a new understanding of today, time and space.

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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:02 pm

evil is about the choices we make...…

how do I make "good" choice?

it is the values we become that decide if we are "good"
or "evil"...….

if you choose values that promote and honor people, that is
good values and your choices are less likely to be "evil"

if you choose "evil" values of greed, hatred, anger, lust, dishonesty...
those values are values that create evil...….

it is by the values we choose that helps us act good or evil

the act of choosing is what decides what is good or evil...….

choose wisely...

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:45 pm

it seems to be clear wherever there is "evil" the choice
to put one's own interest above others to the point of
damaging the others, that there will always be apologist
for that "evil"...…..

IQ45 has damaged America in his pursuit of being reelected....
the entire Ukraine debacle stems from his choice to put
his reelection above the good of America....

and there is apologist for that.....

I can only speculate about people's desire to be apologist for evil....

but I suspect it gives people cover to engage in their desire to put
their own needs above others to the point of damaging others.....

now one might argue that everyone does so, but that isn't true...

the engagement, the choice of evil, isn't limited to big acts of evil,
the deaths of millions..... evil can be small and limited.....

the size of evil doesn't make it any less evil...and the size doesn't
excuse people from the act of evil....people defend large evil so
they can commit small acts of evil... putting their own needs above
others to the determent of others, to the damage of others...……

evil is the choose to put your needs above others to the damage
of others.... you can choose to put your needs above others,
but not at the cost of other people being damage...…

so if I want to make my bonus, I can choose to make that bonus,
but when I transfer people out of store to their damage, that is a choice of
evil...…

evil is the act of damaging other people to my benefit...….

evil is the choice of damaging other people for my benefit....

yelling at people because I need to feel more important or bigger,
that is evil...….

one might say, that is a awful small example of evil...but that is the point of
evil, it can be a choice of small actions or large actions... the size doesn't
matter at all...… small evil is just as much a choice as large evil...…

it is easy to pretend, to believe that one isn't evil, but when you make
a choice that damages another to your own benefit, that is evil, abet
a small evil, but evil nevertheless.....

we rationalize, justify all our actions in some fashion or another...
believing our actions are not evil is just another rationalization.....

believing that a choice of a small evil is somehow justified because it is small,
that is just another form of rationalization.....

rationalizing that my act, my choice of evil is what everyone else is doing is
just another rationalization...…

to believe that my actions from buying a second car to taking that bonus to
accepting a promotion is without any consequences is false...…

every single action has some consequences... just because you can't see it or
you have rationalized it away doesn't make it any less true...….

are you evil?

have you make a conscience choice to harm another to benefit yourself?

then the answer is yes, you have make an evil choice...…….

and if you live out your life making a conscience choice to advance your needs over
others, to the damage of others, then yes, you are evil...…

but don't worry about it...

you will find some way to justify or rationalize it away...…

that is what humans do when faced with the truth about themselves.....

Kropotkin
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wind up with neither."
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sat Jan 25, 2020 7:39 pm

But Kropotkin, what does evil have to do with me?

I am but one person in a large world full of evil and wrongdoing....

my actions are but a small thing amidst the world's ism's and ideologies,
superstitions and bigotries that mankind does....

my foibles are minor compared to what I see and hear in the world around me....

and that is the problem.. isn't it?

you see the world as dominating who you are..
and that is a false way to see the world...

we must see ourselves as the be all, end all of
values....

what values that exists within the universe, exists within us....

if there is goodness or evil or justice or hatred or greed or hope or love...
it all begins and ends with who we are...….

I cannot, cannot control the world around me.... but I can control
what values I hold...…. I can make a choice...….

we humans do not see ourselves as the beginning of good or evil or
justice or ETC..... we see ourselves reacting to good or evil or justice.....

but we don't just react to such values, we originate such values....

evil begins with me and good begins with me and justice begins with me...…

we don't hold ourselves accountable for our actions and our beliefs....

we somehow learn to separate our choices of good and evil, hope and justice,
from who we are... we separate our values from ourselves... and treat them
as some separate and distinct values, apart from us...…

but we cannot do that...… we are our choices...…

"the unexamined life isn't worth living"

"know thyself"

is two articles of faith with the greatest philosopher
to ever lived....

to accomplish these acts of self-examination, we must first connect
our actions, our choices with who we are...…

evil is the choice to enriched yourself at the expense of others.....

when we enrich ourselves at the expense of others, we then have
chosen evil... but we don't think of ourselves that way.... we think it
somehow right or due to us to gain at the expense of others.....

we choose evil but we then justify it, we rationalize it, we nullify it
with weak justifications like "I was due" or "
"do under others before they do unto you" thus placing every single human
being as attempting to "get" you, so you "get" them first.....

my choice to place my bonus before others, is an act, a choice of evil...
and we then find justifications for such an act by saying things like,
"I had no choice" or "the system made me" I must act within the system
that I find myself in, so I can choose evil because if I don't, I might lose
my job or become less respected.....

these rationalizations, these justifications come about because we
hold to ism's and ideologies that we can use to justify or rationalize our
choices of evil.....

I can choose to be evil because that is what drives capitalism....
we can blame capitalism as being the "real" cause of our choices....

but let us return to a previous thought....

autonomous being..... if we are to hold ourselves as autonomous beings,
we must then take credit or blame, as the case may be, to make choices
that reflect our values..... if I am to be a true autonomous being, I cannot
default to using rationalizations and justifications to maintain my innocence
in any actions taken......I would choose to be good, but the system made me
do evil.....

we have so many ways to justify or rationalize our actions and beliefs...

among the many possibilities of rationalization and justifications we use
is patriotism and duty and country and nationalism and Catholicism
and religion and among the many ism's and ideologies lie many such
justifications and rationalizations for our actions and beliefs.....

that is not being autonomous... that is the direct opposite of being autonomous....

if we use ism's and ideologies to escape accountability for our actions,
then we cannot to be held personally accountable for our actions, beliefs....

and it is all about escaping personal responsibility, personal accountability
for our actions and beliefs...……..

that is not being autonomous...….

if I commit a small act of evil, I have still committed an act of evil....
regardless of why or what rationalization I might use and no matter
how small or insignificant my action might be... it is still evil...
if I choose to enrich myself at the expense of others, no matter how small,
it is a choice made.....and evil has been done.....

I can hold myself accountable and thus be autonomous.....

the more I rationalize or the more I justify my actions in terms of
ism's or ideologies or superstitions or habits or prejudice, the further
I get from myself...

