Why a Big Bang? Why no steady-state universe?

K: Let us start at the bottom and move up. First of all, a heat death is very possible. It is called
entropy. A basic idea in science. Eventually, everything runs out of energy unless supplied by
an outside source. AS there is no outside source outside of the universe, we (the universe)
will run out of energy at some point in time. Think of it like a car engine. Fill the engine up with
gas and that engine, (system) will run until it runs out of gas. Unless you fill the car up with more
gas, (energy from an outside source) the engine stops. this is the universe writ small.

The next point from bottom to top is “no item becomes nothing but rather changes form” and
the “conservation of energy”. These are two different idea’s. First is “no item becomes nothing”
and the second is the “conservation of energy” The first sentence is a bit vague, so I am going to guess
you mean matter doesn’t become nothing? I think that is where you are going.
this idea which was Einstein’s that matter and energy are the same thing comes
from a mathematical formula. E=Mc2. You may have heard of it. This theory has shown
itself to be pretty accurate. But it is a theory and theories are based on facts which are
know to change. so we guess that “no item becomes nothing but rather changes form”
is true and correct but a guess it is. An “Item” that runs out of energy is still an item, it just
has no energy. A car engine that has run out of gas is still an engine, it just has no gas.
A human that has died, no longer has energy to run on. it still takes the human form until
decomposition begins which happens because the human no longer has energy to maintain
it’s physical order. To say another way, entropy has won over a human capacity to maintain
order which requires energy. Energy is needed to maintain order in the universe and once
energy is lost, entropy wins and the disorganization of matter begins. this is true of all biological
entities. Without energy, our bodies no longer has the ability to maintain its organization which
is its shape. As long as we have energy, we can maintain our system (our body) once we die,
we no longer can maintain our system and thus we decompose. This is the fate of the universe.
Once it no longer has any energy, (billions upon billions years from now, nothing we need to worry about)
it will act just like our body and slowly decompose. In the end, entropy always wins.
As for the conservation of energy, this is a equation. E=M, the two side must be equal.
if one side loses energy, then the other side of the equation to be equal, must lose energy.
If the equation is not equal, then balance is lost. The equation no longer works.
I suspect that at some point in the future, the equation E=Mc2 will no longer work
because the two sides will no longer be equal. This is the effect of entropy winning the
war.

and now finally your top statement is just logical bullshit.

Kropotkin

God was one of, if not the first ‘human’ intellectual intercessions upon teleological existence.

If one thing or event can cause another, if boulders rolling down a mountain can cause an avalanche, then it ultimately must follow that another thing/event (Erosion) caused those boulders to fall. Then apply Infinite Regress, all the way back to First Cause. What was the first cause of all things and all events? The early Christians posited that ‘God’ must be the cause (beginning) of all things/events.

Even if you claim that god does not exist, the causes of events still exist. So another explanation is required.

Secular humanists (modern judæo-christians) perverted Catholic Creationism. Instead of “god started it all”, people now believe “The Big Bang started it all”. Both are the same idea, expressed in newspeak. Something out of nothing, Ex Nihilo. Same ancient idea, except repackaged, and under the title, label, and banner of “It’s Science Now!”

Nope, I’m still unconvinced. Just because you put your faith in the same old idea, doesn’t mean I should.

Do humans require Finite understanding of an Infinite universe? Yes.

You can call it ‘God’ or “The Big Bang” if you want to, go ahead. That doesn’t mean you “proved” anything.

This is Anthropomorphic Fallacy. Because the human mind is finite, and wisdom is limited, the universe and existence must be too???

No, because humanity revolves around existence (objectivity), not existence revolves around humanity (subjectivity).

xfzgrwql:

X: Do humans require Finite understanding of an Infinite universe? Yes.

K: do they?

X: You can call it ‘God’ or “The Big Bang” if you want to, go ahead. That doesn’t mean you “proved” anything.

K: we haven’t proven anything. but the theory is needed before we can “prove” anything.
and that is what we are looking at, the theory. The facts seem to be pretty clear that the BB
theory is the correct one, but is it “proven”, no, it is a theory, just like gravity is a theory and
evolution is a theory, but those theories seem to explain the facts as we now see it and so
we are pretty confident in all these theories. In science being pretty confident is about the best
you can get.

X: No, because humanity revolves around existence (objectivity), not existence revolves around humanity (subjectivity).
[/quote]
K: actually, existence does revolve around humanity. Does the tree falling in a forest make a sound
if no one hears it? It is quite clear that the universe is a subjective one, not an objective one.
because an objective universe requires an objective viewpoint and from whom or where do
we get this objective viewpoint?

Kropotkin

Very ironic, consider the Word ‘Theós’ appears today as “Theory”. What is the literal translation of this word, PK??? Tell me the answer.

Yes, the literal translation is ‘God’. Christianity: “In the beginning was the Word (Theós), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

It seems that 2000+ years of human history agrees with me on this point.

lol no

It wasn’t merely irony.

