Legalize heroin

[equal2u]

No. You keep insisting it's all because of the heroin itself that people get addicted, not the user. You've been blaming the substance all the time, which is just as stupid as blaming the cliff.

I believe what he's actually been insisting is that due to the addictive nature of the drug and the fact that this is no secret, the user is at fault for taking it habitually in the first place.

No, he's insisting no one can use it habitually without getting addicted. Like you. But you're both wrong...

Every serial killer and mass murderer that has ever lived is understandable. Understanding and justification are too entirely separate concepts.

I think it's clear that you're using "understandable" as "capable of being comprehended" where John is using it more in the "a logical choice" sense. As you say, "too[sic] entirely separate concepts."

I meant 'two' not 'too'. Can't believe I did that...

Heroin users are not inclined to discuss their behaviour for obvious reasons, the evidence is beneath the surface. It's well known that some doctors and nurses use the drugs they've got access to. Sometimes heroin, sometimes similar opiate type drugs. I've told you I've met people who use heroin responsibly. It isn't difficult. All you have to do is set yourself guidelines and stick to them. The only way you can get addicted is if you behave in a way that is completely moronic. It's just a pity that that's just the way most people are.

and

You live in this paranoid mindset where people either never touch heroin ever or they become total addicts and there can never be anyone in between. You don't want to face the reality that you and your buddies got addicted because you behaved in an irresponsible and unintelligent manner. You messed up. And that's hardly surprising from your posts because your ability to think rationally is clearly very poor, and so your ability to behave rationally is likely to be poor as well. That's why you can't handle heroin- poor judgement. You're just refusing to accept this and that's why you're continuing to blame your failure on inanimate objects rather than yourself.

Not everyone that tries heroin gets addicted. Very true. However, the percentage that continue to use it who do get addicted is just about, if not, 100%. You cannot use heroin on a regular basis without developing a physical dependency to it, unless I am horribly mistaken (and if you believe I am, spare me your "my friend uses it habitually and could stop right now and not get withdrawal symptoms" -- give me a study or something legitimate). Tolerance, which develops rapidly for heroin, is ineluctable -- and this leads inevitably to physical dependence.

You are horribly mistaken. You'll only get physically addicted if you're using a large enough dose between small enough intervals. Smaller doses at longer intervals wont result in addiction. One small 'chasing the dragon' per year, for example, wont get you physically addicted, but that's still regular use. How small can the intervals and dose be before you risk developing physical addiction? I don't know. But I'm pretty sure you can do it more than once a year. That's some information we could all be given if it was legalised...

Because I've met them and I know of them.

Well I for one have have not, and know only that you suggest that they do indeed exist. However, as has been noted, you have no evidence that you can share with us outside hearsay, which in my court isn't permissible.

What about the court of rationality? Anyone with any sense can see that it's possible to use it regularly without developing physical dependence if you get the dose and intervals right. Doctors dip into the hospital supplies for years and never get physically addicted. Just speak to anyone with any knowledge of chemistry, he/she will tell you it's perfectly possible. You and Slow John are really insisting that out of the world's 7 billion population, there is not a single regular heroin user who doesn't get physically addicted? That's even more stupid than putting 'too' when you mean 'two'.

[equal2u]

Evidence:

http://www.reason.com/archives/2003/06/01/h/singlepage

Especially the 'Heroin in moderation' section.

[_________]

You are horribly mistaken. You'll only get physically addicted if you're using a large enough dose between small enough intervals. Smaller doses at longer intervals wont result in addiction. One small 'chasing the dragon' per year, for example, wont get you physically addicted, but that's still regular use. How small can the intervals and dose be before you risk developing physical addiction? I don't know. But I'm pretty sure you can do it more than once a year. That's some information we could all be given if it was legalised...

and

What about the court of rationality? Anyone with any sense can see that it's possible to use it regularly without developing physical dependence if you get the dose and intervals right. Doctors dip into the hospital supplies for years and never get physically addicted. Just speak to anyone with any knowledge of chemistry, he/she will tell you it's perfectly possible. You and Slow John are really insisting that out of the world's 7 billion population, there is not a single regular heroin user who doesn't get physically addicted? That's even more stupid than putting 'too' when you mean 'two'.