I separate myself from my actions and beliefs by my use of justifications
and rationalizations... this has the effect of separating myself from my actions
and beliefs...…. I am no longer in control of my actions if I act from, or make choices
from ism's or ideologies... in other words, if I must act from or choose to be evil because
that is what is required in capitalism, then I have no control over my actions..
I must conform to the standards of capitalism and I have no choice....
I cannot do any thing else.. that is the opposite of autonomous...…

the need to conform to the standards and ism's of a society leads us to
commit acts of evil, large and small, with ample justification and
rationalization from the ism's and ideology of that society...….

if from my reevaluations I learn I am not a violent person, I am
a peaceful person, that is at odds with an ongoing ism of America
which espouses martial values of violence, the military, of guns,
of war......am I to be an autonomous person and hold to my values or, or
do I conform to the values of America and hold martial values, of violence,
of guns, of war...and do I then use those American values to justify or
rationalize any actions of mind that is of violence or of war?

if I am an autonomous person, I must hold to my values regardless if
they conform to or don't conform to the values and ideologies of that
society.....

most people would rather conform and commit acts of evil,
then be autonomous beings and hold to their own choices, to their
own actions...….

it is easier to rationalize one's action then to hold to be an autonomous
person...……

and so we return to where we started...

I am one person in the midst of a world of evil and wrongdoing.....

must I conform to the world or do I hold to my autonomous self
and make choices that don't require me to escape to
rationalizations and justifications to avoid any personal accountability
for my actions?

so what do you do?

hold to your own autonomous self and suffer from that choice
or do you conform to ism's and ideologies and suffer from the choice
of committing evil, be it large or small?

for most people, at this point is trying to see some escape from
the possibility of only two choices.... they are trying to see some
third choice which allows them to escape from their own accountability.....
and be able to blame the prevailing ism's, ideologies, superstitions,
prejudice, habits for their choices of the actions they commit....

I cannot be held accountable because I was only following
the societies values and ism's and ideologies and superstitions.....

is that your defense for the choices you have made?

rationalizations and justifications... nothing more?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:58 pm

I can see someone saying this:

I hope Kropotkin has stopped writing about evil...
I don't want to be reminded of the evil I have committed
in the name of some ism or ideology or some superstition or prejudice.....

I don't want to be held accountable or responsible for my for actions.....

and that is the beauty of ism's and ideologies and superstitions
and prejudices and bigotries......that they allow one to
avoid personal responsibility for actions taken....I was just
conforming to the society ism's and ideologies....

heaven forbid we commit to the greatest crime against society today..

that of insubordination...….

obedience to society is made clear from birth, my birth and
your birth.....

so how do we engage in being an autonomous being if we
cannot engage in anything but obedience to society?

failure to obey is punishable by prison or even death...…

so who has the courage enough to become an autonomous person
when the personal cost is so high?

and that indeed is the question?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:41 pm

do we "live in a universe where evil is a given fact whose reality
cannot be denied"?

and what is evil? evil is nothing more then a choice to
puts one negative values of hate and anger and lust and greed
before all other values or people...…

I may put my "solipsism" ahead of my contact with people,
but I am not hurting anybody in the process....
I can make a choice that doesn't damage anybody in the process....

I can put my needs first but that doesn't mean I have to
damage or hurt other people....

to achieve my goals without any collateral damage in the process....

evil is a choice.....thus it is not a given or a necessity in the universe...…

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:49 pm

if we, each of us, is born in original sin, then we
have no possibility to be autonomous.....

we must escape out sinful nature, we must find salvation instead
of becoming autonomous beings....

for if we are born of original sin, then the task of being human
is to be saved, but if we are born free of sin, then
the task we face is, how do we become autonomous beings?

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:59 pm

in the case of forcing to choose between Athens (rationalism)
and Jerusalem (revelation) …

one choses based upon which one we bow our heads down to...…

but must our choice only be between reason or revelation?

Kropotkin
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wind up with neither."
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:33 pm

"Essentially, the intellectual vision aspires to discover, behind living
beings, the eternal and immutable principles which govern the universe"

Shestov

but I understand that there is no "eternal and immutable principles
which govern the universe"....Nietzsche tried to make as the
"eternal and immutable principle" being the "will to power"
and Christians try to make god as the "eternal and immutable"
principle and others, such as scientist try to
make the laws of science, the laws of thermodynamics, for example
as the "eternal and immutable" principles.....

philosophers such as the ancient Greeks pre-Socratic philosophers
try to make elements such as water or fire or earth, as the basic
"eternal and immutable" principles.....

their questions were questions like: from where does everything come from?
from what is everything created? How do we explain the plurality of things
found in nature? How might we describe nature mathematically?

it is the greatness of Socrates that he brought philosophy down from these
"eternal and immutable" principles down to being about human beings.....

his questions were not about what the universe was made of, but what was
virtue and how did the value of virtue influence us as human beings?

that question has nothing to do with prior questions of philosophers which
was about the make up of the universe.....then philosophers tried to find
the human answers to the "eternal and immutable" principles....

beginning with questions like, "what are we to do" "what should we believe in"
"what should we hope for" and asking these question in terms of the "eternal
and immutable" principles....."what are we to do" is answered in terms
of some "eternal and immutable" principle such as the eternal worship of god,
or the search for pleasure or the avoidance of pain, or the pursuit of happiness,
or as I said, Nietzsche "will to power"... or Spinoza's idea that everything was
substance and that substance was god...…

the search for "eternal and immutable" principles has dominated
philosophy since the beginning of philosophy...…

and it has dominated general thinking.... the search for a particular
"eternal and immutable" principle has lead some to nationalism
and patriotism and religions like Catholicism and Buddhism and other
ism's and ideologies.... the indoctrination of childhood is one attempt
to create "eternal and immutable" principles in children which is suppose to last
a lifetime....."America is the greatest country on earth"
is one attempt to create an "eternal and immutable" principle...……..

but what if reason cannot get us to some "eternal and immutable"
principle that philosophers and society has been reaching for since forever?

the idea then becomes then reason is folly and worthless if it cannot
reach some "eternal and immutable" principles by which we can
live out our lives...…..

and if reason fails in this attempt, as it must, then we must, MUST turn
to revelation or religions or god to find an answer to the "eternal and immutable"
principles..... as reason is worthless the only other possibility must be
religion...…….

but this is based on a false idea that if reason cannot find the "Eternal
and immutable" principles, then reason has no point... but that is simple not
true.....the point becomes that we don't have to have reason find us some
'Eternal and immutable" principles... reason can be used to find us some much
more narrow purpose besides "eternal and immutable" principles....

the fact that there isn't an "eternal and immutable" principles doesn't negate
reason... and it doesn't promote revelation either.... it just means that
there isn't an "eternal and immutable" principles... and that isn't such
a terrible thing.... it frees us to find out what our purpose is without
any grand "eternal and immutable" principles......the bar is just set lower...
so what if there isn't any "eternal and immutable" principles.....
we can still use reason to seek out some other principles by which
we can base our lives upon...…

we can still use reason to create guides upon which we can navigate
the terrain of being human...…

as I have said, I believe the point of our existence, of human existence,
is to travel from being animal to animal/human to then becoming fully
human... we are at the animal/human stage... and it might take another
million years for us to reach the fully human stage, as it took a million years
for us to go from animal to animal/human...…

it is simply a question of growth....of becoming who we are..
of a reevaluation of values where we examine the values we were
indoctrinated with and replace those indoctrinated values with
our own values......the path to becoming human and authentic lies
with our coming to an understanding of who we are and what is
possible for us as humans....

it is seeking out our possibilities that make us human....

reason tells us that......that there is no big, grand, dramatic "eternal
and immutable" principles doesn't really matter if we seek out what is
possible for us as human beings....

