Does "unfree will" exist?

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Does "unfree will" exist?

Postby pharaoh » Mon Aug 18, 2014 4:14 am

[i]Using the term "free will", whether by its advocates or its opponents, denotes the concept of "unfree will" in contrast.
If, by any chance, there is no unfree will, and what all the "will"s in the world can be, is free, then there is no need to argue whether there is "free will" or not. In that case, what may be in question is if there is a will or not, since a "will" is inherently taken to be free.
On the other hand, if there are such distinctive concepts as "free will" and "unfree will", however, they should naturally have distinctive properties, too, differentiating them from one another.
Suppose you decide to cross the street; who is going to tell if that is an example of a free will or an unfree one, and by what criteria?
One thing worth mentioning here, is that if someone forces you into doing that, at gun point, it cannot be considered an example of an unfree will, unless you call all "will"s unfree, since it is a normal cause and effect process which is not essentially any different from other cause and effect processes that take place in decision making, but might not look as evident.
If[i] you decide
to cross the street at gun point, 1. you know why you have made such a decision; and 2. you most probably are not very interested to do so.
On the other hand, if you decide to cross the street where there're no guns, 1. you may not be quite sure what your ultimate cause would be, and 2. most of the time, you might not feel much dislike to do so. These differences are not enough to make for such dramatic distinction.
If you can never tell the true difference, however, why should you be so happy about having a philosophically free will (in contrast to a common"free will", meaning "you are free to do whatever you like to, or you deem necessary".)
It is ok, if you say you stick to any idea, whether right or wrong, as long as it gives you comfort, but what if the sum of the consequences of having such notion proves the contrary?
Still, my main questions are:
1. Is it possible to practically make a distinction between a free will and an "unfree will"(if it exists)?
2. On the assumption that there are no "unfree will"s, why should one use the term "free will"? [/i][/i]
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Re: Does "unfree will" exist?

Postby Ben JS » Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:55 am

pharaoh wrote:Does "unfree will" exist?


Will - deliberate intention or wish -

Assuming this definition, I think it's very clear that people do indeed have a will.

As a hard determinist, I say that the will people possess is not free, rather a product of past conditions set in motion before one existed.

pharaoh wrote:Is it possible to practically make a distinction between a free will and an "unfree will"(if it exists)?


There's a distinct difference between free will and determinism ('unfree will') and there's reason to make the distinction.

Free will attributes the individual as the sole author and cause of the will, thus credits the individual entirely for the results of said will - good or bad.

Determinism attributes a range of factors internally and externally that shape the individual (including their will), thus does not credit the individual entirely for a result, instead focuses on the degree any which influence contributed to the result.

=

Sam Harris gave an example relating to this -

A man went on a shooting massacre that killed and injured many people. Before going on the massacre, the man wrote a note asking that his body be studied because he couldn't understand why he had these urges to be violent, when beyond these urges, he lived a normal healthy life.

After his death at the scene of the crime, his body was taken to be autopsied. The medical examination uncovered a tumor that was inside the man's brain. It was growing in an area involved in decision making and impulse control.

It is believed that the tumor influenced an otherwise healthy human being, to commit an atrocity. The man didn't cause the tumor to grow, nor did he have awareness of it's influence or existence. Initially the man was portrayed as 'evil', yet in light of the medical examination, he was considered more of a victim than perpetrator.

=

To hold someone to account for something beyond their control - to punish them for being shaped into something undesirable by factors beyond their control, doesn't make sense.

It also isn't just, reasonable or fair.

Free will misrepresents reality, and thereby perpetuates ignorance and mistakes due to that ignorance.

The current legal system is a prime example of perpetuating ignorance.
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Re: Does "unfree will" exist?

Postby Amorphos » Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:38 pm

Neither exist. The scientists never tell you what consciousness is doing both in and of itself, or in response to input. If the consciousness is doing something in here, rather than hanging around taking orders, then whatever that something is, is making effect.

Ergo one party affects the other and vice-versa. One is the party of the whole [consciousness], the other of the parts [= physical brain [non-conscious part at least], then one which experiences and responds, and that which is lit the instrument of input [is a biological instrument being utilised by a consciousness].