Rationality informs me that there are receptors in the nervous system to which opioids attach. It informs me that chronic use (the medical term for regular/habitual use) prompts the body to adapt its physiology (this is what I refer to when I say 'tolerance'). I know that recreational doses are typically greater than medical and for a greater ultimate duration (with the exception of chronic pain patients). I know that IV users are much more susceptible to physical dependency. To my knowledge, a state of non-dependence on the drug is typically transient for chronic recreational use - I'm sure there are a few exceptions as there is to any generality, but I don't feel this exception justifies legalization (just stick Humean's argument and I have no reason to disagree with you). I can infer by a previous comment of yours ("enjoy your bi-weekly weed bowls and your bi-yearly mushroom trips in your perfect world” - both terms being misused, by the way) that you scoff at the frequency of use that you're relying on for your argument re dependency to hold water.

I also know that I'm tiring of this whole thing, so I'll be blunt. I don't believe you really know much about heroin save what you've read in a Wikipedia article - oh, and the link you just posted about the model businessman. Here's a link to Erowid, where you could certainly learn a thing or two - they at least strive for accuracy. I don't think you have first hand experience with the drug, nor with friends, family, or loved ones using it. I think you may have experience with pot and alcohol, but nothing heavy and that because you have no access to anything heavier, you wish it were legal so that you would. I think you probably have very few friends and a less than great relationship with your parents and that you want to withdraw mainly to say, "Look at me, I'm hurting. Pay attention." I think that's why you started this thread with a sparse comment and have been generally combative, contributing numerous paroxysms but little substance.

But for some reason, no one likes the guy in the middle. If you don't commit to one extreme or the other, each pole labels you the opposition. So I'm done.

[von Rivers]

As I said, it's not economically interesting only to the extent that it's more widely available.

And vastly cheaper than now.

Quite right, which is why legalization is a bad thing. Wide availability, and cheap, means people will do it. People will even buy products they don't need or want, and even strongly dislike, so long as they are cheap and all over the place. This is a bad thing.

Your argument that it is impractical and unenforceable has been shown to be wrong by historical example, precisely because it is medication just like a doctor prescribes. Your point is flat out wrong. I can't see anything getting much more to the point than that.

If you are arguing that heroin is medication for a heroin addict, then you're wrong, because it implies that heroin is good for a heroin addict. It's impractical when it goes against the practice of medicine, which is to heal. If heroin has a limited use, that's fine, but if you are arguing that heroin should be dispensed to heroin addicts, my point wins. Furthermore, it's unenforceable because you can't be sure who is a heroin addict and who isn't. Won't give it out, then gangs. Will give it out, then heroin galore.

I am a river.

[equal2u]

Rationality informs me that there are receptors in the nervous system to which opioids attach. It informs me that chronic use (the medical term for regular/habitual use) prompts the body to adapt its physiology (this is what I refer to when I say 'tolerance'). I know that recreational doses are typically greater than medical and for a greater ultimate duration (with the exception of chronic pain patients). I know that IV users are much more susceptible to physical dependency.

To my knowledge, a state of non-dependence on the drug is typically transient for chronic recreational use

Read the article I referred you to because it clearly demonstrates that lots of people use heroin regularly without becoming physically addicted. And it really is quite achievable if you're not a total dick. Stop burying your head in the sand. If 'chronic' means injecting huge doses three times a day then yeah, sure, 'non-dependence' will be very 'transient' indeed, but use doesn't have to be 'chronic'. There are plenty of responsible areas in the spectrum between total abstinence and chronic dangerously high doses.

- I'm sure there are a few exceptions as there is to any generality, but I don't feel this exception justifies legalization

Legalisation is justified because adults should have the right to decide what substances they take into their own bodies within reason.

(just stick Humean's argument and I have no reason to disagree with you). I can infer by a previous comment of yours ("enjoy your bi-weekly weed bowls and your bi-yearly mushroom trips in your perfect world” - both terms being misused, by the way) that you scoff at the frequency of use that you're relying on for your argument re dependency to hold water.

