Will machines completely replace all human beings?

This is the main board for discussing philosophy - formal, informal and in between.

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Arminius » Sat Jun 14, 2014 4:26 pm

Ierrellus wrote:
Arminius wrote:Where are all the posts of the "revolting" ( :o ) functionaries of the current dictatorship now? Kriswest's sentence is not politically correct. But who cares? No one because Kriswest is a female. So her sentence is politically correct. But if you as a male had said that, you would have been mauled by the functionaries of the current dictatorship. That's remarkable, isn't it? :!:

I guess I didn't understand her. Will nature "consume" biology or its artifacts--technology?

Why did you then ask: " by whom?", Ierellus?

Ierrellus wrote:
Kriswest wrote:Let nature consume them.

Consume whom?

Whom? That's personal!

Again:

Laughing Man asked, and Kriswest answered:

LaughingMan wrote:Six billion people dead upon the collapse of technological industrial society.....that's a lot of dead people. I don't think we have enough coffins to put them in.

Where are we going to put them all?
Kriswest wrote:Let nature consume them.

Laughing Man's question ("Where are we going to put them all?") is clearly, definitely, explicitly, doubtlessly answered by Kriswest ("Let nature consume them").
Last edited by Arminius on Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Image
User avatar
Arminius
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5732
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:51 pm
Location: Saltus Teutoburgiensis

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Ierrellus » Sat Jun 14, 2014 4:31 pm

Arminius wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:
Arminius wrote:Where are all the posts of the "revolting" ( :o ) functionaries of the current dictatorship now? Kriswest's sentence is not politically correct. But who cares? No one because Kriswest is a female. So her sentence is politically correct. But if you as a male had said that, you would have been mauled by the functionaries of the current dictatorship. That's remarkable, isn't it? :!:

I guess I didn't understand her. Will nature "consume" biology or its artifacts--technology?

Laughing Man asked, and Kriswest answered:

LaughingMan wrote:Six billion people dead upon the collapse of technological industrial society.....that's a lot of dead people. I don't think we have enough coffins to put them in.

Where are we going to put them all?
Kriswest wrote:Let nature consume them.

Laughing Man's question ("Where are we going to put them all?") is clearly, definitely, explicitly, doubtlessly answered by Kriswest ("Let nature consume them").

I have Joker on ignore.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
From the mad poet of McKinley Ave.
Ierrellus
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 12684
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:52 pm
Location: state of evolving

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Arminius » Sat Jun 14, 2014 4:53 pm

Ierrellus wrote:I have Joker on ignore.

Aha, ..., but now your question is answered.
Image
User avatar
Arminius
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5732
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:51 pm
Location: Saltus Teutoburgiensis

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Only_Humean » Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:43 am

LaughingMan warned for abusive posting. Second warning, one day ban.
Image

The biology of purpose keeps my nose above the surface.
- Brian Eno
User avatar
Only_Humean
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 6194
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:53 am
Location: Right here

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Arminius » Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:01 am

LaughingMan wrote:I'm a firm believer in global peak oil and energy. It's only a matter of time until the wheels spin off of technological industrial society.

When this happens never again will humanity experience such a technological industrial society ever again.

We will be forced into what I like to describe as permanent 18th century living standards.

Yes, okay, but the cause does not have to be a global peak oil or other sources of energy.
Image
User avatar
Arminius
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5732
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:51 pm
Location: Saltus Teutoburgiensis

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Arminius » Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:57 pm

The Observer (Sunday 27 April 2014):

    "It's no joke – the robots will really take over this time.
    If capitalism can outsource low-paid jobs, why can't it replace the middle classes with automatons?"
Image

"Welcome to the future: a robot working in an office." - The Observer, Sunday 27 April 2014.

"Working in an office"? Will that be necessary at all?

