Why Philosophy and Science is Wrong.

Why Philosophy and Science is Wrong.

We are always in description mode, in denotation mode, in discover the laws, the principles, the patterns mode, we are always abstracting from reality to thoughts and concepts, always putting in words, concepts, formulas, mechanisms in the mind and in the imagination to then plan the future and perform a free will event on reality, to make it go in a certain direction according to theory and such. We are always in logical mode, logic mode, etc. But it is always like a chess game that you will lose, no matter what, it can’t last a trillion years and you will be hosed by some random event outside of your theories always, and this explains why all is relative, all is just a momentary configuration, a momentary situation that will change and contradict all of your ideas no matter what. This also explains the fights and the inequality between items and people and such: each is a configuration wanting to be the only one, or the reference or believing that it is right or whatever, but each is just a random fluke with no one more right or better or more “general” or closer to any “absolute” than any one else, etc. Each is just a temporary event, temporary configuration of Mass Energy and Matter that has nothing more or nothing less than any other chunk of Mass energy, they are all equal, no matter what.

But that is the problem with science and philosophy, it pretends that increasing your knowledge or your theory or your precision or your generalizations (as all language is based on pattern abstraction and generalizations, but generalizations and pattern abstractions are always partially true, partially correlated to reality, whatever reality is since reality doesn’t exist at all) will make you better, superior or unequal to a pebble or to a baby and such. Only partially is this the case and only temporarily, but you lose a configuration by becoming another configuration, you lose knowledge and experiences and possibilities just as much as you gain them by moving on to another configuration, by changing your configuration, but configurations are always changing if only because you are constantly memorizing new data, new histories of yourself and so forth, accumulating new “knowledge” but in all truth, not at all as the law of conservation of knowledge is always operating, you never acquire more, you just acquire different, you just change, you just erase an old configuration in your mind and write a new one in it and such.

This explains why when you are in pain, all of your ideas and past thoughts are worth nothing, since you only need to get out of pain and such (all else is irrelevant and you finally see this). This also explains why any new Mind design is just as valid as any other, any degree of knowledge is just as valid as any other, even a baby knows as much as Einstein since each is just a slab of Matter organized in a certain way and interacting in a certain way with itself and with what is outside of itself (but inside and outside is just an arbitrary definition, it is always just Matter talking to itself, self manipulating itself, it doesn’t matter what delimitation is interacting with what other delimitation as any delimitation is arbitrarily chosen and grouped always according to some scheme in some mind, to some grammer in some mind, to some other generalizations, imaginary generalizations that in all truth never existed, as generalizations, any at all from numbers to words to thought to anything in our mind is fairy tale that makes us feel comfortable, that makes us think that we are on top of it all, when we are just fooling ourselves, just for enough time that Random, Chaotic forces will allow us to fool ourselves, after which our true worth, and all the true value of all our knowledge is revealed, is finally exposed for what it is and that is nothing: a big fat ZERO, no matter how many new and elaborate theories you thought up, no matter how many trillions of years of knowledge and science and philosophy a civilization or a super brain has accumulated, that final little quirk that will break all will occur and your real worth is finally exposed (and even if it its gradual, even if a civilization decomposes in thousands of years, it doesn’t matter, the law of conservation of true value of all is always zero, or infinite or anything you want, etc.), this explains why you can lie and believe in lies and invent any truth you want (just like religions do, etc. and especially economists do as all of their theories is just a huge pile of BS trying to hide the real class warfare going on as Man is fight always just fights itself forever and such), so everything knows everything and nothing, all is achieved and unequal and equal, the pebble knows more than Einstein and such.

This is why a newly designed modifed brain and a newly designed simulated universes - realities that makes Matter perform and undergo new expriences is just as real as anything else, you are free to lie as much as you want, to invent as much as you want, to make it all up, be wild and crazy and you win forever (just as I have finally substituted GOD, I threw him off the thrown once and for all, now I am the most, the top, the infinite, I am the Ultra Mind and wins all forever and such), since it is all true and valid at least within the time span that the joke lasts, at least as long as it lasts, just like a movie, just like a civilization that had a good time or good moment, it was all great and true and valid at least as long as it lasted (maybe our civilization, the Technological Civilization will last 1,000 or 10,000 years before self destroying itself or whatever, so it was all valid and good in that time span), so even if your new brain style lasts for a microsecond and you are GOD for a microsecond, well that universe was valid for that amount of time and such.