We're talking about heroin here, not weed and mushrooms. I used to smoke weed twice a week. It was great. Why would I 'scoff' at that?

I also know that I'm tiring of this whole thing, so I'll be blunt.

What you mean is you can see you've lost the argument so it's time to start throwing insults around and then run away.

I don't believe you really know much about heroin save what you've read in a Wikipedia article

I know more about it than you do because I actually look at the evidence rather than twist my perception of reality according to my own needs like you do.

- oh, and the link you just posted about the model businessman.

It's not just about the businessman, there are numerous individuals described, and references to studies made by experts. All of which show your dogmatic perspective on heroin to be totally detached from reality.

Here's a link to Erowid, where you could certainly learn a thing or two - they at least strive for accuracy.

The people on my link strive for accuracy too, but you don't care about accuracy you just care about allaying the fears that arise from your insecurities and keeping the fragile delusional fantasy world you've constructed for yourself intact. Your link seems to be mainly technical info rather than psychosocial like mine. Thanks though.

I don't think you have first hand experience with the drug

No I haven't.

, nor with friends, family, or loved ones using it.

No I haven't.

I think you may have experience with pot and alcohol,

Yes I have.

but nothing heavy and that because you have no access to anything heavier,

Various reasons.

you wish it were legal so that you would.

. I guess you worked that out from the first post.

I think you probably have very few friends

I used to have lots of friends but I got fed up with them. I prefer my own company. It's because of other people that the world is the way it is and I can't have my legal heroin. They're all fucking sheep.

and a less than great relationship with your parents

You've lost the argument and so now you're getting nasty. My parents have got nothing to do with it.

and that you want to withdraw mainly to say, "Look at me, I'm hurting. Pay attention." I think that's why you started this thread with a sparse comment and have been generally combative, contributing numerous paroxysms but little substance.

I've provided intelligent arguments for human rights. That applies to you as much as me.

But for some reason, no one likes the guy in the middle. If you don't commit to one extreme or the other, each pole labels you the opposition. So I'm done.

You've lost. So you run away rather than accept you were wrong.

[equal2u]

Quite right, which is why legalization is a bad thing. Wide availability, and cheap, means people will do it. People will even buy products they don't need or want, and even strongly dislike, so long as they are cheap and all over the place. This is a bad thing.

Yes. Whenever I go to the supermarket I always end up coming back with tons of products I don't need or want. Some of them I even strongly dislike. I buy them because they're cheap.

[equal2u]

______ (that's a really bad username by the way) I don't 'scoff' at all at the frequency of your weed and mushroom use. I don't scoff at anyone's personal choice about their own drug use, whether they use drugs every day or never at all. I scoff at the people who insist on telling others what their drug use should be.

[equal2u]

I'm the winner.

Shame I still live in a world of losers.

[Typist]

Heroin is heroin. I don't think you understand what heroin is and what it does, or what it does long term, regardless of how responsible you think you are. I would suggest you continue to research the effects and talk to people who actually used it before you make any decisions to use it, legal or otherwise.

How dare you post mature, intelligent, well intended comments based on real world experience with the topic under discussion. That's so rude!

[equal2u]

Heroin is heroin. I don't think you understand what heroin is and what it does, or what it does long term, regardless of how responsible you think you are. I would suggest you continue to research the effects and talk to people who actually used it before you make any decisions to use it, legal or otherwise.

How dare you post mature, intelligent, well intended comments based on real world experience with the topic under discussion. That's so rude!

What the 'real world' tells us is that heroin can be incorporated into a person's lifestyle just like alcohol. With alcohol a person can use the drug responsibly and enjoy its effects on a regular basis or they can be irresponsible and end up dying from poisoning or destroying their liver. With heroin it's basically the same situation. The big difference is that heroin makes you feel way better than you'll ever feel from alcohol, which means idiots who refuse to take responsibility for themselves are more likely to get addicted to it.

