Understanding knowledge

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Understanding knowledge

Postby pljames » Sun May 27, 2012 12:38 am

:-k I love knowledge (if it makes sense to me). Knowledge seems to be a lifetime of learning experiences. Be it good or bad. I believe in common sense common logic and rational reasoning with intuitive thoughts as well. Knowledge should be shared (without bias)! Freedom of thought speech action and sharing should be our constitution. But that is not reality as we understand it. There are those who want to enslave us to power order and without question if they could. Your knowledge might not be my knowledge and vice versa. But our perception of knowledge is independent on our belief.

Words can change thoughts as beliefs. Experiences can do the same. One thought within universal thoughts and vice versa is a stumbling block because of our human nature and free will. Thoughts please. pl
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Re: Understanding knowledge

Postby ZenKitty » Mon May 28, 2012 2:37 am

I am not sure how far common sense will get you if you are willing to question things. And not sure what common logic is. I think the best start is categorical logic like Aristotle presented and than propositional logic. Those give for a nice solid basis for people to use. And this seems to be independent of common sense in some ways.
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Re: Understanding knowledge

Postby empty_clouds » Thu May 31, 2012 10:56 pm

Hello,
Can only share my sense of things.
Re: 'Knowledge'
Here's an interesting thought that was recently encountered..... Folks have noticed for about 2500 years +or- (and in writing) that 'the amassing of much knowledge does not impart wisdom'. It's very interesting to look at the difference('s) between the two. Knowledge, it should be said, certainly has its uses. Just look at the many benefits we've derived from 'science'. Wisdom, however, is much more fascinating. It does seem, though, that knowledge can't get us there.
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Re: Understanding knowledge

Postby empty_clouds » Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:01 pm

....Thoughts...

There's a very interesting exchange in the Gnostic Gospel of Philip. Some of the (male) disciples were 'unhappy' with all the attention Jesus was showing Mary (Magdalene).
"They said to him, Why do you love her more than all of us ?? The Savior answered and said to them, Why do I not love you like her ? When a blind man and one who sees are both together in darkness, they are no different from one another. When the light comes, then he who sees will see the light, and he who is blind will remain in darkness."
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Re: Understanding knowledge

Postby Drusus » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:28 pm

Mixing common sense with logic, intuition and good intend it often ends up with disasterous results. It often require a highly intelligent and rational person intensively studying an area of expertize to make the best conclusions, which sometimes are highly counter intuitive.

Most philosphers comes to a dicussion sorely ignorent about the topic and only offers guess work and assumptions, which leads to nothing, blind leading blind.
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Re: Understanding knowledge

Postby finishedman » Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:11 pm

Knowledge in the area of action is necessary to function efficiently and objectively, but knowledge is not the means of the transformation of man; knowledge is the structure of thought and thought is the dull repetition of the known, however modified and enlarged. There is no freedom through the ways of thought, the known.

The prison is created by the thought, and that is the reason why it is trying to get out of that trap it has created by itself. There is this simile …

The dog picks up a bone, a dry bone, there is nothing there, and then it bites, and the bone hurts the gums, and the blood comes out of it. And the dog believes -- imagines, experiences, feels, whatever word you want to use -- that the blood which is coming out of its own gums is from the bone. So that is the kind of trap in which the whole structure of thinking is caught up, and tries all the time to get out of that, the trap it has created.
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Re: Understanding knowledge

Postby Selah7+ » Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:07 am

The LORD gives wisdom, from His mouth comes knowledge and understanding. [Proverbs 2:6 ESV]

Then you will understand righteousness and justice and equity, every good path; for wisdom will come into your heart and knowledge will be pleasant to your soul. [Proverbs 2:9 English Standard Version]
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Re: Understanding knowledge

Postby James S Saint » Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:10 am

Selah7+ wrote:The LORD gives wisdom

..and yet having such wisdom, we are yet so obviously unwise.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Gain is obtained by giving a lot and keeping a little.
Those who too ardently seek to be seen as correct, see only correctness in themselves.
The Social Paradox - to be well grounded and soundly harmonious, one must rise above the dirt and noise.
The One God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Understanding knowledge

Postby Selah7+ » Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:33 am

James S Saint wrote:
Selah7+ wrote:The LORD gives wisdom

..and yet having such wisdom, we are yet so obviously unwise.


