A PROOF OF THE INFINITE VALUE OF A MAN OR A WOMAN

[Only_Humean]

For the rest of my life, once I reached maturity, my conscience has been bothering me: Did he injure his brain as he hit the tarred road? Did he suffer a concussion?

I don't disagree that maiming people unnecessarily is a bad thing, of course But from the value point of view, why is it bad? A person with a broken arm (or an amputee) is worth no less than a person with two functioning arms, surely?

[thinkdr]

For the rest of my life, once I reached maturity, my conscience has been bothering me: Did he injure his brain as he hit the tarred road? Did he suffer a concussion?

I don't disagree that maiming people unnecessarily is a bad thing, of course But from the value point of view, why is it bad? A person with a broken arm (or an amputee) is worth no less than a person with two functioning arms, surely?

Yes, the person is worth just as much as before the injury. But the one who committed the injury has subtracted some value - from the universe. The Ethical idea is to ADD value, not to diminish it.

In the calculus of value every handicap (if taken as such), every actual disability may be interpreted as an incongruence, a Transposition of value. These have only fractional worth ...some only minuscule value. Thus the disability may not reduce the value of the individual, which is aleph-one, even if written as an exponent, raising the uncountably-high value by a fraction more ...It's like taking $5 off from - or adding $5 more on to - one billion dollars.

[Arcturus Descending]

thinkdr wrote:

In my own life experience, I as a young boy of 14 learned a judo move. Soon after, some kid, who likely lived in the district, came up to me, in the street, and started shadow boxing in my face, perhaps looking to do a little sparring. I used the move that I had read about on him, tripped him up and he fell backward onto the street on his back.

For the rest of my life, once I reached maturity, my conscience has been bothering me: Did he injure his brain as he hit the tarred road? Did he suffer a concussion? I'll never know, as I never saw him, or any of his eight cohorts, his buddies again. The point is, that one little momentary triumph on my part was definitely not worth it. {Since then the entire neighborhood of my boyhood was razed to the ground in the name of Urban Renewal, taken by eminent domain; so I can't go back there even if I tried. All the residents were dispersed and scattered in a diaspora. I now live about 2000 miles away from that city of my birth.}

I am not trying to mitigate your actions, but you were then just a boy of 14. What happened also points out how important it is when anyone, child [or] adult, learns a new martial art discipline - to also learn how to discipline the mind by not reacting except in certain situations...or how to respond in particular situations. If I'm not mistaken, a 'true' teacher also teachers that. Perhaps you learned the 'move' on your own. In any area of life, whatever the situation or circumstances, we ALL have to learn this but do we really?

At what age do you feel ‘you reached maturity’? Was your conscience bothering you ‘before’ you reached maturity? You used the word ‘once’…. This is not a challenge, thinkdr, I am only interested in your answer. Since you were there at the time of his fall, was he hurt? Did they have to call an ambulance for him or did he get up on his own? Did you try to find out what happened to him?

You reacted to something though apparently it was not your intention to hurt him. Aside from all of that, you did learn a valuable lesson. You said that your conscience was still bothering you. Is it now? I don’t think that we have to go through life allowing our consciences to bother us ad continuum. That, in itself, doesn’t have much effect on us, except to make us feel badly, which doesn’t necessarily change our behavior. But once we’ve seen as much of the picture as we can, taken responsible for our part of the behavior and learned that particular lesson, we can let go of the guilt and move on. There will be many more lessons to learn and guilt to let go of. But I’m pretty sure you know all of this.

Are you still into the martial arts?

[Arcturus Descending]

For the rest of my life, once I reached maturity, my conscience has been bothering me: Did he injure his brain as he hit the tarred road? Did he suffer a concussion?

I don't disagree that maiming people unnecessarily is a bad thing, of course But from the value point of view, why is it bad? A person with a broken arm (or an amputee) is worth no less than a person with two functioning arms, surely?

O_H, is it a 'good' thing maiming them necessarily? I don't think it's a question of good or bad but of just what is or seeing an entire picture!
From the 'value' point of it, it is not only our own perception that means something - you asked 'why is it bad'? The perception and feelings of the person who was maimed, even necessarily, must be taken into account, no?
Sure, that person becomes no less or more valuable (?) in our eyes because of the maiming - but from his own point of view, if he is not able to use his arm[s] for a little while or ever, well, let me ask you - would you say to him what you said above? Would you inflict that bandaid on him even though you felt you were coming from a good place albeit I do understand your wanting to remind him of that?

[Only_Humean]

I don't disagree that maiming people unnecessarily is a bad thing, of course But from the value point of view, why is it bad? A person with a broken arm (or an amputee) is worth no less than a person with two functioning arms, surely?

O_H, is it a 'good' thing maiming them necessarily?

If it's a moral necessity, then yes

From the 'value' point of it, it is not only our own perception that means something - you asked 'why is it bad'? The perception and feelings of the person who was maimed, even necessarily, must be taken into account, no?
Sure, that person becomes no less or more valuable (?) in our eyes because of the maiming - but from his own point of view, if he is not able to use his arm[s] for a little while or ever, well, let me ask you - would you say to him what you said above? Would you inflict that bandaid on him even though you felt you were coming from a good place albeit I do understand your wanting to remind him of that?

I'm asking specifically about thinkdr's Value theory of ethics. If a human has aleph-one value, then there is not even a fractional change in value for any finite operation on it. We can't do anything, ethically or otherwise to increase or decrease a human's value.

[thinkdr]

..I'm asking specifically about thinkdr's Value theory of ethics. If a human has aleph-one value, then there is not even a fractional change in value for any finite operation on it. We can't do anything, ethically or otherwise to increase or decrease a human's value.