But as you can see, even these block of texts are generalizations, are pretending to be more than what they are, are trying to be on top of it all, finding the more general patterns as a path to the more absolute, but all ideas and generalizations are false, irrelevant and worthless as in The Mind Is Always Wrong No Matter What.

And especially, all generalizations, patterns, abstractions pave the way towards religions towards useless pain (as when one tries to find the general laws of how a sociey must behave, we are all sinners and such), or as soon as someone thinks in larger scale terms like (what have I done with my life and such, the denotations, the other mind judging you, or you wanting to be judged as such by another mind, the useless effort in trying to modify the other person’s free will and judgement which will always be arbitrary and a random fluke and always just a causal one point event with no deeper reason than “just because”) all kinds of larger scale ideas, abstractions, then you enter targets denied, a sense of failure, or a sense of problems or a sense of being wrong morally and so forth and you have to do something about it, you are guilty with the guilt complex, and all information (the Information Economy, the Information Age means the Constantly Increasing Never Ending Problems and Conflicts Age, Kill Information and the Internet, erase all information and knowledge, let’s go back to very little communication, no need to know anything) just does exactly this, brings on ever more abstractions, generalizations, models that must be respected, models and targets (but the models are never reached so failure is guaranteed, and conflicts and fights and unhappiness is guaranteed, as more informations means more models and more problems and more targets failed and more conflicts and so forth, and more science means, just like religion more “correct ways” things must be done, or more correct techniques or whatever).

ON a side note, since a Technological Economy kills so many jobs, just repeat the same actions over and over again, repeat the same jobs and the same duties and tasks performed over and over again (like build a skyscraper and then tear it down and build it up all over again forever, or write a book and then erase it all and write it all over again forever, now extend that to all the work that has been done in the last 50 years and let everyone do it all over again or better yet, let new people that don’t know how to do it do it all over again adn take an infinite amount of time and make mistakes, and mistakes will create ever more work, make everything a mess, complicate everything infinitely, millions of new programming languages, systems a total mess, trillions of man hours worked all in vain, but at least being paid and such and so forth) it is easy to create work, So work is infinite just do all over again the the work that a hundred workers did in a year, just keep on doing everything all over again forever, kill memory, freeing knowledge and memory will create an infinite number of jobs and such.

Funny how all the “smart economists” never measure what exactly has been produced by millions of workers, they never reason in terms of accumulation of results, accumulation of outputs, but just in terms of statistics and numbers, concentrated on the process not on the product so to say. But if they would concentrate on the real product of millions of workers worldwide, they would measure a huge amount of negative productivity and waste, since nothing is accumulating, nothing is going forward, most work is just spinning wheels, like Microsoft could have used all their workers for something much more than just writing windows over and over again and such, and Apple writing Apps (which are just good old fashioned programs called with a new name and such) : but if they concentrated on output, they would realize that millions of workers worldwide aren’t producing anything anymore, nay, are not even needed by a Technological Economy, that would imply Free Salaries and Cheap rents for all, and real projects should be devised like rockets and skyscrapers and high speed trains and such, but this would imply that they can’t reinforce the idea that people must fight each other must fight and be “competitive” (another vague word not meaning anything) and also produce nothing at all but fights and conflicts and lawyers and such.

GOD

I saw the title of your thread, and was ready to jump in and comment on what you said - but it was written so poorly, I could not make it through the 2nd paragraph. (I’m sure many would say I’m guilty of the same, when I posted my 31 page philosophy - and I won’t necessarily dispute that - but back to your thread…)

If you’d re-write some of this in easier to digest bits, using sentences instead of word jumbles, I’d be able to consider the merits (or lack thereof) in your argument.

Crossing my fingers.

The Doorman

OF course you can’t “understand it”, how can you understand the MIND OF GOD ?

"I saw the title of your thread, and was ready to jump in and comment ": well then just comment the title, what is written after is irrelevant and won’t give you any other “extra information”…

And learn to create ever more absurd word jumbles, mind jumbles, confuse all…

[b]THE 8 MAN

THE NOTHING AT ALL, THE NEGATIVE GOD, THE ZERO, THE WORTHLESS TURD[/b]