Slow John's comments aren't mature, intelligent, well intended or based on real world experience. They're based on his insistence on blaming an inert substance for his heroin problems and his refusal to accept the reality that he messed up because of his own poor judgement.

[Typist]

I don't think you understand what heroin is and what it does, or what it does long term, regardless of how responsible you think you are. I would suggest you continue to research the effects and talk to people who actually used it before you make any decisions to use it, legal or otherwise.

[equal2u]

I don't think you understand what heroin is and what it does

I do.

, or what it does long term, regardless of how responsible you think you are.

What it does in the long term does depend on responsibility. Taking responsibility out of the equation is just stupid, it's about human behaviour. If you're irresponsible you'll end up dead from an overdose or physically addicted. If used responsibly you can avoid physical addiction and there are no significant effects apart from the regular sensation of bliss from heroin use.

'Slow John' of course, insists this is not the case. He insists that any heroin use will inevitably result in an unstoppable spiral into physical addiction and disasterous life failure and this is all the fault of the evil heroin and its wicked ways and not at all because the user is a total moron, no, not at all, absolutely not...

I would suggest you continue to research the effects and talk to people who actually used it before you make any decisions to use it, legal or otherwise.

I would suggest to you Typist that you actually try writing your own words for your arguments not using someone else's. And if you are going to insist on using someone else's words at least find someone who has a modicum of rationality, not someone who insists on blaming all his problems on inanimate objects rather than his own foolish actions.

[Typist]

I would suggest to you Typist that you actually try writing your own words for your arguments not using someone else's.

I suggest you get off your ass, get out on the street, find some heroin, take it for a year or two, and then come back to the forum and speak from something other than theory.

[equal2u]

I would suggest to you Typist that you actually try writing your own words for your arguments not using someone else's.

I suggest you get off your ass, get out on the street, find some heroin, take it for a year or two, and then come back to the forum and speak from something other than theory.

Do you realise that by encouraging me to break the law you're committing a crime?

I'm not going to risk arrest or assault trying to buy a substance off the street that may contain some heroin alongside other substances for an exorbitant price. This thread is about why heroin and other drugs should be legalised and regulated.

I don't need to take heroin myself to know that it can be used responsibly. I know this because it's obvious. I've provided a link which demonstrates that the idea that heroin use is impossible without a descent into total addiction and breakdown is a ridiculous myth. It can be used responsibly just like alcohol and most drugs can be.

If you want to find people who use heroin responsibly, they are not hard to find. Just click on the link I provided. If you want to find people who've ruined their lives through their heroin use but insist it's not their fault, and that it's all because of the inert substance rather than their own stupidity, they're not hard to find either.

And if you want to see someone who can't cope with the fact that responsible heroin use is perfectly possible and so rushes away to bury his head in the sand every time the issue comes up you can just look in the mirror.

[Slow John]

If you want to find people who've ruined their lives through their heroin use but insist it's not their fault, and that it's all because of the inert substance rather than their own stupidity, they're not hard to find either

just to clear a few things up: i used heroin but never got hooked. i would have gotten hooked had it been legal. the risk of going into bad neighborhoods was too much for me. the process of buying the stuff was terrifying.

i did, however, embark on a long long journey of habitual opiate abuse, again, never becoming a full blown addiction, but still holding me back in various ways.

i tried to show through many analogies and expositions that you are absolutely right about one thing: the user is responsible for the addiction, not the inert substance, heroin. the heroin doesn't bang in your front door and jump into your nose, obviously. you have been aggressively straw manning me for several posts now as someone who blames heroin.

what i suggested is that the mechanism in your brain that controls "responsibility," judgement, whatever you want to call it, is different before heroin and after heroin. so whatever judgment you are capable of wielding now, may very well change, later. judgment is not a constant or an absolute, it is more the sum total of brain chemicals and neurons, and when the pleasure center roars from its crib, you have a way of doing stupid things against logic.

in your favor, i will say that most people don't go on lengthy diatribes of how they will be different, how they will be able to keep their heads even after tasting the forbidden apple. the fact you have gone on record may be a self-fulfilling prophecy, that you in fact, will be able to hold fast. it isn't impossible. it's just very very hard.

will also add that in terms of legality, you are 100% right, you're saying essentially the same thing Ron Paul said in last year's debates. It's logical, rational and just.