"what are we to do" isn't some big grand "eternal and immutable" principle, it
is simply a small question of what does it mean to be human and everyone can
answer that question differently because everyone possibilities are different....

"what are we to do"..... "what am I to do" is just a relative question, one ask
what can we do together and one asks, what can I personally do?

I would answer the question "what am I to do" differently then you would
because I am limited by certain factors that limit my possibilities.....
as we age, our possibilities become limited and then soon turn to only
one possibility which is death....

when we are young, we have greater possibilities then we are old....
that is when you must strike, when you are young and able to achieve
your possibilities, but our modern world is full of attempts to
make you wait to achieve your possibilities...for example, you are
admonish to be patient, to wait your turn.... but by the time your turn
comes around, you may not be able to achieve that possibility any more...

reaching heaven is about waiting until the next life, pushing your
possibilities off until the next life... but why what?

capitalism is about achieving your goal, but do your being able
to buy more cars or another house or a new TV really worth the
effort to achieve given the time, effort, money needed to achieve that goal.....

reason says no.... the basic premise of capitalism isn't worth the
effort one has to put into it to achieve its goals....

you can better spend your time and effort on other projects that
will far better allow you to achieve your possibilities....

that is why ism's and ideologies are failures.... because to reach
any particular goal of any given ism or ideology requires far more effort
and time then the goal is worth......the point is not to try to achieve easier
goals but to achieve goals worth achieving......using reason to understand
what goals are truly achievable and, and worth that effort and time.....

for time is a precious resource for once your time has been wasted,
there is no getting back that time... time might be the most
precious resource on planet earth..... it is the rarest resource
we have as human beings.... and we only have so much time to
achieve our possibilities.... why waste that time with such nonsense
as capitalism and Catholicism which says wait until you can be rewarded.....

we don't have time to wait.... we have a limited amount of time in our lives...

don't wait... use reason to understand and achieve your possibilities....

but don't expect any such grand notions as "eternal and immutable"
principles...… they don't exists....


Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:10 am

we are faced with many questions...

what am I to do? is one such question.. and that question deserves
an answer but, but is that answer in the form of "Eternal and immutable"
principles? what connection does the question "what am I to do" have
to those "eternal and immutable" principles such as god, or the "laws
of thermodynamics" or the search for happiness or the search for pleasure
or the search to avoid pain?

Perhaps the question "what am I to do" can be narrowed down to this,
"what am I to do" today? or perhaps, "what am I to do" tomorrow?

we don't need "eternal and immutable" principles to engage with the
question about "what am I to do?"

I can reason it out without any recourse to religion or to an ism or an ideology
or to some "will to power"...….

I can begin by a examination of what beliefs I hold and why do I hold
those particular beliefs? are they really my beliefs or are they the
indoctrinated beliefs of my parents, the society, their religion, the state,
the media...

"the unexamined life isn't worth living"

we can begin our understanding about "what am I to do" with an
personal self examination about our values and our beliefs.....

"to know thyself"

the start of philosophy begins with these two sayings...…

not with wonder, not with fear, not with certainty....
but with a self -examination of our values?

the answer to the question about "what am I to do" cannot be answered until
we know what our values our and what we uncovered in our own personal
self examination of who we are...…

if I am a being of peace, then I can to begin to narrow down what it is I am
suppose to do.....if I am a being of peace, I can turn away from the martial
values of America and turn to the values that best represent who I am..
love, hope, charity, peace..... positive values, values that best allow us to
to move from animal/human to fully human...…

so ask yourself, how should I begin the process of the examined life?

first ask yourself this, what are my values? are they truly my values or are
they the values of the society that indoctrinated them into me?

examine your values, your beliefs and ask yourself, are they really the values/beliefs
I believe in?

reason is a very good tool here to use...….. it won't lead one to universal/
eternal/immutable principles that we think reason should lead us to, but
reason will lead us to some sort of conclusion to about what we really value/belief in....

begin there...

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:26 pm

People often pride themselves on doing the "right" thing....

people often seek out the low hanging branches of their possibilities
by seeking such things as pleasure, avoidance of pain, seeking out god,
seeking out titles, wealth, power, seeking out their happiness...…

doing the right thing by seeking out simple, easy task that don't require
much of them......people are lazy.... why not chase those simple, low
hanging branches of the meaning of existence...…

and who chooses to climb the higher branches of existence?

not many....because it is hard...… to seek out that which is hard is not
very.... human of us...……..

so what is hard?

we don't attempt to understand who is this being inhabiting my body?

most people would rather stand in a cage and fight lions before
an exploration of who they are...……… not the lies we tell ourselves
and then pass along to others... I am good, I am kind, I am peaceful,
I am sexy, I am smart...…… lies we tell ourselves to make us feel better
about ourselves...… who has the courage to actually explore or examine
their real self?

another thread just started asks, How do we become the Ubermensch?

the ubermensch isn't a physical aspect of us....it isn't about running a 4
minute mile or being able to bench press 300 lbs or hold our breath for
6 minutes...…

being a uberemensch isn't a physical task at all...…

who did Nietzsche respect most of all? Goethe.....
and why? because Goethe knew himself better then anyone
knew themselves before.... he explored his possibilities of being
a poet and writer and playwright and being a state official and being
a scientist... he not only explored those possibilities, he excelled at
those possibilities.....

and to Nietzsche, that was one of the major signs of an Ubermensch,
the ability to explore all the possibilities available to oneself.....

but even more important was that Goethe was a creator of values.....

Goethe knew what values he was and what values were important to him.....