Ball of Grey Matter

So take an Observer, a chunk of Matter that experiences some form of consciousness or life or undergoes experiences or whatever anything that is similar to what we think “Life” is or “Life for Man” is or something like that. Now imagine the Ball of Matter that represents the Observer, now imagine the limits of the size and complexity of the Ball of Matter varying from an Electron Sized Brain to a Star Sized Brain - Observer - Processor - Modified Brain with new wild and wicked, groovy and crazy neural circuits, electronic circuits or explosions or atomic bomb like explosions that are actually thought processes or chunks of thoughts or atom bomb explosions that are letters or words or even just pixels of a complex Super Thought or Super Mind or Super Emotion that are / or many trillions of complex elaborate explosions that are a narrative and part of a very complex and deep experience or feeling or emotion or many other ever higher, trillions of times higher than all of that situations and such wild symbols or / and wild chemicals and chemical reactions happening inside the crazy Ball of Matter representing the Brain and Soul of the “Thinking and Living and Experiencing Being That is Supposedly Alive”.

SO imagine the limits of the universe and the laws it discovers and the engagements that that chunk of matter has with other chunks of matter and such and how the design of the Observer influences (nay, defines, designs a new universe with new laws of physics…) the universe it perceives and interacts with and such: if it is an Electron Sized Brain it can interact within a subset of possible interactions that Matter (or Mass Energy or whatever you want to call the slab of entities we swim within) can have with itself, only a given set of symbols and Information Relationships can be executing by the tiny brain within its environment, it will never know or discover larger scale items and entities, it can’t see the car engine or the skyscraper and such, it can’t conceive or render them in any way with its Possible Information Relationships Set and such. And now imagine a Star Sized Brain, the same applies, it can’t see the skyscraper or car engine or relate to it because its size and design and interaction mode, its dialog of Matter with itself effectively precludes certain configurations and interactions, hence even the awareness of certain laws of physics, of certain worlds and experiences and possibilities and such (it can’t conceive of what it means to run in your backyard or take a swim in an ocean and other things and such).

But then just imagine how many things those brain types can conceive and experience compared to our puny brain and life, and then just imagine how many new ways of engagements with matter and mass energy they can have, with many new and different sense organs and interaction points and such, if the brain has trillions of sense organs and arms so to say or just one, if it interacts through a diffused gas (if it is a diffused gas, or create any possible set of delimitations of groups of entities defining them as in or out or the mind or the body or anything at all) or if it doesn’t even have any concept of what is outside of itself or inside of itself and so forth. Invent all the possible sense organs and interaction points and arms so to say the new Observer, Chunk of Matter undergoing experiences can have, an ocean is a sense organ and a cloud is an arm, a planet is another sense organ and a galaxy is another arm, a car tire is a sense organ and a tv set is another arm, and all of those belong to one Observer, a diffused brain living in a very large volume of space (at least the size of a thousand galaxies) and made up of random contraptions all acting together (or not even together, disjoint and crazy ?) to provide the brain with a lifestyle and Experience Set, a new Universe as Perceived by a new Observer Type and such.

If it is a Galaxy Sized Brain then it can’t discover or use the laws of physics that we use to produce microchips, if it is a Universe Sized Brain it can’t discover, be aware or ever use quantum mechanics or car engines or other different scaled entities and laws and such, if it has only trillions of sense organs and a small processor as a brain it is another kind of entity, if it has only a universe sized memory and abstraction kit, it lives in another kind of universe and so forth, the possibilities are never ending and such.

And if it is a photon then it can’t discover “the speed of light”, nay, the “speed of light” doesn’t even exist, so imagine the limits of all of these possible chunks of matter going from the smallest to the biggest and eveything in between, how many new possible universes and laws of physics are possible ? a never ending.

THUS SPOKE GOD

From:

kunstler.com/blog/2012/12/homeless.html

He goes on talking bad about religion but then in the end proposes another, one he likes:

“I’d say it is better to have no imposed meaning at all than a completely wrong one, even if it makes you feel good about yourself and averts despair. Most people (in America at least) would do better to simply watch less tv, exercise more, talk to their neighbors, and eat better. Religion isn’t going to help them deal with any of their real physical/behavioral problems. In some ways, religious has outlived its real usefulness in our time, though people cling to it because that’s what they know.”

“real physical/behavioral problems” : That is what I mean: why are they “problems” anyways ? The model is imposed that all must conform to, someone decided the model of normality or correct and defined what is a problem and what isn’t. Who says so ? why the comparisons ? who evaluates what is worth more than what, and what is correct and incorrect ?

