the four basic truths [for most of us]

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the four basic truths [for most of us]

Postby iambiguous » Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:34 pm

Birth
School
Work
Death
The true function of reason is to show man that some things are beyond reason.

Blaise Pascal


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Re: the four basic truths [for most of us]

Postby FilmSnob » Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:40 pm

Yes,

Yes...

Retirement too, depending on how much school preceded work.
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Re: the four basic truths [for most of us]

Postby anon » Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:43 pm

iambiguous wrote:Birth
School
Work
Death

Birth
Old age
Sickness
Death

...seems a little more universal, I think.
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Re: the four basic truths [for most of us]

Postby fuse » Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:31 am

So truths are just what we experience in common?
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Re: the four basic truths [for most of us]

Postby iambiguous » Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:24 pm

fuse wrote:So truths are just what we experience in common?


Good point.

But I am always searching for those things that seem to transcend dasein. Things that few of us escape---for better or for worse.

Uh, depending on your point of view, of course.
The true function of reason is to show man that some things are beyond reason.

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Re: the four basic truths [for most of us]

Postby Sauwelios » Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:13 pm

iambiguous wrote:Birth
School
Work
Death

Birth is the beginning of life. Death is the end of life. School is a prerequisite for (well-paying) work. Work (or rather its natural result, money) is a prerequisite for a living.

What is living a prerequisite for? What is the meaning of life?
"In man, creature and creator are united: in man there is matter, fragment, excess, clay, mud, nonsense, chaos; but in man there is also creator, sculptor, hammer-hardness, spectator's-divinity and seventh day:—do you understand this antithesis? And that your compassion is for the 'creature in man', for that which must be formed, broken, forged, torn, burnt, made incandescent, purified,—that which must suffer and shall suffer? And our compassion—do you not grasp whom our reverse compassion is for when it defends itself against your compassion as against the worst of all pamperings and weaknesses?" (Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil, aphorism 225. Compare The Will to Power, Kaufmann edition, section 367.)
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Re: the four basic truths [for most of us]

Postby Flannel Jesus » Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:40 pm

well, the common cliche is "Death and taxes" -- there's some room for doubt about death.
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Re: the four basic truths [for most of us]

Postby iambiguous » Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:10 am

Sauwelios wrote:What is living a prerequisite for? What is the meaning of life?


Well, here there are any number of conflicting and contradictory "basic truths" competing.
The true function of reason is to show man that some things are beyond reason.

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Re: the four basic truths [for most of us]

Postby iambiguous » Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:12 am

Flannel Jesus wrote:well, the common cliche is "Death and taxes" -- there's some room for doubt about death.


I suppose that [someday] death may well be just an option.

But not anytime soon, I suspect.
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Re: the four basic truths [for most of us]

Postby fuse » Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:02 am

iambiguous wrote:
fuse wrote:So truths are just what we experience in common?


Good point.

But I am always searching for those things that seem to transcend dasein. Things that few of us escape---for better or for worse.

Uh, depending on your point of view, of course.

I suppose I should finally ask you this - could you explain how you're using the word dasein?
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Re: the four basic truths [for most of us]

Postby Nah » Thu Nov 24, 2011 4:34 am

When I observe how people tend to use the word truth, it seems to represent the (wrong) presumptions that there is something absolutely unquestionable and its common to everybody, everywhere, without exception.

In other words, people who are interested in truth want (consciously or not) something absolutely sure, reliable, dependable, no matter what. And it's probably reflecting our subconscious fear of uncertainty.

The irony is out thought is the mechanism based on the presmption that we can obtain certainty, but to have certainty means there needs to be the potential for uncertainty at the same time.

In short, without uncertainty, we can't be certain.
But to be absolutely certain, there shouldn't be any potential for uncertainty.
So, the desire of our mind for truth, the desire to be absolutely certain, is self defeating endeavor from the beginning.

Any truth is a limited and conditional one, not absolute, so as other representation of certainty such as knowledge, moral, reality, gods, rights, and so on.



If we realize the conditional and limited nature of any certainty (due to the relative nature of any thought, evaluation, and even awareness), we would loose interests in things like truth, moral, etc.

However, as we have multi-layered awareness/mind, some would realize this only in the surface layer of the mind and subconscious and emotional layer may continue to presume/imagine the absolute certainty. People like this would be tormented by the conflicting views/desires and they would suffer, till the realization sink down (or bubble up) to all layers, or till the realization is repressed by delusion (like a nihilist becoming religious after suffering a bit or more).