Goethe had risen to the highest point in Maslow pyramid...
of self-actualization...…

he had risen about his needs and was no longer chasing them....

he was outputting instead of imputing....

which is to say, he had no more use for the lower values of
the pyramid.. the lowest level which is the physical needs of the body,
and then the needs of love and belonging and the need of esteem
and the needs of safety/security....Goethe had risen above those needs...
and those needs are needs we need to put inside of us.....

whereas self-actualization is where we have risen above those physical needs
and we become explorers and creators of the values we live by.....

when I am at the self actualization level, I am a creator....I might create art or
science or philosophy or I might create values...….

to become the Ubermensch isn't a physical thing, but a mental, psychological,
emotional aspect of us......we become the ubermensch by our examination of
our lives and our values...…

most people would rather die before the begin a real examination of who they
really are... and most people do die before they conduct a real examination of
their values and possibilities.....

and the fear most people have regarding an examination of who they are?

they fear that they might learn the truth about who they are...
most people are small, petty, greedy people and they fear
learning this because it might force to consider the possibility
but only consider the possibility of actually creating change in their lives.....

that is why it is easier to hold already predetermined dogmas of people....
that people are weak or full of sin, or damaged goods.... because it
is freeing to know that I am who I am and I can't change it...…

but the truth is you can change it.. you just lack the courage to examine
who you are...… it is courage that is lacking.....being the ubermensh means
having the courage to examine who you really are... what are your real values?

the step to become the ubermensch lies with having the courage to
begin the exploration of who you really are and what are you real values.....

the value you need to become a ubermensch is courage.... to start with
anyway...…

to do the right thing requires, no demands, courage....

you want to do the right thing..... then have courage.....

and courage is no less a value then justice or love or hate or hope or charity.....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:38 pm

and what are values?

Values are the tools we use to make choices....

should I become a lawyer?

I then use values, my values to decide if I should become a lawyer
because to BE a lawyer requires certain values..... are my values
compatible with being a lawyer? to be a lawyer requires certain values...
the truth is, being a lawyer isn't about the search for justice (another value)
but quite often you represent values that are evil... values like greed, hate,
intolerance... if your client holds those values and you defend the client,
you are defending those values....does your values allow you to defend
negative values such as anger and hate and greed and lust, among others.....

the values we hold determine the choices we make...…..

if you don't have values, how would you choose to become
a democrat or a republican or which laws do you choose to obey
if you don't have values?

every choice we make, requires a value behind it to justify that choice....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:47 pm

the quest to become ……………..

that quest is internal, not external.....

if I want to overcome, to become the ubermensh, that quest
is internal, not external.....

if I want to become a great runner, that quest is internal,
not external...……

the physical difference between people are actually rather small...…

we humans live within a fairly small range of physical possibilities....

that is why sports records often stands for years on end....
because physically, we can only do so much, run so fast, jump
so far, leap so high.....

the journey we must make is not physical.....

it has nothing to do with slaying dragons or climbing mountains
or running a 4 minute mile... that is only the physical part of the real
journey which is the internal journey we make...…

the real battle, the real journey lies within our ever changing viewpoints
and ever changing understanding of what it means to be human...…..

the battle to become human is a internal one....

the rise of humans from animal to animal/humans to finally fully human is
a battle within each of us, an internal struggle to reach that which is highest
in us... to reach the values that represent the highest of human possibilities....

the values of love, and hope and charity and justice and tolerance...…..

those aren't physical values, there are not like bench pressing 300 lbs...
values don't work that way......values are the answers to the questions of...
existence.....

"What am I do to?" "what should I believe in?" "what should I hope for?"
"what should I spend my energy on?" "what values should I hold?"

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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:54 pm

are they universal values which all must adhere to and found by reason?

no, I cannot see any type of universal value which can be applied to everyone
and found by reason.....

I can only see personal, individual values which a person can adapt which allows
them to navigate the terrain of being human... like a map we use to go from
one place to another... we use values to get us from one place to another...….

the one place, the start is birth and the ending place is death...
and we use values to navigate our way in life from birth to death...….

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:28 pm

if we think about it, the romantic were attempting to
solve a problem which faced them by say, the French Revolution...

the old order, the "ancient Regime" had fallen or was pushed to death,
depending on who is reporting... that ism's and ideologies of the pre-revolution
before the French Revolution were no more.... that there needed to be a new viewpoint
to assimilate was paramount to the minds of the writers, thinkers, poets,
artists after the French revolution..... the old way was dead, what was to
replace it? that was the question faced by the writers and thinkers and poets
and artist after the French revolution....

if the old ways being the Enlightenment, then what was supposed to replace it?

the Enlightenment was rationalism and individualism rather then tradition....
to look outside beyond the word of the "authority" like the church, the state,
the society at large... in which we no longer bow down and take our queue
from the "authorities" about the important questions in life....

if the old order is dead, and we faced that with a couple of historical
facts, one was the French revolution and the second was the industrial
revolution......man was by economic necessity driven off of their traditional
land, off of their traditional occupation of farming into the city and into
the factory.....so you have a political revolution and an economic revolution....

if you have a new environment, you must have a new response.....
basic evolution... a new environment means you must react to
that new environment....

the 19th century has often been called the "age of ideology"
why? because in response to the loss of the old ism's and ideologies,
the poets, writers, thinkers, artist, philosophers had to discover new
ism's and ideologies to replace the old failed ism's and ideologies...…

we see the rise of Capitalism and socialism and communism as ism's
and ideologies to replace the old failed ism's and ideologies.....

the 19the century had a problem and the rise of those ism' and ideologies
like capitalism and communism and socialism is an attempt to solve
that problem....the Romantic poets and writers and authors and artist
were attempting to solve the problem of the failed ism's and ideologies
of the previous century, the 18th century....

the Romantic era of the 19th century, of Bryon and Shelly and Blake
and Wordsworth and Coleridge among others, lasted from roughly
1800 to 1850..... when the battle to overcome the failed ism's and ideologies
was itself overtaken by the complete victory of the industrial revolution
and capitalism....

now let us take 1850 as a key year.... we can see that the modern era
started shortly after this... remember that there is a time lapse between
the end of something and the start of something.... it takes time for
a person, a people, artists and thinkers and philosophers to catch up
to the currents events...… so what happened a few years after 1850?

we see something interesting happening.....by 1860 we see new art entering
Europe...we see new schools of art, of writing, of philosophy...….

we have a response to the victory of the industrial revolution
and the victory of capitalism....

we get various schools of art including the start of impressionism
and then (in no particular order) surrealism, cubism, realism, post-impressionism,
fauvism....no one school of art dominates the scene but many different schools
follow each other....

we have a divergent in philosophy..... we see a wide diversity in philosophy
in various schools, logical positivism, analytic philosophy, phenomenology,
existentialism, post structuralism.... among other schools of philosophy....

and we see the divergence of science into branches....
before 1850, it was call natural science, a person could understand
the basic understanding of what we now call science by simple reading...
in other words, before 1850, a learned man, could in theory, be
aware of all the major scientific advances in all the area's of science....
thus Descartes was aware of as was Newton, all the relevant scientific
information that was being discovered... this was true about Kant...
Kant was aware of all the major scientific information and he could
intelligently write about it....Kant died around 1800....