Where we differ is in your refusal to acknowledge how the mechanisms of responsibility are mutable and can be impaired by drugs in the face of the most ardent intentions. a fact that argues well for not trying it. because there is a tiny margin of success in this regard, freedom seems warranted.

good luck

[equal2u]

just to clear a few things up: i used heroin but never got hooked. i would have gotten hooked had it been legal. the risk of going into bad neighborhoods was too much for me. the process of buying the stuff was terrifying.

i did, however, embark on a long long journey of habitual opiate abuse, again, never becoming a full blown addiction, but still holding me back in various ways.

i tried to show through many analogies and expositions that you are absolutely right about one thing: the user is responsible for the addiction, not the inert substance, heroin. the heroin doesn't bang in your front door and jump into your nose, obviously. you have been aggressively straw manning me for several posts now as someone who blames heroin.

what i suggested is that the mechanism in your brain that controls "responsibility," judgement, whatever you want to call it, is different before heroin and after heroin. so whatever judgment you are capable of wielding now, may very well change, later. judgment is not a constant or an absolute, it is more the sum total of brain chemicals and neurons, and when the pleasure center roars from its crib, you have a way of doing stupid things against logic.

in your favor, i will say that most people don't go on lengthy diatribes of how they will be different, how they will be able to keep their heads even after tasting the forbidden apple. the fact you have gone on record may be a self-fulfilling prophecy, that you in fact, will be able to hold fast. it isn't impossible. it's just very very hard.

will also add that in terms of legality, you are 100% right, you're saying essentially the same thing Ron Paul said in last year's debates. It's logical, rational and just.

Where we differ is in your refusal to acknowledge how the mechanisms of responsibility are mutable and can be impaired by drugs in the face of the most ardent intentions. a fact that argues well for not trying it. because there is a tiny margin of success in this regard, freedom seems warranted.

good luck

I really don't think it is as hard as you think to use heroin responsibly. The link I provided demonstrates this. As I've said before a person has to be reckless in the first place to buy heroin illegally, so people who purchase it illegally are more likely to be reckless users. Unless they're sleepwalking or under the influence of certain drugs, people have control over their own actions. Heroin doesn't change this. Once you start using heroin you can still be responsible, knowing the joy of heroin doesn't prevent that. You seem now to be shifting the blame from the heroin and onto the brain chemicals and neurons. Which is like a rapist saying, 'it wasn't my fault, my dick made me do it.'

[Gamer]

I really don't think it is as hard as you think to use heroin responsibly. The link I provided demonstrates this.

hello. pls post linky again & i'll skim it and respond

As I've said before a person has to be reckless in the first place to buy heroin illegally, so people who purchase it illegally are more likely to be reckless users.

post hoc ergo propter hoc

Unless they're sleepwalking or under the influence of certain drugs, people have control over their own actions.

well, yes, i suppose.

Heroin doesn't change this. Once you start using heroin you can still be responsible, knowing the joy of heroin doesn't prevent that.

yes. if you have an objective standard to follow ahead of time, and you have the strength to stick to it, then yes. very good.

You seem now to be shifting the blame from the heroin and onto the brain chemicals and neurons. Which is like a rapist saying, 'it wasn't my fault, my dick made me do it.

but my dick DID make me do it! no matter, where was I, ah yes:

all decisions tend to fall on a cost/benefit scale. the parts of brains recruited for these decisions are as follows: amygdala, hypothalamus, hypo dermas, the cochlear membrane, and the penile implant. ok, perhaps i made that up, but i'm sure it's true, you catch my drift.

the problem, my benumbed young chap, is that our cost/benefit slides based on certain brain parts. on monday, before heroin has ravaged our dopamine receptors, we say "the downside of using every day FAR outweighs the upside, ergo, a responsible young man as myself will abstain!"