50/50% relationship but both exist for the one.
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Re: Does "unfree will" exist?

Postby cheegster » Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:09 pm

ANOTHER free will post? This is getting out of hand.
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Re: Does "unfree will" exist?

Postby James S Saint » Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:30 am

cheegster wrote:ANOTHER free will post? This is getting out of hand.

It was out of hand 200 years ago.

will 1 (wl)
n.
1.
a. The mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action: championed freedom of will against a doctrine of predetermination.
b. The act of exercising the will.
2.
a. Diligent purposefulness; determination: an athlete with the will to win.
b. Self-control; self-discipline: lacked the will to overcome the addiction.
3. A desire, purpose, or determination, especially of one in authority: It is the sovereign's will that the prisoner be spared.
4. Deliberate intention or wish
in·vol·un·tar·y (n-vln-tr)
adj.
1. Acting or done without or against one's will: an involuntary participant in what turned out to be an argument.
2. Not subject to control of the volition: gave an involuntary start.
free (fr)
adj. fre·er, fre·est
1. Not imprisoned or enslaved; being at liberty.
2. Not controlled by obligation or the will of another: felt free to go.
3.
a. Having political independence: "America . . . is the freest and wealthiest nation in the world" (Rudolph W. Giuliani).
b. Governed by consent and possessing or granting civil liberties: a free citizenry.
c. Not subject to arbitrary interference by a government: a free press.
4.
a. Not affected or restricted by a given condition or circumstance: a healthy animal, free of disease; free from need.
b. Not subject to a given condition; exempt: income that is free of all taxes.
5. Not subject to external restraint:
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Does "unfree will" exist?

Postby Mr Reasonable » Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:59 am

Some things are determined. Some things you can choose. You can choose to stand on train tracks, but you can't choose to not get hit by a train in doing so.

The End.
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Re: Does "unfree will" exist?

Postby Ben JS » Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:44 am

Free will - the ability of agents to make choices unconstrained by certain factors. + freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

Free (As quoted by James) -

a. Not affected or restricted by a given condition or circumstance: a healthy animal, free of disease; free from need.
b. Not subject to a given condition; exempt: income that is free of all taxes.
5. Not subject to external restraint:

====
====

To the other posters -

cheegster wrote:ANOTHER free will post? This is getting out of hand.

What's your issue with discussing free will?

Are you challenged by it, yet have no defense?

James wrote:It was out of hand 200 years ago.

Discussing an issue is a problem to you also?

Perhaps a philosophy forum is the wrong place for you.

-

The definitions you posted do not answer the questions raised by the OP.

Nor are they an argument for or against the issue.

Smears wrote:The End.

Unfortunately for you, stating something doesn't make it true, furthermore, it's an unpersuasive and lazy form of argument.
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Re: Does "unfree will" exist?

Postby cheegster » Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:22 pm

Ben JS wrote:What's your issue with discussing free will?

Are you challenged by it, yet have no defense?


Sorry, don't mean to derail your topic.

Just...there's probably over a hundred topics on this now on this forum.
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Re: Does "unfree will" exist?

Postby Mr Reasonable » Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:33 pm

Ben, what are you trying to persuade people to believe about the free will argument?
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

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Re: Does "unfree will" exist?

Postby Ben JS » Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:39 pm

I'm stating my beliefs in regard to free will, and am opening the door to any substantial defense of free will.
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Re: Does "unfree will" exist?

Postby James S Saint » Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:40 am

When discussing anything being "free", one has to include of what it is to be free. Nothing is free from literally ALL things, else it wouldn't physically exist.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Does "unfree will" exist?

Postby Mr Reasonable » Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:51 am

Ben JS wrote:I'm stating my beliefs in regard to free will, and am opening the door to any substantial defense of free will.



You can't prove that I don't have free will until you can predict all my actions.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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Re: Does "unfree will" exist?

Postby Ben JS » Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:34 am

James S Saint wrote:When discussing anything being "free", one has to include of what it is to be free.

Yes.