Personally, I think the straight path is to have the realization in all layers, as repressing the understanding is like a lie and it take (and waste) lots of energy and such lie tends to need lots of maintenance and protection/defending. Such repression makes the person fearful, not very open, and stressful, naturally.

And having the natural and logical certainty (although it's a conditional certainty because of the nature of the thought/mind/awareness) can be satisfying enough for the desire/craving of our mind to be certain, once we prefer the straight thinking over the dependency on the false and over boosted sense of naive certainty (a. k. a. presumption, delusion, illusion, etc).


So, the truth that can be shared by any awareness with enough evaluation capability is the presumption of the truth and subsequent search/thinking for the truth is doomed to fail and it may create suffering/confusion/conflict unless the desire for the truth is satisfied/lost in all layers of the awareness.

As the awareness itself is based on the (false) sense of certainty that the awareness itself is persisting, seeking truth (and/or certainty) may shaken the foundation of awareness and cause the perceived reality of the awareness to be less solid/persistent.
It means the awareness is less tied (to the given, or all, perception/detection of "reality") and fluid and free, but it also means everything would be less sure and anything can happen, which can be fun and interesting, as well as pretty scary if there is any remaining hint of desire for the (delusional) absolute certainty.
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I don't think most humans have the preference for logical honesty/integrity that would make us to think in reasonable manner.
I don't think most of us have enough emotional stability to face simple anxiety and fear including existential anxiety.
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Re: the four basic truths [for most of us]

Postby von Rivers » Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:05 am

Nah,

Please read this article, which may help you sort out some of your confusions; a few of which I'll highlight below...
Nah's article about improving your thinking

Nah wrote:In other words, people who are interested in truth want (consciously or not) something absolutely sure, reliable, dependable, no matter what. And it's probably reflecting our subconscious fear of uncertainty.

You've named 3 different components of stock conceptions of what truth is, (which I've highlighted with different colors), all of which are often mutually inconsistent---and yet you mash them together as if they weren't, and as if a thinking person wouldn't realize it. Hence why I cite the article above. I think it has something to do with being clear and precise.

In short, without uncertainty, we can't be certain.
But to be absolutely certain, there shouldn't be any potential for uncertainty.
So, the desire of our mind for truth, the desire to be absolutely certain, is self defeating endeavor from the beginning.

Sometimes, it's possible to be certain about something, and uncertain about something else---which is totally unrelated. There is tons of potential for uncertaintly about whether my car will start---that doesn't take away from my certainty that 2+2=4. Does it for you?
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Re: the four basic truths [for most of us]

Postby Philosopher8659 » Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:13 am

iambiguous wrote:Birth
School
Work
Death


I cannot count that high. Besides, of the seven environmental acquisition systems of the human body, only 4 of them are form based, the remaining 3 are material based.

So, that makes 4 truths and 3 lies, which puts me 6 more than I am.
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Re: the four basic truths [for most of us]

Postby lizbethrose » Thu Nov 24, 2011 6:34 am

I can't believe how egotistical you guys are! :wink: Honestly--how about truths from a woman's pov:

Birth
School (maybe)
Having children
Work
Raising children
First system breakdown
Retirement
Seeing the process start again with grandchildren
Staying healthy because of your continued responsibilities (to self, husband, children, and grandchildren)
Death due to final breakdown of other systems.

and, of course, there are taxes! :D
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Re: the four basic truths [for most of us]

Postby lizbethrose » Thu Nov 24, 2011 6:38 am

fuse wrote:
I suppose I should finally ask you this - could you explain how you're using the word dasein?


I tried for some time to get an answer to this. Glad to see I'm not the only one who wonders. :)
"Be what you would seem to be - or, if you'd like it put more simply - never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise."
— Lewis Carroll
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Re: the four basic truths [for most of us]

Postby fuse » Thu Nov 24, 2011 7:30 am

lizbethrose wrote:
fuse wrote:
I suppose I should finally ask you this - could you explain how you're using the word dasein?


I tried for some time to get an answer to this. Glad to see I'm not the only one who wonders. :)

Yeah, I know it's Heidegger's terminology and I could just look that up for myself, but I can't be sure that iam means the same thing.
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Re: the four basic truths [for most of us]

Postby Sauwelios » Thu Nov 24, 2011 7:53 am

fuse wrote:
lizbethrose wrote:
fuse wrote:
I suppose I should finally ask you this - could you explain how you're using the word dasein?