This is where raising to a negative power comes in, which is the proper way to symbolize a Transposition of Value in the value calculus. See "The Algebra of Value" on pp. 14-15 of ETHICS: A College Course - http://tinyurl.com/24cs9y7

Transposing value does indeed do something to decrease the value of a situation, a component of which may be a human life. It depends upon the specific case as to whether a human is involved in the picture, though In ethical situations one invariably is.

There is more to my theory of Ethics than I reported on here at this site; some further reading and study is required.

[I am looking forward to the day when the value calculus we use now is superrseded by a better one. It will be more extensive and have a capacity to do even more. But, as a mere start, this one is pretty good. It can symbolize some rather complex situations, and it has yielded outputs that were not apparent at first, and were not specifically inputs.]

[Only_Humean]

This is where raising to a negative power comes in, which is the proper way to symbolize a Transposition of Value in the value calculus. See "The Algebra of Value" on pp. 14-15 of ETHICS: A College Course - http://tinyurl.com/24cs9y7

But... you're giving common-language names to mathematical symbols and then deriving facts from them? And seemingly at random, too - I mean, if 1 = Fact, 0 = no Fact. "Indifference" and "fact" are different categories of word.

I think I would need to understand a lot more about what you're trying to do there before going any further, I'm afraid. I'll be away for a couple of weeks; hopefully we can continue the discussion when I get back.

[Arcturus Descending]

Only_Humean wrote:

I don't disagree that maiming people unnecessarily is a bad thing, of course But from the value point of view, why is it bad? A person with a broken arm (or an amputee) is worth no less than a person with two functioning arms, surely?

O_H, is it a 'good' thing maiming them necessarily?

If it's a moral necessity, then yes

Moral necessity? How does morality enter into it? Can you give me an example of 'moral necessity' from your perception?
If we have to fight to defend our self, and we maim someone, either deliberately or inadvertentedly, how is that moral? It might be a necessity, from our point of view, but how is it moral?

From the 'value' point of it, it is not only our own perception that means something - you asked 'why is it bad'? The perception and feelings of the person who was maimed, even necessarily, must be taken into account, no?
Sure, that person becomes no less or more valuable (?) in our eyes because of the maiming - but from his own point of view, if he is not able to use his arm[s] for a little while or ever, well, let me ask you - would you say to him what you said above? Would you inflict that bandaid on him even though you felt you were coming from a good place albeit I do understand your wanting to remind him of that?

I'm asking specifically about thinkdr's Value theory of ethics. If a human has aleph-one value, then there is not even a fractional change in value for any finite operation on it. We can't do anything, ethically or otherwise to increase or decrease a human's value.

I'm not so sure of that. We can be quite unethical in decreasing someone's value. Slander and libel are two ways which come to mind. I understand the sentimental thought that we cannot decrease someone's value - but still, we do it all the time, through our unaware and unconscious actions, creating a devaluation in others and within ourselves. Unfortunately and fortunately, human value is also dependent upon relationships and how we treat one another...our interconnectedness. No man is an island unto himself and human value is not just some kind of ideal within the mind...at least in my book... it comes into existence and has to take shape ALSO through our respect and esteem for one another.

[Only_Humean]

Only_Humean wrote:O_H, is it a 'good' thing maiming them necessarily?

If it's a moral necessity, then yes

Moral necessity? How does morality enter into it? Can you give me an example of 'moral necessity' from your perception?
If we have to fight to defend our self, and we maim someone, either deliberately or inadvertentedly, how is that moral? It might be a necessity, from our point of view, but how is it moral?

Let's say that you have the choice between maiming someone, killing them painfully, or letting them push a bus full of orphans into the tiger enclosure. One might argue that maiming someone is the moral choice.

I'm asking specifically about thinkdr's Value theory of ethics. If a human has aleph-one value, then there is not even a fractional change in value for any finite operation on it. We can't do anything, ethically or otherwise to increase or decrease a human's value.

I'm not so sure of that. We can be quite unethical in decreasing someone's value. Slander and libel are two ways which come to mind. I understand the sentimental thought that we cannot decrease someone's value - but still, we do it all the time, through our unaware and unconscious actions, creating a devaluation in others and within ourselves. Unfortunately and fortunately, human value is also dependent upon relationships and how we treat one another...our interconnectedness. No man is an island unto himself and human value is not just some kind of ideal within the mind...at least in my book... it comes into existence and has to take shape ALSO through our respect and esteem for one another.

[/quote]

As I said, I'm asking specifically about thinkdr's Value theory of ethics. If a human has aleph-one value, then you can't damage it by a finite amount.

[Drusus]

You should know you endulge youself in a very counter productive endevor. In other words you are running a fool's errand in spending time in a irrelevant discussion. Only_Humean you gave me a warning for what you actually should take seriously and heeded. Yet you didn't and now wasted your time.

I must call to question why some people choose to spend exorbiant amount of time, discussing with people who clearly lacks basic cognitive abilities, it's a general phenonemon in life, which results in a general inefficientcy and philosphers should account for such basic thing, now that they are such thinkers who endulge in all aspects of life, not mere ignorents who doesn't do philosophy.

[Only_Humean]

You should know you endulge youself in a very counter productive endevor. In other words you are running a fool's errand in spending time in a irrelevant discussion. Only_Humean you gave me a warning for what you actually should take seriously and heeded. Yet you didn't and now wasted your time.I must call to question why some people choose to spend exorbiant amount of time, discussing with people who clearly lacks basic cognitive abilities, it's a general phenonemon in life, which results in a general inefficientcy and philosphers should account for such basic thing, now that they are such thinkers who endulge in all aspects of life, not mere ignorents who doesn't do philosophy.

I'm quite capable of deciding for myself, thank you.

Your post is irrelevant to the thread subject and potentially inflammatory, please stop trolling.