“Word” means “a spelling” or “a spell”, an influential chain of thoughts in the mind.
Christianity: “In the beginning was the Spell, and the Spell was with Theory (as opposed to contrary to), and the Spell was the Theory.”

The theory provided/was an understanding; “Let there be light” (enlightenment). And that understanding was a spell. And that spell was the understanding; “God creating himself”.

There are some analogies between the time reckoning of Christianity and the time reckoning of the big bang theory:

Both times start at zero.
The future of both times is infinite.
The birth of Jesus Christ and the big bang are “singularities”.
Perhaps they come back.

Cp-: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=187384&p=2562390#p2562390 .

What I know is that we have discovered other reasons for the red shifting and that the BB theory was too speculative and based upon the only thing they could figure out long ago (no verification). We have also discovered that “they” continue to promote what they already have discovered to be a lie concerning many issues.

The only reason they claim that the laws of physics break down is so that they can claim there was a BB. The laws of physics deny it, so rather than dismiss it and admit their mistake, they simply promote that physics itself has become the liar, permitting them to make up anything they want.

They …
… are either liars, childish idiots, or both. I suspect the latter.

Logic is the one thing that is always right and the logic says that the universe had no beginning nor can it ever have an end. The earliest scriptures were not speaking of the beginning of the universe until much later they chose to extend the thought).

If I drop a bit of ink onto some paper, I will get an ordered splotch of some sort caused by gravity. But if I take another drop of ink and do it again, I get a slightly different splotch with a slightly different order. The gravity is the same. The gravity did not create the order I see in the ink splotch, otherwise the splotches would be identical (which they aren’t).

Forces just moves things around and re-arrange an Order, but forces do not create an initial material order. I’ve never seen that happen. Have you?

JohnJBannan:
If I drop a bit of ink onto some paper, I will get an ordered splotch of some sort caused by gravity. But if I take another drop of ink and do it again, I get a slightly different splotch with a slightly different order. The gravity is the same. The gravity did not create the order I see in the ink splotch, otherwise the splotches would be identical (which they aren’t).

K:The universe is also about chance. If you throw ink on the wall in exact same way, not
only will gravity play its role, but chance will play its role. Do it a million times and a million
different splotches will occur, but the “order” will be by gravity and chance. It is never by
one “force” that determines the “order” it is by more than one force. (calling chance a force)
Our universe has been greatly decided by chance and probability.

JJ: Forces just moves things around and re-arrange an Order, but forces do not create an initial material order. I’ve never seen that happen. Have you?"

K: What exactly is “the initial material order”?

Kropotkin

Chance == “I can’t see what is controlling it”.

The initial material Order is the discrete and particular division that occurred within the Big Bang singularity at the beginning of time.

What does one need for chance or a random choice? Let’s take the example of pulling a number out of a hat. You need: 1) a hat, 2) some pieces of paper with numbers on them, and 3) someone to pull the number out of the hat. Now, on a cosmic scale what is the REAL THING that performs these 3 functions such that you could claim that chance is behind it all? What’s the hat? What are the little pieces of paper with the cosmic options written on them? And finally, who pulls the cosmic option out of the hat?

Because you cannot answer all 3 of these prerequisites in REAL terms for purposes of the cosmic selection process, explanations like “chance” or “randomness” are really just meaningless labels used to sugar coat the fact that you have no idea.

Yes, quite correct!

K: In evolution, chance plays a rather big role in it. I don’t recall reading about a hat or pulling numbers
in several years of research about evolution. Chance plays a huge role in the universe, in evolution,
in your life and in mine. As far as the original BB, I don’t have any idea and neither do you and
neither do scientist. That is kinda the point. We keep looking and don’t assume that some
metaphysical being such as god did it because assuming god created the BB is religion, not science.

Kropotkin

K: I am sorry that you are threaten by the concept of chance. I am not.
that is one difference between us. I don’t need the concept of god to make me
feel better about myself. You want my recommendation about feeling better about yourself,
do what millions of americans do and take drugs like Prozac. I am sure after a while you won’t
need god to make you feel better about yourself

and no I don’t take drugs like Prozac to feel better about myself.
I don’t need to. I feel ok about who I am and where I am in life. One of the benefits
of being older. you come to terms with stuff.

Kropotkin

Chance on a cosmological scale as you use the term is utterly meaningless. You must refer to something REAL that is capable of performing the 3 functions of randomness as I laid it out to you. You have referred to nothing REAL but simply uses a meaningless label to make your ignorance looked palatable. But, if you thought about the creation of initial material order, you would understand that creation is necessary for material reality to even exist. Thus, this begs the question of the Creator. Science and atheists have no REAL answer to this and they never will. A God is necessary to establish said initial material Order.

K: What exactly is “the initial material order”?

JJ: The initial material Order is the discrete and particular division that occurred within the Big Bang singularity at the beginning of time.