But on TUOOOOOESDAY...after the heroin has ravaged your brain, the heroin that YOU took thinking you'd be FINE, on tuesday you say, you know what? the BENEFIT of taking every day NOW outweighs the RISKS.

That's because what the fuck is benefit anyway? It's a subjective, quasi-existential value system based on snapshots of assessments performed by the four fulcrums of decision, which again, are the hypodermic, the amydala, the howard cunningham, and the pre-frontal scrotus.

All o the sudden the happy meal changes. you can't do a cost/benefit analysis in a vacuum, because the currency, and this is key, the CURRENCY we are playing with is not money or numbers, but happiness, i.e. happiness bosons. which were discovered recently. Happiness is a shriek mistress.

you can NOT keep the same gauge for what's worth what after you do heroin. all you can do is blindly follow a set of values you held previously.

you don't strike me as the type who will blindly follow, even yourself. so what will happen is you will write a post to yourself saying "we should do heroin everyday so i can be happy," and argue ad nauseum that point, until your other self gives up. then you will say, i want to take every day and who cares if i spend my last dime, it is worth it. and so on.

PS: what?

[equal2u]

Gamer, you're just repeating the old ridiculous myth that heroin use is impossible without spiralling into addiction and ruining your life, and then listing parts of the brain as evidence of this. That's just as ridiculous as saying you can't use alcohol without becoming a complete alcoholic and destroying your liver.

You just can't cope with it can you? You can't cope with the fact that heroin can be used responsibly just like alcohol. Your jazzy, ceraazy message style doesn't hide the fact you're just a frightened puritan desperately clinging on to your precious dogmatic belief system.

Here's your link.

http://www.reason.com/archives/2003/06/01/h/singlepage

[Gamer]

You might be surprised by how often i'm called a Puritan. i suppose that's the price I have to pay for being a Calvinist – people confuse the two.

your article supports your case – I'll concede that point. i take opiates every day, two at night, and have done so for 4 years. it functions as a scotch on the rocks, and it works fine. i have never increased dosages.

i hold a job and a family and was recently named treasurer at the Calvinist church in my neighborhood. i could have been a poster boy for that article.

what seems to be missing on your end is the acknowledgement that your values can change after heroin. once you see what it's all about, you have to regroup and make new decisions based on new experiential data. you have to take into consideration the currency of the actual pleasure moments, and then evaluate the amount of risk you're willing to take for the heavenly rewards, which diminish over time if you don't up the dose. you may spend a life of discipline waiting for your next dose like a responsible little monkey. it's not a happy place. you just don't seem to get this. i have tried heroin so i know, you don't and you can't. so you have no idea. you just don't.

when i talk to my pooch all he hears is blah blah blah bone, blah blah blah, leash. my guess is you are similar when you read my posts so maybe i'll just skip the pleasantry and get to the point, which is to put some peanut butter on my balls.

if you go into heroin well-educated and with discipline, you will likely be fine. i will say you have to have a rather strong will to not up the dose, or a strong deep-seated fear of it getting out of hand.

the guy in the article, i actually know him well. he's also a calvinist, and here's what he told me: "I now take the heroin just so I can feel more or less normal every night. I might get a tiny residual sensation of calm, but nothing like I did years ago, and in a few years, it will take more to just reach baseline. my guess is i'm in denial, but i can't do much about that. I can't seem to convince myself there's anything wrong with it. meanwhile, i seemed to have stopped being at the peak of my intellectual powers. i'm fine to middling, but nothing to write home about. the smell of grass or a picnic doesn't register as pleasure. i partition my pleasure nightly, and that's enough to get by."

i can't help but respect his honesty.

[equal2u]

You might be surprised by how often i'm called a Puritan. i suppose that's the price I have to pay for being a Calvinist – people confuse the two.

Calvinism, Catholicism, Mormonism, Islam, Judaism, Scientology, whatever, they're all just different delusional belief systems shared by large numbers of people. But that's not the topic of this thread.

your article supports your case – I'll concede that point. i take opiates every day, two at night, and have done so for 4 years. it functions as a scotch on the rocks, and it works fine. i have never increased dosages.