I gave free will a definition - highlighting my interpretation of it. I also quoted the definition of free you gave, in the context that I believe is relevant to the issue of free will.

My argument is that our will doesn't meet the criteria of being free.

James S Saint wrote:Nothing is free from literally ALL things, else it wouldn't physically exist.

You agree then that our will isn't 'literally' free, and free will 'literally' doesn't exist?

Now the question is, could your actions ever have been different than they were?

James wrote:In philosophy, it is the total lack of alternatives that guides you to what you know that you know, the "foundation".

[...]

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".


Is this not to say the past determines the future?

If the past determines the future, and all elements of our existence are a progression of an environment that existed long before us, how can we claim complete authority of the result?

-

Non-free or confined will doesn't stumble at this question, it can 'literally' exist, and I argue it does.

==
==

mr reasonable wrote:You can't prove that I don't have free will until you can predict all my actions.

Free will - the ability of agents to make choices unconstrained by certain factors. + freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

All I have to prove is that your will is either constrained or determined by prior causes.

It's widely accepted that a person's external environment contributes significantly to their development. Since we do not control our external environment, the effect of the external environment on the individual undermines their capacity for free will.

It doesn't even seem necessary to make arguments relating to one's authority of their internal environment.
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Re: Does "unfree will" exist?

Postby Arminius » Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:38 pm

    Humans have no "free will", but only a relative free will.
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    Re: Does "unfree will" exist?

    Postby James S Saint » Wed Aug 20, 2014 4:49 pm

    Ben JS wrote:Free will - the ability of agents to make choices unconstrained by certain factors.
    Ben JS wrote:+ freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

    Those are two different types of "free-will". The first specifies that something is free from "certain factors" (not free from all). The second specifies that something is free from ALL things by referring to "[any] prior causes". The first type always exists and the second type never exists.

    Ben JS wrote:Now the question is, could your actions ever have been different than they were?

    From the "God perspective", no they could not. All things are determined by the past Situation (also known as "God").
    Ben JS wrote:...the past determines the future?

    Certainly.

    But if anyone is expecting to make an argument concerning the lack of blame due to determination, it won't fly.
    Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
    Else
    From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

    The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

    You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
    The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
    It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
    As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

    Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
    Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

    The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
    .
    James S Saint
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    Posts: 25976
    Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

    Re: Does "unfree will" exist?

    Postby Ben JS » Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:53 pm

    Thought is directly correlated to processes within our brain.

    Thought is a product of the brain.

    As smell is to one's nose, as sound is to one's ears, as taste is to one's tongue, as sight is to one's eyes.

    Thought is not some mystical thing detached from reality. It's the product of a chemical process within our brain.

    James wrote:Those are two different types of "free-will". The first specifies that something is free from "certain factors" (not free from all).

    The certain factors aren't specified.

    I believe a certain factor that restricts one's will is the past, which one had no control over.

    As you say further in your post, the past determines the present, thus, the past completely restricts the present.

    This is sufficient reason to reject the idea that our will has any degree of freedom.

    James wrote:The second specifies that something is free from ALL things by referring to "[any] prior causes". The first type always exists and the second type never exists.

    Our will is completely constrained, but we'll still call it 'free will'?

    That doesn't make sense.

    We'll hold people accountable for a will that is completely determined by factors beyond their control?

    Are you listening to yourself?

    James wrote:From the "God perspective", no they could not. All things are determined by the past Situation (also known as "God").

    A determined universe is different than God.

    A determined universe isn't said to love man, isn't said to have any interest in man, isn't said to have any intent, isn't said to be sentient, isn't said to be benevolent, isn't said to be watching everything we do, isn't said to be judging us.

    A determined universe doesn't command that we do not murder, that we do not steal, that we're not allowed to believe in anything else.

    You're the one saying it's God, but that's your mistake.

    James wrote:But if anyone is expecting to make an argument concerning the lack of blame due to determination, it won't fly.

    The situation, as you describe it, is responsible.

    The composition of all factors that contributed to an outcome, is responsible.

    An individual isn't the composition of all factors that contribute to any result, thus, the individual should never be held solely responsible.