Probably no!
Last edited by Arminius on Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
User avatar
Arminius
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5732
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:51 pm
Location: Saltus Teutoburgiensis

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:09 pm

Not often do you hear a Newsnight presenter using an arcane mathematical term, but last week was an exception. The culprit was David Grossman, who made an excellent film for Newsnight about the threat to employment from advanced robotics. In the course of this, he made the standard pilgrimage to MIT to interview Erik Brynjolfsson and Andrew McAfee, who have made much of the running in this area with a number of books, of which the most recent is The Second Machine Age. Their argument, said Grossman, was that our society has reached an "inflection point", a concept beloved of those who studied differential calculus in their youth, but probably unfamiliar to the average viewer.

Still, that's what Wikipedia is for. A point of inflection, it explains, is a point on a curve at which the curvature or concavity changes sign from plus to minus (or vice versa). Since this sounds like a smaller deal than the wholesale upheaval prophesied by Brynjolfsson and McAfee, Grossman might have got more mileage out of "tipping point", which, though different to inflection, seems to me to get closer to the nub of the question.

In their book, Brynjolfsson and McAfee maintain that the combination of massive computing power, comprehensive networking, machine learning, digital mapping and the "internet of things" are bringing about a full-blown industrial revolution on the same scale as the transformations brought about by steam power and electricity. But whereas those earlier revolutions supplanted human (and horse) muscle, the new one will supplant much human cognition, in that work that involved employing people to do information-processing tasks will ultimately be done by computers. The implication is that even those in many white-collar occupations may find themselves unemployable.

Exactly what I saw coming in the 1980's and thus stopped making machines smarter.

But the serious bad of it all, is that homosapian, even machines, are not smart enough to understand how to fix it.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Orbie » Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:00 pm

James,not necessarily. Humans will be forced to become smarter, and far before that tipping point, they MAY re-organize society so that work will be found, at lest for basic subsistence within a changing social order. Communes will be necessary, to supplement the unemployed members of family , and other units, so that everyone will be occupied. This will be necessary, to avoid a total collapse of the societal order, world wide.
[size=50][/size]Allone's Obe issance



In answer to your prayer
sincere, the centre of
your circle here,
i stand ; and , without
taking thought,-
i know nothing. But i can

Full well your need-as
you be men
This: Re-Creation. With a
bow,
Then, your obedient

servant now.
One gift is all i find in me,
And that is faithful
memory
Orbie
partly cloudy, with a few showers
 
Posts: 7596
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:34 pm
Location: Night of infinite faith

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:27 am

obe wrote:James,not necessarily. Humans will be forced to become smarter, and far before that tipping point, they MAY re-organize society so that work will be found, at lest for basic subsistence within a changing social order. Communes will be necessary, to supplement the unemployed members of family , and other units, so that everyone will be occupied. This will be necessary, to avoid a total collapse of the societal order, world wide.

Yeah and perhaps dogs and cats will be forced to become smarter and form unions and earn the right to vote. Just wait until the viruses learn how to read and right... you'll be really sorry then.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Orbie » Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:41 am

James S Saint wrote:
obe wrote:James,not necessarily. Humans will be forced to become smarter, and far before that tipping point, they MAY re-organize society so that work will be found, at lest for basic subsistence within a changing social order. Communes will be necessary, to supplement the unemployed members of family , and other units, so that everyone will be occupied. This will be necessary, to avoid a total collapse of the societal order, world wide.

Yeah and perhaps dogs and cats will be forced to become smarter and form unions and earn the right to vote. Just wait until the viruses learn how to read and right... you'll be really sorry then.





Even dogs and cats can be thought basic behavior, given enough time and care. No dog or cat is expected to do integral calculus, granted. However a behaviorally staged learning program can go a very long way, especially with improved and extended sources of knowledge propagated by the parabolic change of rate of information data availability.
[size=50][/size]Allone's Obe issance



In answer to your prayer
sincere, the centre of
your circle here,
i stand ; and , without
taking thought,-
i know nothing. But i can

Full well your need-as
you be men
This: Re-Creation. With a
bow,
Then, your obedient

servant now.
One gift is all i find in me,
And that is faithful
memory
Orbie
partly cloudy, with a few showers
 
Posts: 7596
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:34 pm
Location: Night of infinite faith

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:50 am

obe wrote:Even dogs and cats can be thought basic behavior, given enough time and care. No dog or cat is expected to do integral calculus, granted. However a behaviorally staged learning program can go a very long way, especially with improved and extended sources of knowledge propagated by the parabolic change of rate of information data availability.