I tried for some time to get an answer to this. Glad to see I'm not the only one who wonders. :)

Yeah, I know it's Heidegger's terminology and I could just look that up for myself, but I can't be sure that iam means the same thing.

I think he does. What transcends dasein is then what transcends the individual's freedom---what he cannot escape.
"In man, creature and creator are united: in man there is matter, fragment, excess, clay, mud, nonsense, chaos; but in man there is also creator, sculptor, hammer-hardness, spectator's-divinity and seventh day:—do you understand this antithesis? And that your compassion is for the 'creature in man', for that which must be formed, broken, forged, torn, burnt, made incandescent, purified,—that which must suffer and shall suffer? And our compassion—do you not grasp whom our reverse compassion is for when it defends itself against your compassion as against the worst of all pamperings and weaknesses?" (Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil, aphorism 225. Compare The Will to Power, Kaufmann edition, section 367.)
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Re: the four basic truths [for most of us]

Postby FilmSnob » Thu Nov 24, 2011 8:01 am

Mo_ wrote:Nah,

Please read this article, which may help you sort out some of your confusions; a few of which I'll highlight below...
Nah's article about improving your thinking

Nah wrote:In other words, people who are interested in truth want (consciously or not) something absolutely sure, reliable, dependable, no matter what. And it's probably reflecting our subconscious fear of uncertainty.

You've named 3 different components of stock conceptions of what truth is, (which I've highlighted with different colors), all of which are often mutually inconsistent---and yet you mash them together as if they weren't, and as if a thinking person wouldn't realize it. Hence why I cite the article above. I think it has something to do with being clear and precise.

In short, without uncertainty, we can't be certain.
But to be absolutely certain, there shouldn't be any potential for uncertainty.
So, the desire of our mind for truth, the desire to be absolutely certain, is self defeating endeavor from the beginning.

Sometimes, it's possible to be certain about something, and uncertain about something else---which is totally unrelated. There is tons of potential for uncertaintly about whether my car will start---that doesn't take away from my certainty that 2+2=4. Does it for you?


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Re: the four basic truths [for most of us]

Postby FilmSnob » Thu Nov 24, 2011 8:02 am

lizbethrose wrote:I can't believe how egotistical you guys are! :wink: Honestly--how about truths from a woman's pov:

Birth
School (maybe)
Having children
Work
Raising children
First system breakdown
Retirement
Seeing the process start again with grandchildren
Staying healthy because of your continued responsibilities (to self, husband, children, and grandchildren)
Death due to final breakdown of other systems.

and, of course, there are taxes! :D


Lol, I stand corrected.
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Re: the four basic truths [for most of us]

Postby lizbethrose » Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:56 am

fuse wrote:
I suppose I should finally ask you this - could you explain how you're using the word dasein?


Lizbeth wrote: I tried for some time to get an answer to this. Glad to see I'm not the only one who wonders. :)

Fuse wrote: Yeah, I know it's Heidegger's terminology and I could just look that up for myself, but I can't be sure that iam means the same thing.

sauwelIos wrote: I think he does. What transcends dasein is then what transcends the individual's freedom---what he cannot escape.


Then why doesn't he just say so and have done with it?

I think even Heidegger had problems with the word he'd coined, didn't he? I think Fuse's question is perfectly legitimate.
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Re: the four basic truths [for most of us]

Postby Nah » Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:11 pm

Mo_ wrote:Nah,

Please read this article, which may help you sort out some of your confusions; a few of which I'll highlight below...
Nah's article about improving your thinking

Nah wrote:In other words, people who are interested in truth want (consciously or not) something absolutely sure, reliable, dependable, no matter what. And it's probably reflecting our subconscious fear of uncertainty.

You've named 3 different components of stock conceptions of what truth is, (which I've highlighted with different colors), all of which are often mutually inconsistent---and yet you mash them together as if they weren't, and as if a thinking person wouldn't realize it. Hence why I cite the article above. I think it has something to do with being clear and precise.

Oh, you seem to be out of focus, here.
Think about something common among these, rather than focusing on differences/inconsistencies.
It should be an easy thing to do for a thinking person.


In short, without uncertainty, we can't be certain.
But to be absolutely certain, there shouldn't be any potential for uncertainty.
So, the desire of our mind for truth, the desire to be absolutely certain, is self defeating endeavor from the beginning.

Sometimes, it's possible to be certain about something, and uncertain about something else---which is totally unrelated. There is tons of potential for uncertaintly about whether my car will start---that doesn't take away from my certainty that 2+2=4. Does it for you?

