dfsdf

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dfsdf

Postby von Rivers » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:56 am

Some things you think are right, and some wrong.
Are there really such things? Are you ever right, or ever wrong?
What would make it so?
What is it that merits our moral consideration?

To merit moral consideration is to have something that suggests there’s some way we ought to treat you, and some ways we ought not treat you.
Are there ever things we ought to do?
What is it that tells us so?

Is it being signator to a contract?

Does that miss something? .............Like everyone outside it?

How about being part of a group....

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Or is that not it?

Oh. What about being human?

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Did we get that wrong?






There’s a tree in the yard. How do I show you it’s really there?

Would showing you do it?

What do you think you're looking at?
Last edited by von Rivers on Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: dfsdf

Postby iambiguous » Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:03 am

Mo_ wrote:will fix


It's about god damned time!!! ; o )
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
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Re: dfsdf

Postby Faust » Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:58 am

To merit moral consideration is to have something that suggests there’s some way we ought to treat you, and some ways we ought not treat you.


Not something. Someone.
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Re: dfsdf

Postby von Rivers » Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:07 am

Faust wrote:Not something. Someone.


Aren't there people with noone, who still suffer? Isn't that it?
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Re: dfsdf

Postby Faust » Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:14 am

What it is is that people decide. Not in a town meeting, not democratically. But it's people who "suggest" how people should be treated.
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Re: dfsdf

Postby von Rivers » Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:27 am

Faust wrote:What it is is that people decide. Not in a town meeting, not democratically. But it's people who "suggest" how people should be treated.

Can they get it wrong?
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Re: dfsdf

Postby PavlovianModel146 » Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:28 am

That's the thing, Mo_, they can't be objectively wrong. Their suggestions may simply relate to your own suggestions, or the suggestions of others, in a way that you deem unfavorable.
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Re: dfsdf

Postby von Rivers » Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:30 am

PavlovianModel146 wrote:That's the thing, Mo_, they can't be objectively wrong. Their suggestions may simply relate to your own suggestions, or the suggestions of others, in a way that you deem unfavorable.

Why would I deem it unfavorable? What might be my reason?
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Re: dfsdf

Postby PavlovianModel146 » Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:31 am

Because you do not agree with them.
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Re: dfsdf

Postby von Rivers » Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:32 am

PavlovianModel146 wrote:Because you do not agree with them.

What might be my reason for not agreeing with someone?
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Re: dfsdf

Postby PavlovianModel146 » Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:33 am

That would be on a case-by-case basis.
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Re: dfsdf

Postby von Rivers » Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:33 am

PavlovianModel146 wrote:That would be on a case-by-case basis.

How about the case of the dog above?
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Re: dfsdf

Postby Faust » Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:34 am

Yes, they can get it wrong. People are motivated to ethics by self-interest. But there are conflicts even within individuals. Long-term and short-term goals can conflict. Morality is not atomic. Moral systems are just that - full of interrelations. So, even if we are deciding just for ourselves, we can work at cross-purposes. We can devise systems that work, that don't work, that work well or poorly.

These are but a few ways in which we can err.
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Re: dfsdf

Postby PavlovianModel146 » Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:35 am

Because you do not think a human being should render a dog in such a condition.
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Re: dfsdf

Postby von Rivers » Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:36 am

Faust wrote:Yes, they can get it wrong. People are motivated to ethics by self-interest. But there are conflicts even within individuals. Long-term and short-term goals can conflict. Morality is not atomic. Moral systems are just that - full of interrelations. So, even if we are deciding just for ourselves, we can work at cross-purposes. We can devise systems that work, that don't work, that work well or poorly.

These are but a few ways in which we can err.


If we can suggest wrongly, doesn't that mean it's something more than a suggestion?
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Re: dfsdf

Postby Faust » Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:37 am

In the case of the dog, I really like dogs and my heart goes out to the dog. i am not above presenting a moral argument in favor of punishing the person who did this. Even if I don't really believe in the argument. Tough shit. In the end, it just makes me angry. Because i really like dogs. I get a little less excited about chicken factories.
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Re: dfsdf

Postby von Rivers » Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:38 am

PavlovianModel146 wrote:Because you do not think a human being should render a dog in such a condition.

And why did they disagree?
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Re: dfsdf

Postby PavlovianModel146 » Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:38 am

I get pretty excited both about dogs and chicken factories. Especially since the chicken factories are not necessary for us to have eggs. I regularly eat eggs and those chickens are treated very well.
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Re: dfsdf

Postby PavlovianModel146 » Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:39 am

Mo_ wrote:
PavlovianModel146 wrote:Because you do not think a human being should render a dog in such a condition.

And why did they disagree?


Did who disagree? The person that did that?
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Re: dfsdf

Postby Faust » Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:39 am

If we can suggest wrongly, doesn't that mean it's something more than a suggestion?


No. This is the part you just don't get. it's not the act of suggesting itself that is wrong - it would be what we suggest that would be wrong - but not morally wrong. It would be counterproductive to the object of the endeavour. It would be like dialing a wrong number. that's not the same as a prank call.
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Re: dfsdf

Postby von Rivers » Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:40 am

PavlovianModel146 wrote:Did who disagree? The person that did that?


You said I didn't agree with someone about the dog case. That someone suggested otherwise than I did. You tell me..?
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Re: dfsdf

Postby Faust » Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:41 am

I get pretty excited both about dogs and chicken factories. Especially since the chicken factories are not necessary for us to have eggs. I regularly eat eggs and those chickens are treated very well.


I know, I know. I'm trying. My GF is trying to educate me. She's made some progress.
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Re: dfsdf

Postby von Rivers » Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:42 am

Faust wrote:it would be what we suggest that would be wrong - but not morally wrong. It would be counterproductive to the object of the endeavour.

What's the object of the endeavour?
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Re: dfsdf

Postby Faust » Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:43 am

To devise a usable moral system.
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Re: dfsdf

Postby von Rivers » Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:45 am

Faust wrote:To devise a usable moral system.

A moral system guides people in tough life choices. By what criteria would it guide? And why is that the criteria?
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