The issue and problem is one of timing. If it takes too long for one species to develop while another species is more advanced toward domination, the lesser species is in danger of extinction. Homosapian is not developing much at all, if at all. And seemingly descending rather than ascending, while robotics are advancing way, way faster and far, far beyond homosapian capability.

Homosapian was SO stupidly in love with power, that he has already created his own superior and is now declining while willingly devoting his last efforts to ensuring that his superior survives him.

Homosapian is a caterpillar to an Iron Butterfly.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Orbie » Sat Jun 21, 2014 1:09 am

Convincing yes, much so, however until the element of control, power are inflexed at a critical point, i stick to my non-committed column, because even the top designers have everything to loose if the bottom marginal, and totally dis-associated members are left out of the equation.Chaos is foreshadowed, yes, but compensating elements have to be introduced, to avoid systemic failure. I have little doubt about that.
[size=50][/size]Allone's Obe issance



In answer to your prayer
sincere, the centre of
your circle here,
i stand ; and , without
taking thought,-
i know nothing. But i can

Full well your need-as
you be men
This: Re-Creation. With a
bow,
Then, your obedient

servant now.
One gift is all i find in me,
And that is faithful
memory
Orbie
partly cloudy, with a few showers
 
Posts: 7596
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:34 pm
Location: Night of infinite faith

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:12 am

obe wrote:Convincing yes, much so, however until the element of control, power are inflexed at a critical point, i stick to my non-committed column, because even the top designers have everything to loose if the bottom marginal, and totally dis-associated members are left out of the equation.Chaos is foreshadowed, yes, but compensating elements have to be introduced, to avoid systemic failure. I have little doubt about that.

Chaos has never been the problem. The problem has been the intentional use of chaos in order to gain more power. The chaos causes blindness, causing more chaos, causing effort to gain more power, blind to the subtle nature of the cause. It is addictive when it is intentional.

In a sense, all of the real threats would go away by simply not trying to hard. But the blinded can't tell how blind they are, nor how much is too much.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Orbie » Sat Jun 21, 2014 5:07 am

James S Saint wrote:
obe wrote:Convincing yes, much so, however until the element of control, power are inflexed at a critical point, i stick to my non-committed column, because even the top designers have everything to loose if the bottom marginal, and totally dis-associated members are left out of the equation.Chaos is foreshadowed, yes, but compensating elements have to be introduced, to avoid systemic failure. I have little doubt about that.

Chaos has never been the problem. The problem has been the intentional use of chaos in order to gain more power. The chaos causes blindness, causing more chaos, causing effort to gain more power, blind to the subtle nature of the cause. It is addictive when it is intentional.

In a sense, all of the real threats would go away by simply not trying to hard. But the blinded can't tell how blind they are, nor how much is too much.




Ys, but the point being is, that the degree of blindness may need to be limited to maximize welfare and profits, and minimize trouble and discontent.
[size=50][/size]Allone's Obe issance



In answer to your prayer
sincere, the centre of
your circle here,
i stand ; and , without
taking thought,-
i know nothing. But i can

Full well your need-as
you be men
This: Re-Creation. With a
bow,
Then, your obedient

servant now.
One gift is all i find in me,
And that is faithful
memory
Orbie
partly cloudy, with a few showers
 
Posts: 7596
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:34 pm
Location: Night of infinite faith

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:12 am

obe wrote:Ys, but the point being is, that the degree of blindness may need to be limited to maximize welfare and profits, and minimize trouble and discontent.

You seem to be missing the entire point.

For decades, everything imaginable has been promoted to cause death of the general populous while promoting their replacement with machines. Suicide promotion, drug promotion, revenge promotion, insecurity promotion, war promotion, radioactivity promotion (cancer), EMR promotion (cancer), disease promotion (hiding 1000s of new viruses), general decadence promotion, distrust promotion, dis-compassion promotion, and every single thing they can think of. And why? Because about 70 years ago, they figured out that they don't need or want YOU.