It seems you are out of focus, again.

I was talking about the nature of the sense of certainty.
To have the sense of certainty. there should be a room for the sense of uncertainty.
But to have the absolute sense of certainty, there should not be any room for the uncertainty.

What our mind wants is the lack of uncertainty, in my opinion,
But the act of seeking (including seeking certainty) is inherently based on the presumption of uncertainty.
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Please put me in your ignore list if you don't like what I write. I don't mind it at all
Since it's not my intention to increase the suffering of others, please don't read my posts if you don't like them.
I do think existence, awareness, material, beings, and humans including you and me to be insane and stupid for structural reasons and from observable behaviors.
I don't think most humans have the preference for logical honesty/integrity that would make us to think in reasonable manner.
I don't think most of us have enough emotional stability to face simple anxiety and fear including existential anxiety.
And I like to think and dig things many of us don't really want to see.
Combination of these may make some of you uncomfortable, irritated, and turn into emotional, irrational, and even fanatic mental state.
So, please ignore my posts if you don't like them or if they make you feel uneasy.

Thank you for your understanding. :)
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Re: the four basic truths [for most of us]

Postby von Rivers » Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:52 pm

Nah wrote:
Nah wrote:In other words, people who are interested in truth want (consciously or not) something absolutely sure, reliable, dependable, no matter what. And it's probably reflecting our subconscious fear of uncertainty.

Mo wrote:You've named 3 different components of stock conceptions of what truth is, (which I've highlighted with different colors), all of which are often mutually inconsistent---and yet you mash them together as if they weren't, and as if a thinking person wouldn't realize it. Hence why I cite the article above. I think it has something to do with being clear and precise.
Oh, you seem to be out of focus, here.
Think about something common among these, rather than focusing on differences/inconsistencies.
It should be an easy thing to do for a thinking person.


Ok. I've arrived at (arguably) classical logic and no other form of logic, and basic arithmetic, and no other kind of math. And this makes what you said above patently false.
Reasoning: I'm interested in truth all the time, about medicine, about ethics, about fixing my car, about nutrition, etc... Nobody fucking cares if the truth about what's healthy to eat applies absolutely to someone else---or even to themselves when they're a bit older! When I'm fixing my car I don't fucking care if I'm absolutely sure of every step and detail---as long as it works. When I think "killing is wrong", and believe it's a true statement, that doesn't mean I think it holds no matter what---it might be false in cases of self-defence---but that doesn't make it any less true in other cases.

In a nutshell: When you actually think about what your first sentence says, it makes you look like someone blindfolded and swinging at a straw man pinata that's no where near any reasonable position. (Please don't try and tell me that I have a subconscious fear of classical logic and basic arithmetic being false when I'm grocery shopping or in the driveway fixing my car).

To have the sense of certainty. there should be a room for the sense of uncertainty. But to have the absolute sense of certainty, there should not be any room for the uncertainty.
Excuse me while I wipe up the coffee I just spat all over myself.
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Re: the four basic truths [for most of us]

Postby iambiguous » Thu Nov 24, 2011 7:43 pm

lizbethrose wrote:
fuse wrote:
I suppose I should finally ask you this - could you explain how you're using the word dasein?


I tried for some time to get an answer to this. Glad to see I'm not the only one who wonders. :)


Hmm...

I have noted my own rendition of dasein countless times in these forums.

Again, below is a basic description.

It revolves around the extent to which something pertains to all of us or is only pertinent [with precision] to a particular point of view. And you are right of course to note that in some crucial respects women and men experience differing trajectories.

I am an individual....a man; yet, in turn, I am but one of 6,500,000,000 additional men and women that constitutes what is commonly called "mankind". So, in what sense can I, as an individual, grasp my identity as separate and distinct from mankind? How do I make intelligent distinctions between my personal, psychological "self" [the me "I" know intimately from day to day], my persona [the me "I" project -- often as a chameleon -- in conflicting interactions with others], and my historical and ethnological self as a white male who happened adventiously to be born and raised to view reality from the perpective of a 20th century United States citizen?

How does all of this coalesce into who I think I am? And how does this description contrast with how others grasp who they think I am? Is there a way to derive an objective rendering of my true self? Can I know objectively who I am?

No, I don't think so.

Identity is ever constructed, deconstructed and reconstructed over the years by hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of variables---some of which we had/have no choice/control regarding. We really are "thrown" into a fortuitous smorgasbord of demographic factors at birth and then molded and manipulated as children into whatever configuration of "reality" suits the cultural [and political] institutions of our time.