Yes, we are deficient. The more I learn the more I realize I don't know.
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Re: Understanding knowledge

Postby Drusus » Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:37 am

Selah7+ wrote:The LORD gives wisdom, from His mouth comes knowledge and understanding. [Proverbs 2:6 ESV]

Then you will understand righteousness and justice and equity, every good path; for wisdom will come into your heart and knowledge will be pleasant to your soul. [Proverbs 2:9 English Standard Version]
..ooh that's why it's writtent that the Earth is flat, and is the center of the universe ..but disproven?
1st genesis is nothing but violence and mass murder? ..no religion is for the most part unwise to follow, only very few parts is good.
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Re: Understanding knowledge

Postby James S Saint » Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:44 am

finishedman wrote:So that is the kind of trap in which the whole structure of thinking is caught up, and tries all the time to get out of that, the trap it has created.

Just as an experiment, and just for the briefest moment, consider that such a trap, is that of yours alone and perhaps a few isolated others.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Gain is obtained by giving a lot and keeping a little.
Those who too ardently seek to be seen as correct, see only correctness in themselves.
The Social Paradox - to be well grounded and soundly harmonious, one must rise above the dirt and noise.
The One God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Understanding knowledge

Postby finishedman » Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:56 am

The past has this body so much under control that it will not let it go. The past will not come to an end through any effort you make or whatever will power you effect. The more effort you put into it, the more willpower you use, the stronger it becomes. You came across many insights in this process, but every insight reinforces the past. It does not in any way help to understand anything and to thus free yourself from whatever. Every insight that you obtain with your investigations only strengthens and solidifies that.

Thus, what should you try to do in such a situation? Nothing, no power in the world can help you, period. As long as you remain dependent on any authority outside of you, you remain hopeless. Once you understand this clearly, there is no more helplessness, your helplessness no longer exists. Then you actually don't know what to do. This is the situation where you have to arrive, no longer knowing what to do. And, if you expect that something will happen from what you then call your 'clarity of thinking', or your 'meditation' or something similar, then you are lost forever. Because that is not the true clarity.
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Re: Understanding knowledge

Postby finishedman » Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:01 am

Selah7+ wrote:The more I learn the more I realize I don't know.


Do you have to know a thing to know that it is not the thing?
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Re: Understanding knowledge

Postby Selah7+ » Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:09 am

Drusus wrote:
Selah7+ wrote:The LORD gives wisdom, from His mouth comes knowledge and understanding. [Proverbs 2:6 ESV]

Then you will understand righteousness and justice and equity, every good path; for wisdom will come into your heart and knowledge will be pleasant to your soul. [Proverbs 2:9 English Standard Version]
..ooh that's why it's writtent that the Earth is flat, and is the center of the universe ..but disproven?
1st genesis is nothing but violence and mass murder? ..no religion is for the most part unwise to follow, only very few parts is good.


Isaiah 40:22 "It is He who sits on the circle of the earth..." Who said the earth was flat? Who said it is the center of the universe? Violence and mass murder? Oh, yes, unregenerated sinful man...that's the description. So you pick and choose? Well, I will tell you there are parts that you definately would not like, but it is ALL good. Isaiah 55:8 "My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are my ways your ways, says the LORD."
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Re: Understanding knowledge

Postby Selah7+ » Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:24 am

finishedman wrote:The past has this body so much under control that it will not let it go. The past will not come to an end through any effort you make or whatever will power you effect. The more effort you put into it, the more willpower you use, the stronger it becomes. You came across many insights in this process, but every insight reinforces the past. It does not in any way help to understand anything and to thus free yourself from whatever. Every insight that you obtain with your investigations only strengthens and solidifies that.

Thus, what should you try to do in such a situation? Nothing, no power in the world can help you, period. As long as you remain dependent on any authority outside of you, you remain hopeless. Once you understand this clearly, there is no more helplessness, your helplessness no longer exists. Then you actually don't know what to do. This is the situation where you have to arrive, no longer knowing what to do. And, if you expect that something will happen from what you then call your 'clarity of thinking', or your 'meditation' or something similar, then you are lost forever. Because that is not the true clarity.


Wow - not sure I'm following you. Are you saying that our past has all power over our present and our future? And are you saying that if I use my "willpower" to be free of the past I cannot do it? As long as you remain dependent on your "own authority", you ARE hopeless. On our own we are nothing and in darkness because of sin. The only hope is the "supernatural power" that does supply the hope to the hopeless. So are you also saying that if we realize that we have no hope and don't know what to do about it, it goes away and no longer exists? What?
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Re: Understanding knowledge

Postby Selah7+ » Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:26 am

finishedman wrote:
Selah7+ wrote:The more I learn the more I realize I don't know.


Do you have to know a thing to know that it is not the thing?


How else do you know anything...that is, whether it is or is not?
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Re: Understanding knowledge

Postby finishedman » Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:37 am

Selah7+ wrote:How else do you know anything...that is, whether it is or is not?