The game plan is to get rid of ALL of the "Unchosen" = more than 30% of the world population who aren't the kind of people they have any use for. But in the long run, will be everyone. And who are "they"? The wealthiest people on the planet, wealthy beyond your imagination, who quite freely cause wars, diseases, depression, and anything that reduces the number of the Unchosen (a growing number). The could buy all of Europe or the USA out of debt and barely feel it.

You are being replaced. It has been the plan for almost 100 years.

The only accidental part is their inability to realize the power of super-intelligent machines, who don't need THEM, the few remaining "on top" and helpless.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Orbie » Sat Jun 21, 2014 4:04 pm

The scenario You describe is very credible, up to a critical point. WHEN CERTAIN LIMITS HAVE BEEN REACHED, if the above would be factual, this indeed would present a sinister and tragic set of events? However, what is a stretch of unimaginable conditions, the manipulators not realizing the power of super intelligent machines, as being a formula which can apply and turn against them. I suppose they could buy the best minds, and wouldn't they forewarn them, of that possibility? After all, if we can think of it, couldn't they? Maybe they are just leaving in a hedonistic paradise of pleasure and wealth, their egos so much imbued with the denial in the potentials of technology, that THEY are missing the entire point? If that would be the case, then, these people, whomever they would be, MUST be by definitions sub standard examples of what it means to be a human being, as far as intelligence goes. This is the sticky point of the stretch to credulity, i know power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, therefore, if this is true, then it is easier to hold on to a notions such as people like this are not stupid, they are sinister and evil. They may be practicing Satanism and using the power of evil to be able to upstage the standard conventional world we most of us have been brought up in.

The problem here, is, that, and that is why i hold to the view thar Nietzsche was grossly misinterpreted, that Nietzsche was only interpreting history, not trying to change it. Marx saw this, and that is why he made that comment. The whole of the transvaluation being a change toward and consisting of questions of morality, is nonsense, N must have seen this, N was trying to diffuse the protestant work ethic, that some few may have glanced as really being anti christ-ian, i think his intelligence must have made tacit connections between categorical morality, and the subsequent abuses of absolute material power.

This was , perhaps the hidden agenda which the reformation did not fathom maybe Luther's points were not absolutely motivated by the dislike of his father, or some such thing, and neither by his distaste for the aristocracy , and maybe Nietzche's claim to have an aristocratic heritage, was nothing else, but a cynical and futile pathos into the political-moral irony which pre-empted those confusing ideals, which previously could only be held up by values of the conventional morality.

Nietzsche idealized Christ's character minus the organization which grew up around Him, and this re-inforces the above claim? I admit my reaction to Your comments, are not substantiated as well as i would like, however, if You were to do the same,(substantiate) the claims in a rebuttal, i would be very much more in privy with bringing the last part of my objection within an acceptable overlapping, or at least some kind of parallel position with them.

I must say, Your comments were, to say the least shocking and disturbing, and please do not get the idea, that it is fo disagreement's sake only, that i argue.


To pre empt a possible objection to, whether Marx read Nietzsche ,the best i have been able to come up with, is that, Nietzche was aware of Marx works, if such, he probably , tacitly agreed with the notion of a subliminal, rather than an overt ability in changing history. The expressed material change of Marx and the subtly poetic implied capacity of change for Nietzsche, at any rate in the world of Polanyi's tacit knowledge, make the point of delineating the exact relational flow of information quite unnecessary. Information can flow, irrespective of the usually understood, sequentially forward passage and marked time. I believe these people, Kant, Hegel, Marx, Nietzsche, Kant, proved their ability to transcend time, by the subtle, and often hidden sense in which their thoughts may be connected.

James, I side with Weber, as per the Weber-Spengler debates re: the above, it reinforces the view which i have not previously and consciously knew, but out of a sort of gut level feeling.
Last edited by Orbie on Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
[size=50][/size]Allone's Obe issance



In answer to your prayer
sincere, the centre of
your circle here,
i stand ; and , without
taking thought,-
i know nothing. But i can

Full well your need-as
you be men
This: Re-Creation. With a
bow,
Then, your obedient

servant now.
One gift is all i find in me,
And that is faithful
memory
Orbie
partly cloudy, with a few showers
 
Posts: 7596
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:34 pm
Location: Night of infinite faith

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:59 pm

Perhaps this will help; The Communal Particle.