I would say most people should just watch TV, don’t talk to each other (no one has anything to say to anyone anyways and everyone is a pain in the ass, but you talk on blogs and forums ? contradictions are always present) and forget the imaginary imposed problems everyone has according to an imaginary imposed model that is always an abstraction and arbitrary invention…

tobor

Nameta, threads in the philosophy forum are for the discussion of clear theses, not repositories for rambling. Please state your case, or I’ll move this to MB.

I can’t if he has not completed some equivalent of a high-school level English writing class.

I’ll give it a shot:

While not necessarily accurate, the most memorable definition of Technology I’ve come across is: Anything invented after you were born. And one of the most useful pieces of technology to help you find your way is the Global Positioning System, or GPS. GPS uses satellites to determine your location just about anywhere on the surface of our planet, with an accuracy of just a few feet. A decade ago, older GPS systems were much less accurate, and would put your position up to 50-100 feet from where you actually were. Go back even further in time, and we used an antique GPS system referred to as a “Map”.

This “Map” technology was comparatively lame. First off, they definitely weren’t global; they could barely be classified as Regional Positioning Systems. Not only were they incapable of giving you turn by turn directions on how to reach your destination, they couldn’t even tell you your current location If you found yourself in an unfamiliar area, and weren’t sure exactly where you were at, trying to figure out if you were even looking at the right map can be a chore. If you did happen to be looking at the wrong map, you could forget about trying to find your current location, let alone your destination; you were basically screwed.

But even these antiquated maps were still created using other highly advanced technologies. The distances were all calculated with laser rangefinders, designed on computers, and made using digital printers. . If you think these maps are bad, think again. The farther you wind back the clock, the less technology was available for map makers to use. If you go a mere 400 years back, not only were there no laser range finders to calculate distances, we hadn’t even invented the telescope yet. Wind the clock back another 200 years, and there was no printing press, either. As a matter of fact, all of the maps from this time period represented a flat earth, as we hadn’t discovered the shape of our planet.

But it wasn’t just the shape of our planet we were ignorant about. 500 years ago, not only did we think that the Earth was at the center of the solar system, we thought the Earth was at the center of the entire universe.Our maps have come a long way over the last 500 years. Not surprisingly, the further back you continue to wind time, the less accurate, and less useful the maps become. If you were to try to navigate using any of these old maps, you’d have just as much of a chance of getting lost, as you would of reaching your destination.
So while it’s important to know where you are, where you want to go, and how to get there, it’s equally important to make sure you’re not only using the correct map, but also one that’s up-to-date. Using an outdated or incorrect map can make you think you are somewhere other than where you currently are; it can make you think your destination is in the opposite direction from where it really is; and may lead you into danger along the way, instead of guiding you safely to where you want to go. And this is true whether you’re going on a cross-country road trip, or trying to navigate along the journey of life.

A majority of problems that people run into seems to be a direct consequence of trying to navigate through life with an antiquated map, rather than using a state of the art Global Positioning System. What are you using to help navigate through life? How can you find out whether the map you’re using is even the right one?

Well, science and technology didn’t just make maps of the Earth more accurate; science has begun to map everything from the structure of our universe (physics) to the working of tiny molecules (chemistry); From the inner working of living creatures (biology) to the functioning of the human mind (psychology). While science is not perfect, it is currently the best tool we have for reducing uncertainty about how things really are. One of the biggest problems with science, is that the things it reveals to be true are often different than what people wish to be true. Unfortunately, no amount of belief makes something a fact.

The Doorman

Must 2nd this.

"science has begun to map everything "

But I want to get lost…

So an old man doesn’t really know more than a baby, so a modern civilization doesn’t really know more than a stone age ape tribe and so forth since they are simply two different configurations of Mass Energy, two different Chunks of Matter that interact with themselves (with the external chunks of matter defined as such because of the degree of independence each chunk has compared to another, the degree of surprise and confusion one chunk can have on another and such, but essentially when all of the arbitrary delimitations defining outside and inside, belonging to one chunk as opposed to being part of another chunk is removed, it is all simply Mass Energy and Matter self manipulating itself, talking to itself, it is just a confused and wild chemical reaction and such).