but by 1850 science began to develop branches, areas of study like
physics and chemistry and biology and astronomy... it was too much information
for one man to be able to keep informed about...… science began to specialize
into certain branches....but that is in keeping with the changes in the art world....

so have also have a branching in the humanities... we get various disciplines
like philosophy and languages, literature, history, human geography,
law, politics, religion and the arts....

so in four distinct and separate area's, we have a widespread
and distinct division of various area's of study and all because
of a response to the fall of the old regime and the rise of the
new ism's and ideologies of capitalism and communism
and the rise of the industrial revolution....

today, we are at the tail end of that part or phase of modern life.....
modernism and postmodernism is a response to the response after
the enlightenment...…

we see the divergence of art, science, philosophy and the humanities into
distinct and separate aspects after 1850...

we are now 2020 and the response of the arts, science, philosophy and the
humanities to the rise of capitalism and the completion of the industrial
revolution, has lost its way.....

the response to the rise to capitalism and the industrial revolution
is now complete..... we have no new schools of art or of science or
of philosophy or of the humanities.. and we haven't had a new school
in those area's in decades.. that means something.... that we haven't added
to the divergence of the arts or science or philosophy or the humanities
in over 50 years is a sign that this too has played out... there is nothing
more we can add to these area's of art, science, philosophy and the humanities....

so the problem we face is a simple one... what is next?

we see how the artist and philosophers reacted to the fall of
the old regime by new art, new philosophy.. think Kant, Hegel,
Schopenhauer, Kierkegaard... the rise of new branches of science like
physics and biology and chemistry and the rise of the various branches
of the humanities....like languages and art and politics...…..

the various area's of human endeavor splinter and fractured after
the rise of the industrial revolution and the French revolution.....

the question becomes, do we attempt to reunited the various factions
that we have now or do we attempt to find a new path?

that is the problem that us moderns face.....

what is the next step?

if we are to reunite the various factions of art, science, philosophy
and the humanities into one or even 4 separate groups, then under
what banner shall we hold on high to reunite these diverse and separate
factions?

that is one of the many problems we face today as philosophers.....

what is the next phase in philosophy that might be used to
reunite the various factions of art, science, philosophy and
the humanities?

do we even attempt to reunite the factions or do we simple accept
that fact of division and attempt to create a new understanding that accepts
the divisions within the various disciplines and move to get
past that?

BTW, we could have also used such disciplines as history, economics,
sociology, psychology.. to prove our point of the various and widening of the disciplines
we study....there is no one concrete viewpoint that covers any of these area's either....
each of them operates independently of each other and independently within
each branch of study.....

so how do we solve this problem of our modern times?

that is certainly the question we face... among others....

Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:12 pm

I have a very short time cause I am leaving for work shortly....

but, I have to ask, how do we find meaning?

and as an example of this, do we find meaning, internally or externally?

is our finding value? and that word alone should give one pause,
but is our values found internally, with happiness or pleasure or
is our values found eternally, outside of us... the classic example
is we find our value in god.....god and heaven and hell are all external
to us... they exists outside of us...…

so should we look externally for our meaning or should we look internally
for our values?

should we seek contentment which is an internal value or should we seek
justice which is an external value?

and BTW, is justice an external value?

the question of religion is that an external question or is that an internal
question?

I would suggest that religion is an external question...… we seek god outside
of ourselves... I have search for god for decades... I concluded that such a
being doesn't exists for a wide variety of reasons. but that question is
an external question, how do I reach god? the internal question would be
how do I reach happiness?

many believe that life is a series of searches... we search for meaning
in the seeking of justice or the search for happiness or the pursuit of knowledge.....

man is about ……… and the question becomes a search for meaning...…..

ok, let us rework this question.....

we have needs that must be fulfilled... eating, drinking, shelter, education,
health care... each of these is basic animal/human needs that all, all
animals need...

the next need is safety/security..... we all feel the need for safety/security...
that is one of the primary needs we have.....is seeking safety/security
an external or an internal need? I would guess, it is an external need...…
but I could be wrong... what do you think?

the next need is love/belonging..... that I certainly an external need.....

I need the love of others and to be able to love others to fulfill this need....

the need for esteem is next and that is clearly an external need...…

I need the esteem of others to feel good about myself...….

and the last level of the pyramid is the self-actualization....

it seems to me that this last level isn't about external needs but
it is about internal expression.. it isn't a need....

my time is up and I must leave....

Kropotkin
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wind up with neither."
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:40 am

the question of existence is really the question of meaning....

what does meaning.. mean?

what is meaning?

we have the meaning of life.....
we have the meaning of existence.....
we have the meaning of history
and the meaning of philosophy
and the meaning of psychology
and the meaning of sociology
and the meaning of economics....

and the one word that is in doubt is the word "meaning"

existence becomes a question of meaning.....

what in the world does that mean?
is a question I have asked before.....

is that what he really means?

oh, for the love of god, you can't possible mean that....

in my handing dandy dictionary the word

Meaning: what is intended to be, or actually is, expressed or indicated;
signification; import....

2. the end, purpose or significance of something....

existence becomes a question of meaning...…..

what do I mean?

it is the significance of meaning that allows us to
take measure of our realty or existence...…

she had a meaningful look on her face.....

and meaning can be interpreted in many different ways....

I can "see" something and gleam some significance from it whereas
if someone else "sees" it might not have any meaning or value....

I read the words of Nietzsche and I see "Meaning" whereas someone else
might "see" insanity or just a waste of words or simple waste of time...…

I often get into trouble because I often see meaning whereas others see nothing....

am I something other then they are? it would seem to be...….

do I "see" deeper then other people? perhaps, perhaps.....

I often talk to people who tell me about their day....
they tell me of their "errands" that they accomplished
that day and they tell of the stores they went to
and the groceries they bought...….

and they see a day of accomplishments and things getting done...

and I see a wasted day.....and If challenged to dig deeper....
they say, we must go about our daily lives and do our errands
and make the bed.... who else will live our lives?

and I ask.. are you even living your life?

have you examined your existence?

is this really the best existence you can find for yourself?

is life really about our errands and our shopping and
vacuuming the carpets and doing the dishes and all that endless
stuff we do in this existence?

is this all our existence really about?

mindless task that bring us no closer to what it "means" to be human...
mindless task that shed no light on what it "means" to be alive...
mindless task that doesn't bear any light upon our existence.....

I cannot find meaning in our daily task of cleaning or of doing errands
or even going to work...… why even work when work doesn't enlighten us
to what our task really is...……….

there is no meaning in our day to day lives and yet that is all we ever do.....

just exists.... day to day with errands and vacuuming and cleaning
doing the dishes and finding no meaning in any of it.....