    Even within the system that is the individual's body, there are many different factors that compose the reason for any act. Yet, not all elements that compose the individual contribute equally to any given result. Thus, to retaliate against the entirety of an individual, is a crude means of resolution.

    A man has a tumor in his brain. The tumor led the man to commit a crime. The tumor is the main culprit, not the the man in his entirety. Respond to the tumor.

    A man is raised to be racist. Racism led a man to enslave another man. The racism is the culprit, not the man in his entirety. Respond the the racism.

    These are very simplified scenarios, but I'm trying to make a point. That is, respond directly to the source, whilst doing as little harm as possible.

    To villainize, to accuse of being 'evil'. That isn't a real solution. That's ignorance.

    Why do you want to perpetuate ignorance?

    =

    You imply that determinism is a crutch, just people who don't want to accept responsibility.

    This is bullshit.

    I've done more things in my life that I have to be proud of, than I have of things that ever caused me shame. My existence has been a net positive, I'm well in the green. Beyond that, I face all my mistakes, learn from them, and set them right.

    I believe free will to be false and determinism to be the truth, and if those beliefs are true, there are serious implications that ought be considered and responded to.

    Determinism humbles me. Anything positive I have done, is simply a product of the past, which I did not cause.
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    Re: Does "unfree will" exist?

    Postby James S Saint » Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:09 pm

    Ben JS wrote:Our will is completely constrained, but we'll still call it 'free will'?

    Well... You do. That isn't what I call it.

    Ben JS wrote:That doesn't make sense.

    So why keep doing it?

    Ben JS wrote:We'll hold people accountable for a will that is completely determined by factors beyond their control?

    Are you listening to yourself?

    Do you seriously think that I am ever not?

    Ben JS wrote:
    James wrote:From the "God perspective", no they could not. All things are determined by the past Situation (also known as "God").

    A determined universe is different than God.

    I will ignore your misinterpretations and bow to your vastly superior wisdom.
    Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
    Else
    From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

    The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

    You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
    The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
    It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
    As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

    Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
    Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

    The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
    .
    James S Saint
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    Re: Does "unfree will" exist?

    Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:11 pm

    I believe a certain factor that restricts one's will is the past, which one had no control over.


    I prefer to see everything in here-and-now. With that in mind, it is not desirable to attribute restraint to the past, but rather, to the forces in our brain that were shaped by the past events.
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    Re: Does "unfree will" exist?

    Postby Ben JS » Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:30 pm

    James S Saint wrote:
    Ben JS wrote:Our will is completely constrained, but we'll still call it 'free will'?

    Well... You do. That isn't what I call it.

    I've been claiming free will doesn't exist from the moment I entered this thread and a long time before that.

    I say we have a will, but it isn't free. I do not claim we have free will.

    You're the one misrepresenting me.

    You did, and I quote:

    James: 'Those are two different types of "free-will". The first specifies that something is free from "certain factors" (not free from all). [...] The first type always exists.'

    You just claimed free will exists, and now you're denying it.

    You're purposefully trying to confuse the situation. You're perpetuating ignorance.

    You're blatantly misrepresenting the situation.

    James wrote:
    Ben JS wrote:That doesn't make sense.

    So why keep doing it?

    You claimed free will exists.

    I did not.

    Cut the bullshit.

    James wrote:I will ignore your misinterpretations and bow to your vastly superior wisdom.

    You keep implying that a deterministic universe is synonymous with God.

    It isn't.

    I pointed it out, and now you're going into the refuge of sarcasm.

    -

    Typical bullshit from James, ladies and gentlemen.

    ==
    ==


    And as I want people to see my post, not your shitty half arsed misrepresentation of it, I'll quote it below.

    Ben JS wrote:Thought is directly correlated to processes within our brain.

    Thought is a product of the brain.

    As smell is to one's nose, as sound is to one's ears, as taste is to one's tongue, as sight is to one's eyes.

    Thought is not some mystical thing detached from reality. It's the product of a chemical process within our brain.

    James wrote:Those are two different types of "free-will". The first specifies that something is free from "certain factors" (not free from all).

    The certain factors aren't specified.