What does one need for chance or a random choice? Let’s take the example of pulling a number out of a hat. You need: 1) a hat, 2) some pieces of paper with numbers on them, and 3) someone to pull the number out of the hat. Now, on a cosmic scale what is the REAL THING that performs these 3 functions such that you could claim that chance is behind it all? What’s the hat? What are the little pieces of paper with the cosmic options written on them? And finally, who pulls the cosmic option out of the hat?

Because you cannot answer all 3 of these prerequisites in REAL terms for purposes of the cosmic selection process, explanations like “chance” or “randomness” are really just meaningless labels used to sugar coat the fact that you have no idea.
[/quote]
K: In evolution, chance plays a rather big role in it. I don’t recall reading about a hat or pulling numbers
in several years of research about evolution. Chance plays a huge role in the universe, in evolution,
in your life and in mine. As far as the original BB, I don’t have any idea and neither do you and
neither do scientist. That is kinda the point. We keep looking and don’t assume that some
metaphysical being such as god did it because assuming god created the BB is religion, not science."

JJ: Chance on a cosmological scale as you use the term is utterly meaningless. You must refer to something REAL that is capable of performing the 3 functions of randomness as I laid it out to you. You have referred to nothing REAL but simply uses a meaningless label to make your ignorance looked palatable. But, if you thought about the creation of initial material order, you would understand that creation is necessary for material reality to even exist. Thus, this begs the question of the Creator. Science and atheists have no REAL answer to this and they never will. A God is necessary to establish said initial material Order."

K: fortunately, I am not quite as small minded as you. I accept my ignorance as part of doing business
as a human. but what I do is look for evidence. You assume that creation can only exist because of
god, but there is no evidence of god, so I must look elsewhere for evidence. I see chance
everywhere and know it exists. If you discount chance, that means you believe in a determine
universe. Every action is already fixed and determined, even to your begging for eternal life.
I choose not to beg for something I don’t want. I believe in a universe with chance because it
explains so much of the universe that a fixed and determined universe doesn’t explain.
A universe with chance explains why children would get cancer and die horrible deaths
whereas a universe without chance makes god a sadist when he inflicts children
with horrible diseases. A being with love regardless of the reason would never sentence
children or even adults to die horrible deaths from the wide variety of horrible deaths available
to human beings. a universe with chance can explain why in a car crash a child lives while
his/hers entire family dies whereas in a universe that is determined, a god that kills an
entire family to satisfied blood lust is not really a god I am interested in. the problem with
your theory is the problem of evil. In a determined universe, god has inflicted the human
race with evil for no other reason than sadism. I believe the book of job is an example of this
sadism and even hatred of humans. No, I would rather live in a universe of chance than believe
a malevolent being like god would torture humans for fun like he did to Job.
A universe with chance makes more sense than that.

Kropotkin

The universe appears to be deterministic in classical physics and ruled by a set probability distribution on the quantum level. However, in both cases, the universe is predictable to some degree and hence generally deterministic in nature. Nonetheless, God is not bound by material determinism and God could not be so bound in order to perform the function of setting initial material Order. Hence, God could share His free will with us.

There is evidence for God and it’s all around you. Material reality cannot exist without a God-like force that is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresence. The logical deduction that God exists based on the observed generally deterministic behavior of material reality is EVIDENCE OF GOD.

“CHANCE” is a meaningless answer unless you can point to something REAL which performs the 3 functions of randomness I outlined for you. The evidence for God is far superior to the irrationality of exclaiming “CHANCE” as the ultimate nature of reality.

K: Despite your belief that god hides behind every tree, I rather go with the evidence. Now even you
admit that chance plays a role when you say " the universe is predictable in some degree
and hence generally determinist in nature" that is a fancy way of saying chance. Now I like the way
how believers always think they can speak for god, “God is not bound by material determinism…”
if god is who he says he is, you would be not only presumptuous of speaking for god, he would,
quite correctly, punish you severely for speaking for him. Did god himself give you permission to
speak for him? I think not. Anyway, back at the ranch, the problem which you still haven’t faced
is the one of evil. If god determines the universe, then he is the creator of evil. of one who tortures
job for fun and games. the problem of evil works better when chance plays a role, not when
god is director of the universe. So back to our little problem of the BB. You haven’t provided
proof of god’s role here. all you have done is play a word game, a logic game, nothing more.
The universe is more than a logic game, it is so much more and beyond logic. There is no logic
to the universe which is why it is a game of chance, but I never said that chance was the
“ultimate nature of reality”. I said it played a role and it does.

Kropotkin

There is no REAL THING capable of “chance” on the cosmological scale. What REAL thing are you talking about? You say “Chance”, but you do not say what REAL THING is generating said “chance”. You’re engaging in a magician’s misdirection. There is nothing up your sleeve.

PK is so dim as to think that chance is an actual force of some kind like those who believe that “fate” is some kind of force controlling the future.

"It’s not God. It’s MAGIC!!! "

To some non-thinking people Chance is the God of the universe.
“Leave it up to Chance.”