I look at our daily lives and I see nothing more then Kabuki theatre....

ritualized actions that have no meaning or value.....

when will we finally drop the mask and learn to exist
authentically?

I see nothing more then performance art in the way people live out their lives....

I can't see or find meaning in the daily task that people seem to perform every day.....

but my role, my role in this is to perform as husband and father and worker
and consumer and citizen..... but I only act out my role...…

it is all for show... as I said, Kabuki theatre...…

can I "live" authentically given ritualization in our lives?

the question is can I find "meaning".. authentic meaning in an life
that is designed to be as inauthentic as possible?

I spend my days.. hours after hour after hour being inauthentic to myself.....
for I must exist within a certain framework that demands, demands that I
work to create profits no matter what it does to my soul?

the capitalistic system demands inauthenticity... It demands
that we hide our true self to gain income enough to put food on the table
and a roof over our heads...……

how do I find authenticity in a world designed to strip me of my
individuality... I must dance to the corporate tune of the same words
to each customer and wear the same clothes as my other coworkers
and wear black shoes and punch in at a set time and clock out at
a set time and clock out at lunch and clock back in, in one hour....
and a sheet of paper tells me which checkstand I work at and
when my breaks are and who to call when we have a line of customers.....
we must always call when too many customers are standing in line...
it is corporate policy.....and if I fail to comply?

and if I fail to comply? I am insubordinate.... and the greatest crime
in the modern world... defiant of authority.. disobedient to orders.....

I am number 942566... I clock in every day with that number
and I get on my register with that number and I can get my schedule
online with that number and I can get time off with that number...

how do I exists authentically, when at work, I am just a number?

and I have my driver license number and my social security number
and all my other numbers that identify my to others
and how do I exists authentically when all I am, is just another series of numbers?

where is my meaning in those numbers?

how do I find meaning in my number of 942566?

I don't care if work makes its numbers or creates it profits
and I don't care if the manager gets his bonus or we make payroll...….

I only see the nullification of the human soul as we/I am negated
and denied my meaning within my existence...….

I cannot possible be authentic when I am negated, denied
being human for profits...….

how can I be human when my meaning is less then the profits I might make
for the corporation?

my meaning/ my value is nothing if I have less value then profits?

what is meaning?

I don't know.....

Kropotkin
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wind up with neither."
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:44 pm

let us continue to work out "meaning"

some say the "meaning" of life is.....

now it seems to me that we can substitute the word
purpose for meaning and still have the exact same question...…

so meaning and purpose seems to be the same word.....

I think the meaning of life is to pursue happiness
I think the purpose of life is to pursue happiness.....

His purpose in life is to make money.....
he finds meaning in making money....

these are some examples of thee sameness that exists
between meaning and purpose.....

the only real difference seems to be in the way meaning arises
and the way purpose arises....grammar basically, the way language works out....

I am still looking for meaning in my life.....
I am still looking for purpose in my life....
purpose in the last sentence seems to be a little forced...…
but basically they are the same sentence....

now that we realize that purpose and meaning are interchangeable,
where does that leave us?

let us look at the various ways that people claim is to be their
purpose, their meaning....

it is often said that the "meaning" of life is to seek out something like
happiness or knowledge or pleasure or avoiding pain or avoiding suffering....

so we either are seeking something or we are avoiding something.....
as meaning or purpose....

so among the many things we can seek is happiness or love or beauty
or knowledge or wealth, titles, fame.. the more superficial matters.....
but some believe them to have value in the search for meaning/purpose,
so I include them.....

now can one say for sure that one of these categories are universal,
immutable possibilities for everyone? nope... I can't and I don't believe
you can either.....

now the declaration of independence beside offer up the "pursuit of
happiness" also mentions "life, liberty"...as goals of meaning/ purpose....

the goal/meaning is to maintain our life.... but that can't be a universal,
immutable goal because sometimes as we age our quality of life degrades so
much that life becomes unlivable.... to continue life is to continue suffering
and who wants to endure years of suffering?

no, so the goal of maintaining life isn't always universal, valid for everyone.....

and what about liberty.... which we moderns call freedom...….

in this very day and age, we see people selling out their freedom because
of the fear they old..... rather be safe and secure then free... and that is an
old person statement....

so many people require freedom but many would rather throw away their
freedoms in hope of gaining a minimal amount of security/safety.

for me personally, I would not even put safety/security among the top 5 things
I would want personally or collectively.....

my list would go thus: freedom, justice, knowledge, love, hope....
but your list would be different....and thus we can't assume that some
qualities like freedom or justice or safety/security is universal, for everyone.....

finding meaning/purpose isn't a universal quality.... even something like love....
some people aren't seeking love because they might already have it, they
might have given up on love, they might be afraid of finding love... there are
a great deal of reasons why people might not engage in a search for love...…

so I don't think we can make as universal any type of quality that we might seek
like happiness or knowledge or love or safety/security...…

so we cannot find any type of universal meaning or purpose...……

because everyone will seek out different qualities as their meaning/purpose.....

so we find that the search for meaning/purpose is an individual one...…
we each seek out our own meaning/purpose... which has nothing to do
with anyone else's choices...….

and what does this mean?

I don't know.....

Kropotkin
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wind up with neither."
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Dan~ » Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:08 am

Value, meaning and purpose is like lego blocks.
Life itself is like lego blocks.
I like http://www.accuradio.com , internet radio.
https://dannerz.itch.io/ -- a new and minimal webside now hosting two of my free game projects.
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby iambiguous » Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:29 pm

Dan~ wrote:Value, meaning and purpose is like lego blocks.
Life itself is like lego blocks.


Not really. Lego blocks are actual things that can be wholly attached to other lego blocks to create this or that new thing.

Value, meaning and purpose embodied in any particular "I" are anything but that in regard to the relationships discussed on this thread. Instead [in my view] they are derived subjectively and subjunctively from a particular individual's life awash in components and variables that are anything but the equivalent of lego blocks or lincoln logs or tinker toys.

And, depending on the conclusions one comes to in regard to this or that value, meaning and purpose, it may well determine how he or she is able to get along with others. And, concomitantly, what happens when values, meaning and purpose come into conflict.

Here, a few think like I do, but the overwhelming majority of others do not. That's what always intrigues me about them. What do others know about values, meaning and purpose that I am not able to grasp?

Or, perhaps, what do I know about them that others are determined never to grasp?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:38 pm

thank you both Dan and IMP for your thoughts about this matter.....

I write to create thought about what is one's values, meaning, purpose....

I can only speak about my values, my meaning, my purpose...…

and so I continue writing about what matters to me in hopes to
stir up thoughts in others....

