a new understanding of today, time and space.

I see that the discontentment from in both America and the UK that lead
to that ill-fated vote the other day, in part stems from a feeling about
“elites”. Usually directed at the political center, US in Washington and
in the UK, Brussels. But the interesting thing is who is an “elite”?
If you include your average congressmen, then you have the means
to create change by simply voting them out… or do you include the average
nameless bureaucrat you can’t name. Much anger has been directed toward
these elites and yet, very little anger has been directed toward the
real elites, the so called 1%. The mistake here is thinking an elite
is political whereas the real so called “elite” is economic.
Both Marx and Adam Smith felt that the driving force of
life was the economic and not the political…
Personally, I think its not only economic and political but
also other factors, but anyway, the anger that exists is real,
I suspect just not directed at the right target.

Kropotkin

I was talking to my mom about Brexit and she brought up the point
about people, being and tribes. It got me to thinking about Brexit, tribes,
and identity. In reading comments about why the UK voted to leave,
many people brought up this idea of returning the UK to the UK.
This suggests to me, that a large percent of the UK population
didn’t feel part of the EU. They didn’t self identified as part of the
EU. They self identified as part of the UK, but not European.
I think this played a strong role in why the vote went the way it did.
This question of identity plays a strong role in our life,
who you identified with and why. I self identify differently
then a conservative would and that self identification plays
a major role in what we believe in and how we act and
our political and economic thinking.
I don’t choose the group and then self identify into that group,
I self identify and then choose the group. So I have been for most
of my life, been part of the working poor. Rarely have I made over $ 30,000
a year. These economic truths lead me to self identify with the working class.
I believe in freedom and equality and so this leads me to identify with
the Democrats. My beliefs lead me to identify with certain groups.
I believe in equality both political and economic, so I believe in
the democratic principles.

Would a self examination, an attack upon your beliefs as Nietzsche called it,
possibly lead to a new self identification and then to new groups, I
believe so.

So how do you self identify and why?

Kropotkin

You seem to conflate the EU with European. Many Brits I know feel European but don’t want the EU defining that in the way they do. It’s the same rejection of the political class that drives USians to Trump and Sanders and away from the establishment figures.

Of course, there was a lot of Little-England identity politics, and Scotland voted overwhelmingly remain because they dislike Westminster more than Brussels.

England does not want the immigration, also and especially the Polish immigration.

Scotland and Northern Ireland want to remain n the EU. So there is no “Brexit” but merely an “Enexit”.

(By the way: “[b]Br/b” is nonsense anyway. There are no British people in the UK. They died out in the early Middle Ages. Rests of them fled to what is now called “Bretagne”.)

That was one of the issues, and one that’s going to remain regardless. There was also a huge amount of confusion over what was being voted for, and a lot of general ‘sticking it to the elites’ votes.

As for Britons, the Welsh and Cornish are still there; the Welsh still speak Brittonic Celtic. The Cumbrian language died out not long after the Anglo-Saxons turned up, but Cornish kept going until a century or so ago.

But the number of the Welsh and Cornish (I mean those who are really still Welsh and Cornish) can be neglected, because it is very tiny. For the same reason France could be called “Britain” too, namely because of the Bretons (I mean those who are really still Bretons). France has even more foreign people (although it has always tried to obliterate their identities) than “Great Britain” (this name is like a declaration of war).

I recommend to use a different name, and even the name “Great Island” would be more correct than “Great Britain”.

But what if Scotland and Northern Ireland become independent from England?

What has any of that got to do with a democratic voting system Arminius?

The EU became too autocratic… hence the majority vote to leave, so nothing to do with racism or tribalism… why is the whole world thinking otherwise? why can’t it be that simple a reason?

(citation needed)

It has Brittany.

Recommend as you like, but a fastidious appeal to etymology has never held much sway in determining language and naming. The Isles were called the British Isles from antiquity, the largest island Great Britain (Ireland at the time was Lesser Britain).