    I believe a certain factor that restricts one's will is the past, which one had no control over.

    As you say further in your post, the past determines the present, thus, the past completely restricts the present.

    This is sufficient reason to reject the idea that our will has any degree of freedom.

    James wrote:The second specifies that something is free from ALL things by referring to "[any] prior causes". The first type always exists and the second type never exists.

    Our will is completely constrained, but we'll still call it 'free will'?

    That doesn't make sense.

    We'll hold people accountable for a will that is completely determined by factors beyond their control?

    Are you listening to yourself?

    James wrote:From the "God perspective", no they could not. All things are determined by the past Situation (also known as "God").

    A determined universe is different than God.

    A determined universe isn't said to love man, isn't said to have any interest in man, isn't said to have any intent, isn't said to be sentient, isn't said to be benevolent, isn't said to be watching everything we do, isn't said to be judging us.

    A determined universe doesn't command that we do not murder, that we do not steal, that we're not allowed to believe in anything else.

    You're the one saying it's God, but that's your mistake.

    James wrote:But if anyone is expecting to make an argument concerning the lack of blame due to determination, it won't fly.

    The situation, as you describe it, is responsible.

    The composition of all factors that contributed to an outcome, is responsible.

    An individual isn't the composition of all factors that contribute to any result, thus, the individual should never be held solely responsible.

    Even within the system that is the individual's body, there are many different factors that compose the reason for any act. Yet, not all elements that compose the individual contribute equally to any given result. Thus, to retaliate against the entirety of an individual, is a crude means of resolution.

    A man has a tumor in his brain. The tumor led the man to commit a crime. The tumor is the main culprit, not the the man in his entirety. Respond to the tumor.

    A man is raised to be racist. Racism led a man to enslave another man. The racism is the culprit, not the man in his entirety. Respond the the racism.

    These are very simplified scenarios, but I'm trying to make a point. That is, respond directly to the source, whilst doing as little harm as possible.

    To villainize, to accuse of being 'evil'. That isn't a real solution. That's ignorance.

    Why do you want to perpetuate ignorance?

    =

    You imply that determinism is a crutch, just people who don't want to accept responsibility.

    This is bullshit.

    I've done more things in my life that I have to be proud of, than I have of things that ever caused me shame. My existence has been a net positive, I'm well in the green. Beyond that, I face all my mistakes, learn from them, and set them right.

    I believe free will to be false and determinism to be the truth, and if those beliefs are true, there are serious implications that ought be considered and responded to.

    Determinism humbles me. Anything positive I have done, is simply a product of the past, which I did not cause.


    Notice how much James completely skewed what I said?
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    Re: Does "unfree will" exist?

    Postby Ben JS » Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:46 pm

    Magnus Anderson wrote:I prefer to see everything in here-and-now. With that in mind, it is not desirable to attribute restraint to the past, but rather, to the forces in our brain that were shaped by the past events.

    And if your preferences of perception and desires for attribution are the source of problems in the here-and-now, what then?

    The effects of the past are in the here-and-now. Determinism doesn't only relate to the past, it informs the present. It does not restrict one from focusing on the present, as I focus on the present. I just don't falsely attribute the present as a product of the present detached from the past, and I do not ignore the past.

    -

    I'm going to sleep now, but I think your reasoning is flawed.
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    Re: Does "unfree will" exist?

    Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:07 pm

    I am not saying you're wrong. There is indeed no "free will". "Free will" implies that some things are not connected to each other, which is logically impossible (things that are not connected cannot co-exist.)

    Our willing is a product of certain system of forces located inside our brains (which we are unaware of, for it is impossible for an observer to observe itself) in relation to some other system (or systems) of forces (which can be located outside of the brain as well as inside the brain.)
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    Re: Does "unfree will" exist?

    Postby Lev Muishkin » Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:33 am

    Yes. Nothing is free in this world, nor could it be. Moreover; nor should it be.

    The idea of free will is completely absurd. How could any act of will be free? To be worthwhile is has to be motivated by ourselves, or intentions and limited by our capabilities, all of which are determined at any given moment by the lives we has led, starting with a act which was beyond our power to intend - that act of sex by our parents.