Nothing more...

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby iambiguous » Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:09 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote:thank you both Dan and IMP for your thoughts about this matter.....

I write to create thought about what is one's values, meaning, purpose....

I can only speak about my values, my meaning, my purpose...…

and so I continue writing about what matters to me in hopes to
stir up thoughts in others....

Nothing more...

Kropotkin


We both respect each other's attempt to think these things through to the best of our ability.

Can't ask for more than that in a place like this.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:40 pm

in this political season, here is the speech I would give
if I were running for president....

Hello, my name is Kropotkin...and I am
given you a choice.....

We human beings have 2 sets of possibilities...
and to be blunt, one choice is to rise up
and the second choice is to fall down.....

for we have only two choices, up or down..
because to remain the same results in stagnation,
we cannot remain in neutral for very long.....
for the very nature of the universe is movement, change,
evolution, progression or regression....

the two possibilities are we either rise or we go down...

and these possibilities can elevate us or we can descend....

the choices are about what values we are to choose.....

now one might say, but dear Sir... you are suppose to talk about
infrastructure or student loans or foreign policy...…

those are policy debates and by their very nature change, some from day to
day and some more slowly but nevertheless the nature of policies change...

the debate over medicare or social security or defense spending are only
an application of the values we have.....the real discussion needs to be over
the values we have in order to act upon those very important discussions about
student loans or medicare or defense spending.....

to discuss policy issues implies that there are values that are to be
implemented in those policy issues...

for example, let us talk about our values in regards to entitlements
programs.... should we hold to the values that all people should be
able to feed and clothe and house their families.. should we
as a society, ensure that all our citizens and even noncitizens, have
resources enough to meet their basic needs as human beings.....
for we all have needs, that is the basic condition of being human, even
the basic condition of life.... and should we then ensure that all human
beings be able to meet their basic needs of food, water, shelter, education,
health care?

The values you hold decides your answer and thus it is paramount that
we understand the values we hold in order to engage in discussions about
entitlements programs or defense spending or student loans..... the values
we hold drive the discussions we have about policy issues.

Now we can hold values that elevate us, values like love, justice, peace,
charity or honor, are among the values that elevate us... that make us better.

Values that lower us are values like anger, hate, violence, injustice, bigotry,
intolerance.

Now one may ask, rise us to what or lower us to what?

We come from animals. We are genetically related to all sorts of animals.
We are genetically related to dogs, cats, mice, the common fruit fly
and chickens. We are not independent, separate beings, apart from
the rest of the world. We are, of the world.

So, when you want to know, raise us to or lower us to something, that
relationship is to our recent past. To us in the past being animals, just
like dogs and cats and cows and mice and the common fruit fly.
We were animals. That is a fact that cannot be disputed. So we were
animals. We are now humans but we haven't, as yet, learned to
overcome our animal nature. Hence the lower level, the animal nature
inside of us. This lower level nature is the part of us, the animal part of
us that has anger, and hate and lust and greed and injustice and intolerance
and bigotry, as part of our animal values.

But we are also human and what are human values?
Love, justice, honor, charity, truth, peace.
Those are the values that make us human.
But until we can overcome our animal nature,
we are really animal/human. So what do we strive for?

We strive to become more human. So I don't offer you
policy differences like infrastructure or student loans
or defense policies, the choice I offer is what values are the
values we are going to choose?

Now, none of the other candidates are talking about what values
are important to us as Americans or as human beings. But I think the discussion
about what values we should hold, should be front and center of every single
discussion we have. Because the values we hold drives the policy decisions we make.

So the choice we have is to lower ourselves into holding animal values of
hate or anger or lust or greed or to become more human and hold
human values of love or charity or peace or justice?

That is the question.

Now conservatives hold to the lower values of hate, anger, lust, greed.
You have heard them brag about their animal values of greed. Grab
them by the pussy, is an animal value. Where money, profits are the only
thing worth chasing, that is animal values. Conservatives offer us
anger and hate and lust and greed, and most of all, fear.
They tell us we must be afraid of people of color or people who don't
think like us or look like us or pray like us. But they are people too,
with needs and wants, just like us. Human beings have the exact same
needs of food, water, shelter, education, health care regardless of what
they look like or who they pray to or where they live.

We human beings are connected in every way, shape and form.
We are 99% genetically related. If you can look past the superficial
exterior of human beings, we are one. We are one in our needs, in
our hopes and in our desires and in our goals. I don't offer you policy
differences, I offer you the choice of learning to see everyone, every single
human being, as one. There is no they, there is only us.

Now as for seeking out values, some people might not be seeking out
the same values as I am. Why? Because for example, I am not seeking
out love. I don't have to seek what I already have. People don't seek
what they already have, they seek out what they don't have.

Part of the injustice of the world is that people, millions of people,
lack food, shelter, water, health care, education. That is what they
are seeking, the basic necessities. But millions are not seeking out
the basic necessities because they already have them.
So those people are seeking out other things, like safety/security
or love/belonging or esteem. But to say, that my seeking is more
important then another seeking is just pure ego. If I seek love/ belonging
or esteem or some other higher level goal, that is just as important
as someone seeking out the basic necessities of food, water, shelter,
health care, education. We cannot deny others their needs because
we have already reached those needs. If I have the basic necessities of
food and shelter and education and health care, by what right do
I have to deny others that which I already have?

This is why the discussion of values must precede the discussion of
policy issues. For the values we have, drives the policy issues we
must discuss and that is why I don't talk about policy issues like
infrastructure or student loans or foreign policy.

For once we collectively agree on what values we should hold, we
can then discuss what policy issues we should and must enact.

Our values as human beings drive the policy discussions.

Now we reach the second part of this discussion.

(and this will end this post)

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7697
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:41 pm

iambiguous wrote:
Peter Kropotkin wrote:thank you both Dan and IMP for your thoughts about this matter.....

I write to create thought about what is one's values, meaning, purpose....

I can only speak about my values, my meaning, my purpose...…

and so I continue writing about what matters to me in hopes to
stir up thoughts in others....

Nothing more...

Kropotkin


We both respect each other's attempt to think these things through to the best of our ability.

Can't ask for more than that in a place like this.


K: agreed.
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7697
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:28 pm

(now comes the second part)

As for what we can agree upon, we can agree upon that we
want to make our world a better place. To make this earth,
a place worth living in. And how do we accomplish this?

The answer is a very hard answer. You must improve yourself.

If you want a better world, then you must begin with yourself.

I can already hear the critics. But it isn't me. All those other
people are screwing up the world. I am just living my life,
quietly and without interfering with other people.

and that is where you are wrong. There is no them,
there is only us. One might think that because everyone else
is screwing up the world, it doesn't matter what I do, but it
does matter. It matters a lot. If you want to make a better world,
you must start with yourself. It doesn't matter what everyone else
is doing, or not doing. You can't control over that. That is outside of
what you can do. So deal with what you can deal with, and that is
yourself.