If Scotland and Northern Ireland secede, the landmass will still be called Great Britain; the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland will cease to exist.

Because there is no “simple reason” when 33 million people vote on a complex matter. The Ashcroft polls show that immigration was the second most important reason driving the Leave vote. Not all leave voters are racists, obviously; they are in the minority. But the very great majority of racists voted leave, obviously, and some of them seem to think that 52% of the country agrees with them.

Given the average understanding of the EU’s processes and structure, I think the best you can say is that the EU is perceived as being too autocratic.

Yes. How do you call the inhabitants of Brittany? I thought: “Bretons”? Is that not right?

But “Britain” is not the correct name. Again: A huge majority of the current inhabitants of what is called “Great Britain” are not Britains.

So the name is directed against the English people - a good trick. In other words: Minorities are respected, okay; but they are respected too much - no good trick.

You quoted me wrongly.

Yes.

I agree. So I am - probably as well as you - not a fan of an autocratic system.

If you had read Only Humean’s and my posts before that said post, then you would have known the reasons for that post.

Maybe we should continue with this issue in another thread, if you want to.

I agree.

I disagree. (Compare, for example, Only Humean’s post and my response above.)

Some humans of this “whole world” are thinking much nonsense (compare also some idotic, stupid, racist posts of some ILP members who are full of hate, envy, and resentment).

Your mentioned “simple reason” is in the mind of a majority of all Old European people (I mean the people of the so-called “EU-15”, thus the EU before May 2004, the East-expansion). Europe has become too different and thus too problematic because of the East-extension. This was foreseeable because of the European history.

But extension is something that no super-organism (the EU is such a super-organism) can really refuse - politicians belittle this by using the word “practical constraint” (“Sachzwang”). So the EU has got a problem which has to do with overstretching. It has been overstretched since the Euro and the East-expansion. At the latest.

You see: I am also not a friend of an autocratic system. This is one of my main reasons for many of my threads and posts in the subforum “SGE” (compare there, especially the thread “Will there be war before 2050”).

Currently I do not see a solution (except a cataclysmic one, but that is not the one I really want to become a fact).

We have presented two different idea’s, one is identity and the other
is judgement. The two are connected. We judge: you whore, he is a bully,
she is pretty, he’s smart… and we have an identity. Created in some fashion
by who we are and by events, a conservative is a liberal who has been mugged.
I suspect we also help create identity by our judging…She is a whore…
which is to say, I am not a whore… By judging others, we declare ourselves
the other. He is a bully and we use that to say, I am not a bully…
This process of using judgements to create identity is part of the
“I and thou” thinking. This idea is in play until the “I” becomes strong
enough not to engage in in using judgement to define identity. I do not
need you to define who I am and yet millions if not billions do just
that, allow others to define who they are by judgements. If enough people
tell someone that they are worthless or have no value… eventually that
someone will believe it…That is in fact what has happened… Minorities
and women and those of the working poor and downright poverty stricken
have been told for generations…you are worthless, you have no value.
Men have used this technique to build up their value and to tear down
other people by deemphasizing their worth, denying their self value.
The myth of the welfare queen is one such attempt. Herr Trumpf
created another such myth with him claiming all immigrants from
mexico are violent drug dealers and all Muslims coming into this
country are “Islamic terrorists”. This is patently not true but it helps
firm up judgements in other people whose identity need propping up.
They can feel better about themselves by judging others,
all muslims are terrorist… I am not a terrorist so I can feel better about
myself.