Good for you. I guess they're prescribed by your doctor for a health reason. I want to take opiates recreationally but I can't get them from my doctor as I have no pain condition that requires them medicinally.

i hold a job and a family and was recently named treasurer at the Calvinist church in my neighborhood. i could have been a poster boy for that article.

Great.

what seems to be missing on your end is the acknowledgement that your values can change after heroin. once you see what it's all about, you have to regroup and make new decisions based on new experiential data.

Nope. I already know that heroin makes you feel bliss. Experience of the bliss doesn't change anything.

you have to take into consideration the currency of the actual pleasure moments, and then evaluate the amount of risk you're willing to take for the heavenly rewards

If you use it responsibly the risks are very low.

which diminish over time if you don't up the dose.

Nope. Only if you're using regularly enough to develop tolerance. If you space out the doses enough that wont happen.

you may spend a life of discipline waiting for your next dose like a responsible little monkey. it's not a happy place. you just don't seem to get this.

Only if the only good thing in your life is your heroin use. I want to incorporate responsible heroin use into my lifestyle, not fixate on heroin as the only good thing in my life. There are plenty of other enjoyable things for me to do inbetween my heroin doses. Including other drugs, football, films, food, exercise...

i have tried heroin so i know, you don't and you can't. so you have no idea. you just don't.

Maybe it's because your life is so miserable when you're not high.

when i talk to my pooch all he hears is blah blah blah bone, blah blah blah, leash. my guess is you are similar when you read my posts so maybe i'll just skip the pleasantry and get to the point, which is to put some peanut butter on my balls.

if you go into heroin well-educated and with discipline, you will likely be fine. i will say you have to have a rather strong will to not up the dose, or a strong deep-seated fear of it getting out of hand.

the guy in the article, i actually know him well. he's also a calvinist, and here's what he told me: "I now take the heroin just so I can feel more or less normal every night. I might get a tiny residual sensation of calm, but nothing like I did years ago, and in a few years, it will take more to just reach baseline. my guess is i'm in denial, but i can't do much about that. I can't seem to convince myself there's anything wrong with it. meanwhile, i seemed to have stopped being at the peak of my intellectual powers. i'm fine to middling, but nothing to write home about. the smell of grass or a picnic doesn't register as pleasure. i partition my pleasure nightly, and that's enough to get by."

He's become physically dependent. Stop taking it for a few weeks and he'll be able to get high as a kite again.

i can't help but respect his honesty.

I'd question his assessment of his 'intellectual powers' as 'fair to middling'. I think lower than that.

[Typist]

equal2u, perhaps could find some "responsible" heroin users and invite them in to the thread? The problem you have here is that nobody really wants to learn this from somebody has never used heroin, however adamant they might be.

[equal2u]

equal2u, perhaps could find some "responsible" heroin users and invite them in to the thread? The problem you have here is that nobody really wants to learn this from somebody has never used heroin, however adamant they might be.

The problem is that everyone wants to live within their own dogmatic perception of the world that makes them feel good because they're too scared to accept reality. It's the same phenomenon I pointed out in my 'Sexocracy' thread. People will take the delusion instead of the reality, but the more people take the delusion the worse reality gets. The more you try to change the truth the more it will destroy you. The way things are now, humans are almost entirely united in their denial of reality, that's why we're on the fast track to World War 3.

[_________]

Well you're not artistically inclined at all are you? If you're the average philistine, you should be fine.

[equal2u]

Well you're not artistically inclined at all are you? If you're the average philistine, you should be fine.

What are you talking about?

[_________]

I'm just saying, the artistically inclined seem to exhibit less reserve when experimenting with intoxicants. Perhaps if you don't fit that description you can use heroin without any negative outcome whatsoever, easy as pie.

Anyways, what I've been stressing (though John has put it a bit more eloquently) is the potential for serious issues as a result of opiate use - and I'm not saying "you will definitely get addicted if you so much as watch someone shoot up," but that you should probably treat it with a little more gravity than you would a cup of coffee. Sorry to have bothered you.