On the other hand:

In my view, one crucial difference between people is the extent to which they become more or less self-conscious of this. Why? Because, obviously, to the extent that they do, they can attempt to deconstruct the past and then reconstruct the future into one of their own more autonomous making.

But then what does this really mean? That is the question that has always fascinated me the most. Once I become cognizant of how profoundly problematic my "self" is, what can "I" do about it? And what are the philosophical implications of acknolwedging that identity is, by and large, an existential contraption that is always subject to change without notice? What can we "anchor" our identity to so as to make this prefabricated...fabricated...refabricated world seem less vertiginous? And, thus, more certain.

Is it any wonder that so many invent foundationalist anchors like Gods and Reason and Truth? Scriptures from one vantage point or another. Anything to keep from acknowledging just how contingent, precarious, uncertain and ultimately meaningless our lives really are.

Or, of course, is that just my foundation?
The true function of reason is to show man that some things are beyond reason.

Blaise Pascal


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Re: the four basic truths [for most of us]

Postby iambiguous » Thu Nov 24, 2011 7:50 pm

Nah wrote:When I observe how people tend to use the word truth, it seems to represent the (wrong) presumptions that there is something absolutely unquestionable and its common to everybody, everywhere, without exception.


I should point out that, in part, this post is facetious. I had just been listening to The Godfathers's classic "Birth School Work Death" when the idea of "basic truths" popped into my head.

I use the word truth here only as someone curious about those things that seem relevant to all of us.
The true function of reason is to show man that some things are beyond reason.

Blaise Pascal


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Re: the four basic truths [for most of us]

Postby Nah » Fri Nov 25, 2011 6:10 am

Mo_ wrote:
Nah wrote:Oh, you seem to be out of focus, here.
Think about something common among these, rather than focusing on differences/inconsistencies.
It should be an easy thing to do for a thinking person.


Ok. I've arrived at (arguably) classical logic and no other form of logic, and basic arithmetic, and no other kind of math. And this makes what you said above patently false.
Reasoning: I'm interested in truth all the time, about medicine, about ethics, about fixing my car, about nutrition, etc... Nobody fucking cares if the truth about what's healthy to eat applies absolutely to someone else---or even to themselves when they're a bit older! When I'm fixing my car I don't fucking care if I'm absolutely sure of every step and detail---as long as it works. When I think "killing is wrong", and believe it's a true statement, that doesn't mean I think it holds no matter what---it might be false in cases of self-defence---but that doesn't make it any less true in other cases.
In a nutshell: When you actually think about what your first sentence says, it makes you look like someone blindfolded and swinging at a straw man pinata that's no where near any reasonable position. (Please don't try and tell me that I have a subconscious fear of classical logic and basic arithmetic being false when I'm grocery shopping or in the driveway fixing my car).

Again, you are out of focus.
You continue to focus on the differences even though I told you to focus on the similarity.

Your "logic" is based on the wrong focus and subsequent misunderstanding.
You are uselessly shooting at something in your imagination, again.


Focus on the certainty and especially the degree of certainty you are having (at emotional level) when you consider something as truth, if you can.

You might be slightly aware of the conditional nature of evaluation at the surface of your awareness.
But a little underneath, you can be having lots of wishful/hopeful/emotional judgment of absolute flavor.
And the way you just wrote seems to show it, for example:
"Nobody fucking cares", "I don't fucking care", "that doesn't make it any less true", "that's no where near any reasonable position", and so on.



Excuse me while I wipe up the coffee I just spat all over myself.

Please take your time to wipe off the coffee and other things you misplaced all over on yourself, if you want.
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Please put me in your ignore list if you don't like what I write. I don't mind it at all
Since it's not my intention to increase the suffering of others, please don't read my posts if you don't like them.
I do think existence, awareness, material, beings, and humans including you and me to be insane and stupid for structural reasons and from observable behaviors.
I don't think most humans have the preference for logical honesty/integrity that would make us to think in reasonable manner.
I don't think most of us have enough emotional stability to face simple anxiety and fear including existential anxiety.
And I like to think and dig things many of us don't really want to see.
Combination of these may make some of you uncomfortable, irritated, and turn into emotional, irrational, and even fanatic mental state.
So, please ignore my posts if you don't like them or if they make you feel uneasy.

Thank you for your understanding. :)
Nah
Philosopher
 
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Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 3:31 pm

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