Now one of the attacks the right uses against the left is, the left
judge all values as equal… the left says there is no right or wrong
The left believes in that failed idea of equality…the left has no
core values…these are all common idea’ that the right believes
the left have… The right using judgements to define who they are
and using judgements to define the left…
For the most part…you don’t see the left attacking the right the same way,
the left doesn’t name call the way the right does… the left values all
opinions as being equal so you can have your opinions…I think you’re wrong
but you can have your opinion… whereas the right says out loud,
leftists should be killed or the leftists should be exiled to their
socialist homeland I.E Greece or France or Russia or whatever the
writer thinks is a socialist country

( PS I am on rightwing websites
like fox news and Redstate and they call for the death of
liberals all the time and “liberals are traitors” and other
such things without giving any such reason for an action…
on liberal websites, you never hear for the call to death of anybody and
only recently have you heard the call of the GOP being traitors because
of their obstructions of the last 8 years and the left states/gives reasons
for their calling the GOP traitors)

The reason for this disparity I believe is the person on the left
is more self defined than the person on the right. The rightwing
person defines themselves based on their judging… whereas
the leftwing person has less of a need to judge because they
are more self defined…If I am secure in who I am, I don’t need
to judge others… I have tolerance of others because I am secure
in who I am…I have tolerance of gay people because I know
who I am… whereas a right wing person might denounce gay people
as wicked and evil and they might be less secure in who they are…
the right thinks the gays have an agenda to convert everyone to being gay
including themselves thus called “the gay agenda” whereas I
don’t believe in this “gay agenda” because I am secure in who I am…
I am not gay, but hay if you are, that’s ok. I don’t need to judge
others because I am secure in who I am…Now many here will jump
up and say this against me and that against me and call me hypocrite
and other such things… why? because they are judging…
and by judging, they feel themselves higher than me or more superior
to me and that is ok…

Why do you judge?

Kropotkin

I believe so. I’m not sure how many are actually French though.

That assumes that the correct way to determine the name of a region is to study its current majority inhabitants. I don’t think that stands up to a moment’s scrutiny in practice.

It was called Britain when the Angles invaded. They called their section of the island Englalund, because it wasn’t all theirs. Perhaps if they’d managed to claim the whole island it would have become Great Anglia

Indeed. Hopefully this will all lead to reform, but that’s an optimistic prediction at best.

From Wiki:

1766: Francois-Jean de la Barre, a young French nobleman, is tortured and
beheaded before his body is burnt on a pyre along with a copy of Voltaire’s
"Dictionaire philosophique nailed to his torso for the crime of not saluting
a Roman Catholic religious procession in Abbeville France.

For the crime of not saluting a religious procession…
He failed to raise his hat to a procession that was 100 yards away…

Kropotkin

You didn’t even read the wiki article?

The case was a lot more complex than your description suggests.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A … e_la_Barre

en.rfi.fr/visiting-france/201012 … ial-figure

Of course it was…that is the point…

Kropotkin

You dumb it down so that you can score a cheap point.

I’m not even surprised any more. :-"

K: a cheap point…not at all… think harder about it…

Kropotkin

Today is the Birthday of Hermann Hesse.

I haven’t thought about him in years and yet at one time, I read
him and studied him and practically worship him.
I’ve read virtually everything he has every written and today,
I barely remember the plots of his books.
His books were a glorious exploration of identity and who
we are…I spent countless hours trying to imagine myself
as a character in his books. Seeing what choices I would have made…

The question becomes, how could I have forgotten writings of
of someone who was so important in my life? It is possible I
grew beyond what the books offered me? I no longer needed those
books because I no needed to understand or find my own identity?

The search for identity is far different at 57 than it is at 27 or 17.
Today, I know who I am and what is possible for me, today and tomorrow is
answered for. At 27, the future looms in a far greater way than it does today.
Today, my past extends further than my future. My mortality has
spoken to me, far clearer than it ever did in the past.
and what does the search for identity mean in terms of facing my end?
Not much.

If I were to reread Hesse would I still be as enchanted as I was all those
years ago? I doubt it. Because those questions that drove me to Hesse are
no longer questions I need answers to. Today, I need different answers and thus
I need different questions.

