as well. But considering that it may be true that the oceans will in 40 years be unable to support any form of life, I begin to think in terms of a whole different type of nature and evolution. Consider the possible transformation of the organic into the semi-organic. It is not unthinkable that a segment of humanity will adapt to its self-created environment and acquire all sorts of technological powers and immunities. Such things have been in the works and they're certainly not being shared with the public, for ultra obvious reasons. What's worse, I am not even certain that I can be against such developments. In the great scheme of things, where dominant species have a history of getting extinct by cataclysms, and where planets are swallowed by their suns, it would be pretty awesome if a part of humanity evolved to some kind of thousand-year-living supermen. Especially if normal humans can't experience things like sea-life or general biodiversity in anymore.

I'm just on a speculative tangent here based on reports I heard yesterday. I'm not saying the ecosystem is certainly doomed, I am not a biological expert at all. My true hope and trust is in the capacity of humans to restore the ecosystem once the ridiculous oil interests are played out. I am fairly confident we already have the technology to counteract nuclear radiation, for example, and that this technology is being hidden and its creators murdered. That won't go on forever. Right now the technocratic power of humanity is employed mainly to keep overtly available technology at a minimum level of usefulness.
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I've been guided somewhat by William Blake's quote: "I must create a system or be enslaved by another mans; I will not reason and compare: my business is to create". Just change 'system' for 'style'. - Bill

The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby James S Saint » Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:17 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:Right now the technocratic power of humanity is employed mainly to keep overtly available technology at a minimum level of usefulness.

Ayup.

And that is why one must abandon the current mindset, ontologies, and "theories" and quickly get ahead of the game.
.. PM.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Posts: 25612
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby MechanicalMonster » Wed Nov 13, 2013 2:44 pm

Yes. This also works in tandem with what you said, James, about "forces" being mystifications of old thinking, or however you phrased it.

On a side note, life will keep evolving and existing, even as we cause mass extinctions. Humans can constrict the sphere of life, but cannot eliminate it.

Also, the news (and science too to a certain extent) is in the business of depressing you.
"He who would not sacrifice his own soul to save the whole world, is, as it seems to me, illogical in all his inferences, collectively." --Peirce
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Re: ILP thread on value-ontology (starting with Nietzsche, W

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:31 am

MechanicalMonster wrote:Yes. This also works in tandem with what you said, James, about "forces" being mystifications of old thinking, or however you phrased it.

On a side note, life will keep evolving and existing, even as we cause mass extinctions. Humans can constrict the sphere of life, but cannot eliminate it.

Also, the news (and science too to a certain extent) is in the business of depressing you.

Depressing and distracting - preventing as much as possible that people value the world in their own terms. Urging them, causing urges in them to find other "worlds" in which to see themselves reflected.

From the first time I watched tv I remember marveling at the bizarre and cosmic contrast of the repeating sequence commercials - news - commercials.

Nothing could be more effective in dislodging mans sense of reality.
Thunderbolt steers all things.

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I've been guided somewhat by William Blake's quote: "I must create a system or be enslaved by another mans; I will not reason and compare: my business is to create". Just change 'system' for 'style'. - Bill

The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides
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