    I think those that believe in free will lack imagination.

    "Science is entirely Faith Based.... Obama is Muslim....Evil is the opposition to life (e-v-i-l <=> l-i-v-e ... and not by accident). Without evil there could be no life.", James S. Saint.
    "The Holocaust was the fault of the Jews; The Holocaust was not genocide", Kriswest
    "A Tortoise is a Turtle", Wizard
    " Hitler didn't create the Nazis. In reality, the Judists did ... for a purpose of their own. Hitler was merely one they chose to head it up after they discovered the Judist betrayal in WW1, their "Judas Iscariot";James S Saint.
    These just keep getting funnier.
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    Re: Does "unfree will" exist?

    Postby Mr Reasonable » Thu Aug 21, 2014 5:56 am

    Ben, prove that there is or isn't something restraining my will by showing that you can predict my behavior by reference to whatever proof you have.

    I'll let you guess which hand I'm about to hold up. Right or left. If you can guess right every time, then you've got proof. If you can't, then there's some percentage of the time at least where you don't have proof, and thus any hard stance on way or the other would be one that doesn't factor for every instance of behavior.

    These are old, settled debates. There's nothing new under the sun when it comes to where all the arguments fall when you're talking about shit like free will.
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    Re: Does "unfree will" exist?

    Postby zinnat » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:32 am

    pharaoh wrote:[i]Using the term "free will", whether by its advocates or its opponents, denotes the concept of "unfree will" in contrast.
    If, by any chance, there is no unfree will, and what all the "will"s in the world can be, is free, then there is no need to argue whether there is "free will" or not. In that case, what may be in question is if there is a will or not, since a "will" is inherently taken to be free.
    On the other hand, if there are such distinctive concepts as "free will" and "unfree will", however, they should naturally have distinctive properties, too, differentiating them from one another.
    Suppose you decide to cross the street; who is going to tell if that is an example of a free will or an unfree one, and by what criteria?
    One thing worth mentioning here, is that if someone forces you into doing that, at gun point, it cannot be considered an example of an unfree will, unless you call all "will"s unfree, since it is a normal cause and effect process which is not essentially any different from other cause and effect processes that take place in decision making, but might not look as evident.
    If[i] you decide
    to cross the street at gun point, 1. you know why you have made such a decision; and 2. you most probably are not very interested to do so.
    On the other hand, if you decide to cross the street where there're no guns, 1. you may not be quite sure what your ultimate cause would be, and 2. most of the time, you might not feel much dislike to do so. These differences are not enough to make for such dramatic distinction.
    If you can never tell the true difference, however, why should you be so happy about having a philosophically free will (in contrast to a common"free will", meaning "you are free to do whatever you like to, or you deem necessary".)
    It is ok, if you say you stick to any idea, whether right or wrong, as long as it gives you comfort, but what if the sum of the consequences of having such notion proves the contrary?
    Still, my main questions are:
    1. Is it possible to practically make a distinction between a free will and an "unfree will"(if it exists)?
    2. On the assumption that there are no "unfree will"s, why should one use the term "free will"? [/i][/i]



    By definition, unfree will cannot exist. The definition of the will entails freedom. Will means freewill.
    If it is not free, it cannot be considered will, in the first place, but merely thoughts.

    Willing means taking decisions by the conscious mind over the its own and subconscious mind's thoughts.

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    Re: Does "unfree will" exist?

    Postby James S Saint » Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:41 am

    Lev Muishkin wrote:Yes. Nothing is free in this world, nor could it be. Moreover; nor should it be.

    The idea of free will is completely absurd. How could any act of will be free? To be worthwhile is has to be motivated by ourselves, or intentions and limited by our capabilities, all of which are determined at any given moment by the lives we has led, starting with a act which was beyond our power to intend - that act of sex by our parents.

    I think those that believe in free will lack imagination.

    In case you had any doubt, at least now you know for certain what the mainstream wants everyone to believe.
    Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
    Else
    From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

    The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

    You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
    The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
    It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
    As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

    Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
    Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

    The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
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