Today, I am an outsider and I am ok with this whereas I used to
dwell and fear being an outsider. I no longer need to fit in as I did when
I was 27. I know my place in the universe and I didn’t know that when I
was 27.

think of a place where everything is moving…the objects, the people,
the isms and ideologies, everything is moving and changing. Becoming
something different every day including me. Today, everything is still moving
but something has stopped moving and that is me. I am the fixed point in the
universe for me. I don’t need to account for me in the universe. I can think about
all those moving parts of the universe but I don’t have to take me into account.
That is the beauty of being 57. many people take the fixed point of the universe
as being god, but I don’t have to take that dramatic step into wishful thinking.
I can be objective about the universe in a way that wasn’t possible when
I was 27. I stand in one spot and the universe revolves around me and I
can take it for what its worth. Much of what happens out there I just ignore
because I don’t care… An attack in … doesn’t wound me as much
as it used to because I look to the deeper meaning, not the symptoms as
any of those terror attacks are symptoms of something, but they
are not the cause and I look at what is the cause. Remember, I believe
everything is connected and by being connected, you can
begin to connect things and idea’s and ideologies and thus you
begin to see the deeper meaning of the universe. Most people take
one isolated event and work with that… but we don’t have isolated
events, we have connected events. One event connects another
person, place and other events and those connect to other people,
places and other events. When you look at the universe, you are just seeing
one line of a circle which if you follow that circle, you come back to
yourself. We live in that circle and events occur in that line of the circle
which surround you but you are a part of that circle and everything is a part
of that circle.

I am secure in my identity and I am part of the circle.
I am not as much of an outsider as I thought.

Kropotkin

As I have mentioned before, I work in a large, very large supermarket chain store
as a checker… We have had many mangers who get rotated in and out of our
store, every 6 months to a year, we get whole new management staff.
This current group is really, really shitty. The head manager sits in the
office all day and talks personal business with her friends on her cell phone.
I doubt she could tell anyone my name even though I have worked there
9 years. The 1st assistant manager hides so well, I couldn’t pick him out of
a line up even though he has worked there for a month. the second assistant
is a jerk who wouldn’t know customer service if it bit him on the ass. The night
manager is a young kid who gets whomever he can steal to do his job while he does…
god knows what…

Meanwhile we get visits from the upper management who regularly
walk through the store and “INSPECTS” the store. They walk through and
they focus on how the store looks. But they don’t notice (or care) how the
store works. They focus on the store looking good but don’t care if the store
is pretty much dysfunctional and doesn’t work. They assume
that if the store “LOOKS” good it must be operating good. The focus is
on the eye appeal instead of it actually being functional.
They, for some unknown reason, believe that the manager by
keeping the store clean is doing their job. Our store has no moral
of any kind. Most people just don’t give a fuck anymore and they
really aren’t shy to say so. The employees just don’t care if the store
makes it or not because the store is so dysfunctional. But hay, it
looks good, right? By focusing on if the store looks good, instead of
it actually working right, upper management has failed on its basic
job which is to insure the working of the store…
We have long, long lines and limited items on the shelf,
few if any curtsey clerks, short by about 10 checkers
but hay, the store looks good… Mainly because they suck
most of the clerks into cleaning the store hour after hour.

This failure of management is common in the business world.
Looks triumph over functioning.
You want to extend this into the political,
I believe this is also a common political practice,
make it look pretty even if it doesn’t really work.
The failure of America is one is a failure of understanding
what is important. We want a functional America, not just
a pretty looking one. this failure lies really with you because
you don’t hold people accountable for their actions.
What Me? I didn’t create this mess and we have denial.
Yes, you and me and anyone else who don’t hold people
accountable are responsible for our current situation.
We have Herr Trumpf and we are accountable for it.

We look to the easy way out which is focusing on looks,
but we need to focus on the functions. Does it work,
instead of how does it look?

Kropotkin

Why bring up Trump? (And we both know why he will be the candidate … thank you Democrats. )

If America has failed then discuss Obama’s role in that. He has been your president for 8 years. :-"