Now one might say, why should I improve myself, when others don't.
Because they are evil and impure, they might take advantage of me,
because I am improving myself....

I shall give you a reason as to why. Let us say, you decide to
seek out god. You decide to become religious and follow god.
you might say, I can't seek out god because other might take
advantage of me while I am seeking out god. I ask, what do
other people have to do with you seeking out god?

what business of theirs is it?

Are you going to base your life on what other people may or may not do?

The business of self improvement is yours and yours alone. Now most
people use the example of others not improving themselves to justify
them not improving themselves. Other people are the problem with the
world, not me. Forget what other people are doing because you have
not control over other people. You have control over one person and
one person only, that is you.

This business of improving oneself is, frankly hard work. It takes
time, dedication, effort and failure is going to happen. That is the real
problem. The fact that to improve oneself does take time and effort.
Blaming other people is just an excuse to avoid the hard work
of making yourself a better person.

so, you have a choice. That is to remain an animal with animal values
of hate, greed, lust, anger, or to strive to become a better person
with our higher values of love, charity, justice, peace, hope.

That is the real discussion here today. It is not about the policy differences
between candidates. It is about the values we are seeking. That is the true
choice we are making today. Do we accept responsibility and accountability for
ourselves by reaching for our higher, more human self or do we lower ourselves
with animal values?

Society can only be helped, improved when each of us takes responsibility
for who we are and who we want to be, by choosing the values we
want to become.

Policy differences come and go. They are a dime a dozen. But the real lasting
outcome is our decision to grow into our better selves.

I mean, the choice is yours. I cannot decide for you and your spouse
cannot decide for you and your children cannot decide for you.

The choice to rise up and become a better human being and by doing so,
improving society, is yours.

and if we each strive to become better human beings, then much
of the policy decisions become easier because we can see where
we are going to, we can see what we are striving for, we can see
what values we want to become. The choices you make, make
policy decisions that much easier. If we choose to lower ourselves,
then we must, must build prisons over schools and we must arm the
police with ever more brutal weapons and we must engage in an ever
increasingly more violent and brutal society.

If we choose, if we choose to improve ourselves, regardless of what
other people are doing, then we improve society, we improve our state.
We can then focus on meeting the basic needs of people with an increasing
focus on feeding people, putting people in shelters, educating people,
giving better health care choices to people...…

But one might argue, that I am being Naïve or unrealistic.

But I am not telling you what to do, I am simply giving you a choice.

My job as president is not to make policy choices, America is of the
people, for the people, by the people and I believe the policy
choices are the people to make, you. But I want your choices to
be made with the values that make us better people. For the values
you hold determines your choices. And I want you to make good, honest
choices based upon the higher values of human existence, not making
choices based upon the lower, animal values of anger, lust, greed, hate and
violence. My job as president is to simple execute your policy choices,
based upon your values. Not my choices and not my values.

If this is an America of the people, for the people, by the people,
then I must, must follow the will of the people, based upon
your choices. All I want is to make sure your choices based
upon your values are the values of the highest order. Values
based upon the higher nature of what it means to be human.
You decide that, I don't.

If you want a better society, you have to be a better you.
You have to be a better human being, it is as simple as that.

If each of us strives to be a better human being, we then create
a better society, a better society..... the choice is yours and yours alone.

The values we hold decides the choices we make.

So decide, what values do you hold?

Do you hold the higher, better angels of our nature or do you hold the lower,
base nature of animals?

Only you can make that choice.

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7697
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:58 pm

Now one might say, why don't you tell me what values
I should choose?

Because we are, each of us, raised in different situations, different
circumstances, different backgrounds.... we have inherited
vastly different ism's and ideologies. And given our vastly different
situations, we have reached different conclusions about our meaning,
our purpose, our values.

We are, each of us, a victim of our different backgrounds..

My values, my meaning, my purpose comes from my background
and circumstances. The question becomes, do I overcome my past
and engage in a search for the values, meaning and purpose that is mine,
and mine alone, or do I simply hold on to the values, meaning and purpose
that was indoctrinated into me as a child?

As Iam is always pointing out, we are subject to the circumstances
of our situation and that can lead us to adapt values that are not
necessarily values we would choose if we have a choice.

For example, I am a checker in a supermarket. I must, to keep my job,
uphold the corporate values of money/profits over people's lives.
If I fail to create profit, if I don't work to increase the amount of money
the corporation makes, I am deemed disposable. It doesn't matter what
values I personally hold, I must increase corporate profits or I am gone.

I am not the nihilism/corporate values that I must hold to keep my job.
but I am a victim to be sure. Now one might say, if you believe that quit.

but every single corporation in America holds the nihilist belief in
money/profits over people and their values/lives. I cannot, cannot
escape to any job that doesn't hold to the nihilist values of corporate
America. My choice is to starve to death or to work in a job that
denies who I am as a person and negates my very existence with
its emphasis on money/profits over people and their values...…

I have no choice in the corporatocracy we live in, in America today.

But I can choose my personal values, which govern my choices as
to what kind of person I can be outside of corporate America.

and if enough people, find that life under the nihilism of corporate
America is not only demeaning and dehumanizing, but also a danger
to who we are and who we want to be, they might be a wave
that will end the dictatorship of corporate America...…

and we the people, we decide our own values and our own
meaning and purpose. Outside of the nihilistic values of
corporate America. We the people, in order to form a more
perfect union, must, must decide upon the values that reflect
who we are and who we want to be in the future.

Is my values, my meaning, my purpose really meant to engage
in the nihilistic pursuit of money/profits? Is that who I am?
the sole reason for my existence is to engage in the pursuit
of money/profits? is that my meaning?

I don't believe so and I hope you don't believe so.

so, engage in the values that give your life meaning, purpose.

I can't tell what values give you meaning or purpose. only you can make
that choice, that decision.

are the values that give you meaning or purpose, justice or perhaps love,
or perhaps charity or honor or truth or peace...………

what value or values give your life meaning?

For me, it is freedom and justice, and justice is nothing
more then equality. To be just is to be equal. I find those values
to give my life meaning and purpose. So what values give your life
meaning and purpose?

Now Iam might argue what about values that are in conflict?

I say, we have to understand what values we hold before we can
argue about conflicting values and what they mean in any argument over
values.

We have to put the horse before the cart and discover what values
we have before we can argue about what the values might mean in
any disagreement about the values we should follow.....

His arguments have a legitimate place in our discourse, just a little
bit later after we have discover and understood what values we ought to
hold that give our lives meaning and purpose.

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7697
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

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