So each chunk of Matter (the old man and the baby) will navigate a series of interactions, will navigate through a path of interactions, will create a narrative, a story and history of a series of changing configurations of Mass Energy, some based on what they think and their “knowledge” and their "memories " or whatever, and the interdictions they have to “overcome” or abide to accordingly and according to their Mind and Will Powers and Thought Processes and such. But they are equivalent, none is better or superior to any other, they are just Matter organized in a certain way and traversing a sequence of configurations, just because, for no other reason then “just because”, “No reason at all”, even though the old man (or older, more “advanced” civilization) thinks he knows so much, thinks his model of the world is correct and he can play the chess game against the random independent forces attacking him better, but in the end, there is nothing better than anything else, each chunk thinks that he is better, nay, the baby is better, he enjoys without thinking, he doesn’t need to know anything, and he is much more wiser than the old man because he directly without all of the imaginary, denotational, target deceived thoughts and emotions the old man has and such.

Economy is based on statistics, large scale “common world” concepts and denotations, imaginary accumulation of results, numbers, it gives the illusion of sequential building of accumulated results through their numbers, unemployment, GDP as if all are working towards ONE GOAL, all is serialized and accumulative, whereas, in all truth each atom of the economy (each person) is simply producing random results, some accumulative, some disjoint, mostly chaotic and the numbers really are just a metaphysical invention, just like religion, but very convenient to make believe that we are all on the same page, we must be more “competitive” or “increase productivity”, when there is really no “we”, just fightings amongst all, since if there really was a “we” then they would try to measure the output of all the office workers worldwide and notice that nothing accumulative and serialized is being produced, just spinning wheels and hot air,and when they see this this just forget all about the large scale measurements, and switch back, no we must be “more productive”, “more competitive” when there is really nothing but fights, etc and no one notices the implied “common goal” ideology behind all of the statistics, and questions it…

But we can extend the idea of serializations and accumulation to all items and entities in the universe and for imaginary accumulation of result and call it a number, a result, a job done, a result achieved and such, the pebble and car are steps in the accumulation of some abstract result, and you and me are working together for an accumulated result, the more abstract and impossible to understand the better and such… all is accumulation or disjoint destructions and all measures in between and such…

Kill the Maps…

APE

Matter Self Manipulates Itself and Creates New Universes

It is hard to accept the concept that a different Observer implies a different Universe and different Laws of Physics, implies a radically different Experience Set the Observer can undergo and such. But that is exactly the case since the Observer is just a slab of Matter, a group of entities that are arranged and acting like ONE, like a unit and interacting with an environment, but the environment that the Observer interacts with is defined by how the Observer is designed, the sense organs, the arms and muscles it has (but I obviously mean way more than these puny examples, way more elaborate and complex sense like organs and arms and such), all of the input and output signals going through the Observer and how it reacts to them, etc. It can easily be imagined that just by changing some of the sense organs, some of the rules of engagement of the input/output signals and impulses and the resulting input/output signals and reactions, the Observer can Experience a completely different Life Form, Experience Set, Information Relationship Set and hence really Universe and Laws of Physics and such so to say.

But even us, we are really all simply a set of point like Observers, a diffused Observer where Matter is conscious of itself only in the points corresponding to Brains (people), we are all and always like particles and points receiving and decoding signals and executing output results and signals that other particles (other people) can decode and interact with, but it is a set of discontinuous points that only amongst themselves and between them, do they perceive and interact with the “Outside” world, all of the intermediate points between them (the outside), all of the land and items between people themselves are dead, are not part of the party, are not conscious and such (since the Observers would have to occupy all space and time and completely saturate all, but such is not the case for us at least, but we can invent hybrids and projections and imagine linear Observers and such merging into the Outside world…), so we are a given organization of Matter that allows us to see and decode and interact according to repetitive patterns that this particular organization of Matter provides us with, but it really essentially provides us with a complete Universe and complete set of Laws of Physics (all illusionary and only locally valid, local is valid for the given local Observer design), even though this is perceived only amongst a few particles of the entire ensemble of Matter (but this perception, for the particles is complete, this perception completely saturates all, it looks completely continuous and real, all the items between people seem to occupy all space and existence - real, we fill in all of the blanks so to say, but it is really much more similar to computers talking to each other through a network thinking that the whole world is only the computers and their network while in reality the whole world is infinite, infinitely more complex and never ending as there are a never ending combination of possible Matter Organizations creating Observers and completely saturating reality (but it only appears to be saturated, a kind of optical illusion, Observers filling in all of the blanks by simply not even being aware of the blanks, just like we are not aware of how arbitrary our Brain and neural networks are (and therefore our entire decoding of reality and our entire experience of life as conditioned by this), we take them for granted as being an absolute and the measure of all when in fact they are just one quirky number amongst a never ending set of numbers)), but radically different Universes and Experiences and such, only a very small volume of the Matter is really participating in this Movie, in the decoding and Universe and instantiated “Laws of Physics”, all other items are dead or unknown or part of the outside or are the Objects of the Subjects and such.