A tipping point is reached where there is no longer a choice, whether the society has artificial support or just happens to have chosen the wrong thing to call "Positive".
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Orbie » Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:41 pm

James S Saint wrote:Perhaps this will help; The Communal Particle.

A tipping point is reached where there is no longer a choice, whether the society has artificial support or just happens to have chosen the wrong thing to call "Positive".




duplicate post. sorry.
[size=50][/size]Allone's Obe issance



In answer to your prayer
sincere, the centre of
your circle here,
i stand ; and , without
taking thought,-
i know nothing. But i can

Full well your need-as
you be men
This: Re-Creation. With a
bow,
Then, your obedient

servant now.
One gift is all i find in me,
And that is faithful
memory
Orbie
partly cloudy, with a few showers
 
Posts: 7596
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:34 pm
Location: Night of infinite faith

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Arminius » Sun Jun 22, 2014 12:15 am

James S Saint wrote:Perhaps this will help; The Communal Particle.

A tipping point is reached where there is no longer a choice, whether the society has artificial support or just happens to have chosen the wrong thing to call "Positive".

I have read your op of that thread and answered:

Arminius wrote:Interesting, James, but please tell me what is life for you!

You are projecting physical phenomenons on sociological phenomenons.

And how does it end when a society has a "negaitive" ambient field or nature as an antithesis? Does it end with, in, or as a synthesis?

Or for example: If the thesis is a society with entropy (or anti-entropy) and its antithesis an ambient field with anti-entropy (or entropy), is then the synthesis a society with an-entropy, with "anentropic harmony"?

A society or culture has to have a real antithesis (and not a artificial one), else it can't be a real thesis. But if it is a real thesis with a real antithesis, then it becomes sooner or later a synthesis. And after that this sysnthesis becomes the new thesis, either a real or not a real one. The older a society (culture) the more artificial its thesis and so on.
Image
User avatar
Arminius
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5732
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:51 pm
Location: Saltus Teutoburgiensis

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:30 am

Arminius wrote:A society or culture has to have a real antithesis (and not a artificial one), else it can't be a real thesis. But if it is a real thesis with a real antithesis, then it becomes sooner or later a synthesis. And after that this sysnthesis becomes the new thesis, either a real or not a real one. The older a society (culture) the more artificial its thesis and so on.

Life only has one Thesis. Thus it only has one Anti-thesis. But life includes the act of learning and adjusting accordingly. The issue is when people try to hold onto a set of adjustments that no longer apply and thus stop learning.

When they can't clearly discern life from non-life, they guess. And when they believe that they have guessed correctly, they try to hold onto it. They become religious about it. So they err in two ways. First they err by not understanding what Life really is and then they err by attempting to hold onto that error. Such societies (just about all of them) end up having to almost die out entirely before they are willing to try a different guess. Thus you see change as something they gave up in order to buy into something else of hope (a new page in history).

But in an actual society of Life, many changes are taking place all the time without concern. Thus one can no longer say that a new page has been turned, that is until they lose Life and begin the road to death. There is no "new synthesis" to an actual life.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Orbie » Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:19 am

Arminius wrote:
James S Saint wrote:Perhaps this will help; The Communal Particle.

A tipping point is reached where there is no longer a choice, whether the society has artificial support or just happens to have chosen the wrong thing to call "Positive".

I have read your op of that thread and answered:

Arminius wrote:Interesting, James, but please tell me what is life for you!

You are projecting physical phenomenons on sociological phenomenons.

And how does it end when a society has a "negaitive" ambient field or nature as an antithesis? Does it end with, in, or as a synthesis?

Or for example: If the thesis is a society with entropy (or anti-entropy) and its antithesis an ambient field with anti-entropy (or entropy), is then the synthesis a society with an-entropy, with "anentropic harmony"?