Do you know me?
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Re: Understanding knowledge

Postby finishedman » Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:38 am

So are you also saying that if we realize that we have no hope and don't know what to do about it, it goes away and no longer exists?


Not exactly. When you look at yourself and your life appears to have absolutely no meaning, you go searching for a meaning, you search for a goal. As long as you are searching for a goal, and as long as you are searching for meaning you will remain wandering around restlessly. 'There must after all be something meaningful to do, something with more content, something more interesting than what I'm doing now', you tell yourself. And the only thing you can do is to change yourself? But in reality the only change takes place in your thought structure, you begin to think differently and therefore to experience and feel things differently. Basically however everything remains exactly as it was. You can change your clothes and only wear the most 'fashionable' clothing just to be 'in', but inside you are still the same. Wanting to understand is only useful for changing small things in yourself. There is nothing you can do to change the past. In the hope of changing things in the future, you remain stuck with the present, which is in fact the past.

The past is always active. If the past ends, you end. That is the reason why you will never allow that, no matter how hard you try. The past is everywhere in you. What I’m saying is, why try to change yourself and your past? Just leave it alone and stop looking for a solution to something that is not really a problem for you and that you can’t easily change anyway by relying on something other than you. Only for thought there seems to be a problem because it extracts certain knowledge out of past pleasures and pains, compares the present with it, passes judgments, avoids the present by concocting a future and pursuing it. But for the comparisons that thought makes there is no problem with our life as it is; and there is no other life. It is precisely our thought of a better state that prevents us from coming to terms with our life as it is.

I know that thought is merely functional in its nature and it cannot help me become something which I am not.
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Re: Understanding knowledge

Postby Drusus » Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:11 am

Selah7+ wrote:
Drusus wrote:
Selah7+ wrote:The LORD gives wisdom, from His mouth comes knowledge and understanding. [Proverbs 2:6 ESV]

Then you will understand righteousness and justice and equity, every good path; for wisdom will come into your heart and knowledge will be pleasant to your soul. [Proverbs 2:9 English Standard Version]
..ooh that's why it's writtent that the Earth is flat, and is the center of the universe ..but disproven?
1st genesis is nothing but violence and mass murder? ..no religion is for the most part unwise to follow, only very few parts is good.


Isaiah 40:22 "It is He who sits on the circle of the earth..." Who said the earth was flat? Who said it is the center of the universe? Violence and mass murder? Oh, yes, unregenerated sinful man...that's the description. So you pick and choose? Well, I will tell you there are parts that you definately would not like, but it is ALL good. Isaiah 55:8 "My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are my ways your ways, says the LORD."
The Earth was consierd by the Christian church as a flat circular disk, what you think of if spheric as it wasn't described.

GENESIS Chapter 4, Cain and Abel
"15 And said Jehovah to him, If anyone kills Cain, double-sevens he will be avenged."
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Re: Understanding knowledge

Postby empty_clouds » Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:26 pm

....food for thought....

Given the fundamental nature of language 'debates' are NECESSARILY endless....

Tao Te Ching (Chap. 71; Trans. R.B. Blakney) suggests....

To know that you are ignorant is best;
To know what you do not, is a disease;
But if you recognize the malady
of Mind for what it is, then that is health.

The wise man has indeed a healthy mind;
He sees an aberration as it is
And for that reason never will be ill.
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Re: Understanding knowledge

Postby James S Saint » Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:33 pm

empty_clouds wrote:....food for thought....

Given the fundamental nature of language 'debates' are NECESSARILY endless....

Tao Te Ching (Chap. 71; Trans. R.B. Blakney) suggests....

To know that you are ignorant is best;
To know what you do not, is a disease;
But if you recognize the malady
of Mind for what it is, then that is health.

The wise man has indeed a healthy mind;
He sees an aberration as it is
And for that reason never will be ill.

..until he is given some psychotropic drug anyway. :-?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Gain is obtained by giving a lot and keeping a little.
Those who too ardently seek to be seen as correct, see only correctness in themselves.
The Social Paradox - to be well grounded and soundly harmonious, one must rise above the dirt and noise.
The One God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 11066
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Understanding knowledge

Postby Selah7+ » Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:33 am

James S Saint wrote:
empty_clouds wrote:....food for thought....

Given the fundamental nature of language 'debates' are NECESSARILY endless....

Tao Te Ching (Chap. 71; Trans. R.B. Blakney) suggests....

To know that you are ignorant is best;
To know what you do not, is a disease;
But if you recognize the malady
of Mind for what it is, then that is health.

The wise man has indeed a healthy mind;
He sees an aberration as it is
And for that reason never will be ill.

..until he is given some psychotropic drug anyway. :-?


James, you make me laugh. :lol:
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