So given a new configuration of Matter expressing new Observers, imagine new interdictions and delimitation sets, new laws of engagements that Matter expresses by talking to itself through this new configuration, those Observers are really in a new Universe, 100 % different universe in a sense infinitely far away from us, we have no possible point of contact unless we become somewhat like those new Observers and such. Imagine Matter creating a slab of Iron that decodes and interacts through a wild and crazy contraption and very complex elaborate description of Outside reality (it doesn’t matter how wild and invented it is, all is invented and fake when Matter becomes “alive”, Matter lies to itself always when it starts talking to itself, so any invention any simulated Universe, no matter how far out, anything, no matter how far out is real and true as reality is expressed through the interdictions Matter imposes upon itself as the chunks behaving as the Observers navigate the configurations of Matter according to what interdictions are being invented and imposed upon it).

But the word Matter here really means any Symbol Set, an Entity Set that can talk to itself, and in fact even Matter and Mass Energy don’t really exist, only Information Relationships exist so to say, and no matter what I say or any Man Brain says, it is always a very local and partial reality, just a reality according to that one Observer type, nothing more general or deeper than that, so the Laws of Physics and the Universe really don’t exist, only a given interpretation and organization of symbols in an arbitrary Mind of an Arbitrary Observer trying to fool itself that it is Absolute and real and valid in all cases, trying to fill in all of the blanks, trying to saturate all possibilities and reality with a few puny items it perceives and interacts with according to his tiny puny Brain, but it is just a quirk, an invention and such.

THUS SPOKE THE ULTRA MIND

You are making me thing James S Saint is your sane alter ego.

Check out:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=181125

also:

instantsingularity1.blogspot.it/

instantsingularity3.blogspot.it/

instantsingularity.blogspot.it/

GOD

I think he’s challenging you to make good on this…

Hi nameta9,

Your thoughts are bit fragmented but it does not mean that those do not have any value. I must say that those are more honest than many well drafted ones and i appriciate that.

I think that the crux of your thoughts is this-

I can well understand your mindset. This is an honest and precise observation.

I do not know much about your perceptions but this is the very moment where the real quest for the knowing take place. If one cannot realize this, he cannot realize anything else. We are different form our acquired perceptions.

As i found it, there are two ways of acquiring knowledge. One is looking at it standing by and the second is permeating with it.

Science follows the first one strictly. Philosophy also prefers the first route over the second in geneal, but not in totality. Contrary to the general perception, the real philosophy lies in the second way of knowing. If one cannot imbue with the knowledge, he cannot know it. Without this process, what one is able to know is litrature only, not philosophy. And, more often than not, now a days, we are seeing litrature in the name of philosophy. That is the only reason that after the era of Kant and Hume, we are able to produce only one philospher of such category, who would be always remembered; wittgenstein.

Religions, it true sense, follow the second route only. But, even they do not find many takers now. Once again, the litrature has been taken over the empericism.

with love,
sanjay

From:

kunstler.com/blog/2012/12/christmas-story.html

Bustin Jay, look at how many cars they’re selling in China! cool, atmosphere is being killed, kill it, go man go, kill nature, cool, this is Matter playing with itself, cool. Imagine all thoses cars, all those engines CO2 in the air forever, cool, all you greenies are doomed, we won, we win, those who want to be the boss of nature have won, I have won, there, you see, I win and you loose, cool go man go…

bestsellingcarsblog.com/2012/12/ … more-25847

1 Ford Focus 38,362 1 259,492 2 9

2 VW Lavida 31,697 2 226,651 4 2

3 Chevrolet Sail 26,143 6 258,626 3 6

4 VW Passat 23,910 3 224,678 5 12

5 Buick Excelle 23,381 4 261,240 1 1

6 VW Sagitar 22,886 5 177,251 11 25

7 Chevrolet Cruze 22,216 7 216,573 7 3

And it goes on and on, the list keeps on going on.

Anyways, if JHK wants to really talk about DOOM and real Resource Scarcity in a sense, he should really change topics and concentrate on Climate Change and Global Warming, that is where the action is, that will break everything long before we run out of oil (and besides we can use Natural Gas to run cars, there is a glut of that!)

8 MAN

Check out:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=181125

8 tobors

The first reply was coherent if poorly-written. The later stuff not even related.

Moved to MB.