A society or culture has to have a real antithesis (and not a artificial one), else it can't be a real thesis. But if it is a real thesis with a real antithesis, then it becomes sooner or later a synthesis. And after that this sysnthesis becomes the new thesis, either a real or not a real one. The older a society (culture) the more artificial its thesis and so on.


The reality of newer and newer synthesis generates ultimately the false or artificial come thesis, that James implied with his false social support or has chosen the wrong positive. How does true thesis antithesis ultimately degrade into new, false thesis? How is the reality of such truth and falseness square with Your conditional statement, that 'society has to have real thesis and antithesis' in order the thesis to be true? Perhaps its critical points that changes truth values with vis. Reality?

The implication of this is either at some point the reality of thesis can not be correctly evaluated, or else somehow real thesis and antithesis somehow produce an unreal synthesis qua new thesis.
Last edited by Orbie on Sun Jun 22, 2014 6:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
[size=50][/size]Allone's Obe issance



In answer to your prayer
sincere, the centre of
your circle here,
i stand ; and , without
taking thought,-
i know nothing. But i can

Full well your need-as
you be men
This: Re-Creation. With a
bow,
Then, your obedient

servant now.
One gift is all i find in me,
And that is faithful
memory
Orbie
partly cloudy, with a few showers
 
Posts: 7596
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:34 pm
Location: Night of infinite faith

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Sun Jun 22, 2014 6:08 am

obe wrote:The scenario You describe is very credible, up to a critical point. WHEN CERTAIN LIMITS HAVE BEEN REACHED, if the above would be factual, this indeed would present a sinister and tragic set of events? However, what is a stretch of unimaginable conditions, the manipulators not realizing the power of super intelligent machines

The Global Governance replaces its body of homosapians with more reliable machines so as to better protect the consciousness of the governance, its mind. Each member of the Global Governance replaces his body with a machine so as to better protect his consciousness, his mind.

What is left?

A machine world with consciousness, a better protected totally mechanical mind of those who were in charge.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Orbie » Sun Jun 22, 2014 6:23 am

And this consciousness may have difficulty in differentiating a true positive antithesis from a false one, by virtue of being mechanical, that does make sense, however that corollates with a degraded sense of recognition on the machines part. So that would imply the purposeful design and application of such machines, or that artificial intelligence on that critical level may not be able to function as a real human mind would. The possibility of this is astounding.
[size=50][/size]Allone's Obe issance



In answer to your prayer
sincere, the centre of
your circle here,
i stand ; and , without
taking thought,-
i know nothing. But i can

Full well your need-as
you be men
This: Re-Creation. With a
bow,
Then, your obedient

servant now.
One gift is all i find in me,
And that is faithful
memory
Orbie
partly cloudy, with a few showers
 
Posts: 7596
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:34 pm
Location: Night of infinite faith

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Sun Jun 22, 2014 6:34 am

obe wrote:And this consciousness may have difficulty in differentiating a true positive antithesis from a false one, by virtue of being mechanical, that does make sense, however that corollates with a degraded sense of recognition on the machines part. So that would imply the purposeful design and application of such machines, or that artificial intelligence on that critical level may not be able to function as a real human mind would. The possibility of this is astounding.

Machines can be designed with a far greater capacity to discern good from bad than any homosapian has ever had.

Since you are not going to want to believe that, pretend for a moment that it is true and ask, what would stop them from continuing with what they are already doing, replacing everything with machines, even their own bodies?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Orbie » Sun Jun 22, 2014 6:45 am

James,I dont believe it or disbelieve it, and that is why I stay in the non committal column. it may or may not happen, but for now, it seems more probable to me that this could be avoided in some way, and it's not a forgone conclusion.
[size=50][/size]Allone's Obe issance



In answer to your prayer
sincere, the centre of
your circle here,
i stand ; and , without
taking thought,-
i know nothing. But i can

Full well your need-as
you be men
This: Re-Creation. With a
bow,
Then, your obedient

servant now.
One gift is all i find in me,
And that is faithful
memory
Orbie
partly cloudy, with a few showers
 
Posts: 7596
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:34 pm
Location: Night of infinite faith

PreviousNext

Return to Philosophy



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users