Philosophy and Art

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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby Arcturus Descending » Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:20 pm

Do you think that a thought can be illustrated?

Another.

cigarette smoking can cause death.jpg
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enlightenment.jpg
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ecstatic.jpg
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They do it in advertising all of the time.


All you need is to be able to understand a word or phrase by personal experience and it comes into existence.
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

Thomas Nagel


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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby Alf » Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:01 am

All your examples don't and can't show what I've meant. I've meant whether a thought can be illustrated in the way that all humans would do it each time in the same way (your example "thought", for example, does not show this, because it can be interpreted in many, many other ways and from time to time very differently) and whether a picture can be thought by all humans each time in the same way (for example: a planet as a picture and Saturn as the thought always in the same way by all humans, but that is not the case either). What I mean is that we have the subject/object problem here again.

What do you, for example, think when you see my avatar?
How would you, for example, illustrate this thought?

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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby Arminius » Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:02 am

Alf wrote:What do you, for example, think when you see my avatar?
How would you, for example, illustrate this thought?

If I may answer:

I think of Alf and would illustrate that thought as follows:
                    Image
:)
Image
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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby Alf » Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:59 pm

Arminius wrote:
Alf wrote:What do you, for example, think when you see my avatar?
How would you, for example, illustrate this thought?

If I may answer:

I think of Alf and would illustrate that thought as follows:
                    Image
:)

But that’s not what everyone thinks and would illustrate.

I, for example, think of my birth place when I see my avatar and my illustration of this thought would be the birth house, and that is not illustrated in my avatar.

My avatar shows pretty clearly the church and pretty dimly a few houses of the village where I was born, but not my birth house.
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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby Arcturus Descending » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:34 pm

Alf,


What do you, for example, think when you see my avatar?
How would you, for example, illustrate this thought?


Of course, I may be wrong here but when I see your avatar, aside from what you revealed of it, I think of someone who likes or loves his solitude, likes to enmesh himself in mystery, likes deeper shades and shadows rather then bright sunlight, enjoys a place much less traveled by people, likes to reflect on his life, someone who likes to get up in the early morning before the world gets up and someone who likes to stay up late at night when others have already gone to sleep. Someone who is content and at peace with himself when he has a sense of being all alone in this world.

There is a kind of sacred essence which I glean from the avatar.
Now you can laugh but that is what I sense from the avatar.
SAPERE AUDE!


If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

Thomas Nagel


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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby Arminius » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:58 pm

Alf wrote:
Arminius wrote:
Alf wrote:What do you, for example, think when you see my avatar?
How would you, for example, illustrate this thought?

If I may answer:

I think of Alf and would illustrate that thought as follows:
                    Image
:)

But that’s not what everyone thinks and would illustrate.

I, for example, think of my birth place when I see my avatar and my illustration of this thought would be the birth house, and that is not illustrated in my avatar.

My avatar shows pretty clearly the church and pretty dimly a few houses of the village where I was born, but not my birth house.

Because you wrote the following text too:

Alf wrote:Food for thought or for illustration.

Do you think that a picture can be thought?
Do you think that a thought can be illustrated?


Is it right that you are saying that there are many differences when it comes to thinking a picture and imaging a thought?
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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby MagsJ » Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:06 pm

Arminius wrote:The similarities between philosophy and art are not caused by an accident.

What do you think about the similarities, the analogies?

The two are inextricably linked.

From Art and Design, and Poetry and Writing et al, comes Philosophy. We think first, then we feel/express after.
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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby Alf » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:39 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:Alf,


What do you, for example, think when you see my avatar?
How would you, for example, illustrate this thought?


Of course, I may be wrong here but when I see your avatar, aside from what you revealed of it, I think of someone who likes or loves his solitude, likes to enmesh himself in mystery, likes deeper shades and shadows rather then bright sunlight, enjoys a place much less traveled by people, likes to reflect on his life, someone who likes to get up in the early morning before the world gets up and someone who likes to stay up late at night when others have already gone to sleep. Someone who is content and at peace with himself when he has a sense of being all alone in this world.

There is a kind of sacred essence which I glean from the avatar.
Now you can laugh but that is what I sense from the avatar.

No, I don't laugh, but I don't like shades and shadows more than bright sunlight.

Arminius wrote:
Alf wrote:What do you, for example, think when you see my avatar?
How would you, for example, illustrate this thought?

If I may answer:

I think of Alf and would illustrate that thought as follows:
                    Image
:)
Arminius wrote:
Alf wrote:But that’s not what everyone thinks and would illustrate.

I, for example, think of my birth place when I see my avatar and my illustration of this thought would be the birth house, and that is not illustrated in my avatar.

My avatar shows pretty clearly the church and pretty dimly a few houses of the village where I was born, but not my birth house.

Because you wrote the following text too:

Alf wrote:Food for thought or for illustration.

Do you think that a picture can be thought?
Do you think that a thought can be illustrated?


Is it right that you are saying that there are many differences when it comes to thinking a picture and imaging a thought?

Yes. That's right.
Last edited by Alf on Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby Arminius » Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:17 pm

MagsJ wrote:
Arminius wrote:The similarities between philosophy and art are not caused by an accident.

What do you think about the similarities, the analogies?

The two are inextricably linked.

From Art and Design, and Poetry and Writing et al, comes Philosophy. We think first, then we feel/express after.

Are you sure? I mean: Do you always think before you feel? :P
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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby MagsJ » Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:33 am

Arminius wrote:
MagsJ wrote:
Arminius wrote:The similarities between philosophy and art are not caused by an accident.

What do you think about the similarities, the analogies?
The two are inextricably linked.

From Art and Design, and Poetry and Writing et al, comes Philosophy. We think first, then we feel/express after.

Are you sure? I mean: Do you always think before you feel? :P

I see you made a funny there...

Even if one was acting on instinct, any actions would still be triggered by a subconscious thought.
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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby Arminius » Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:07 pm

MagsJ wrote:Even if one was acting on instinct, any actions would still be triggered by a subconscious thought.

What is a "subconscious thought" (according to you)?

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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby MagsJ » Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:24 am

Arminius wrote:
MagsJ wrote:Even if one was acting on instinct, any actions would still be triggered by a subconscious thought.

What is a "subconscious thought" (according to you)?

Image

..something that sets parameters for us to operate in, and instinct would come under those innate parameters.
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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby Arminius » Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:15 am

Does a thought not always be a conscious one (according to you)?
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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby Alf » Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:43 pm

Ur-thoughts are conscious too. All thoughts are conscious. Even if they are in contact with instincts: Thoughts are always conscious.
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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby Arminius » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:58 pm

Yes.
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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby James S Saint » Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:16 am

Alf wrote:Thoughts are always conscious.

In a different sense, unrelated to art, a great deal of thinking and the associated "thoughts" are not conscious (unless you are defining thoughts as only the conscious thoughts). A great deal of cognition is subconscious deducing, predicting, and presuming and often very complex thoughts, difficult to express in spoken language.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby Magnus Anderson » Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:08 am

Arminius wrote:Does a thought not always be a conscious one (according to you)?


Being conscious of your thoughts can mean many different things but in most cases what people mean when they speak of conscious thoughts is words i.e. thoughts expressed in language.

Thoughts express themselves through actions -- all kind of actions. They express themselves through verbal actions but they also express themselves through non-verbal actions. In fact, their expression through non-verbal actions, I will argue, is their most significant form of expression.

Being conscious or unconscious of something simply means being aware or unaware of that something. And if that something refers to your thoughts then what it means is being aware or unaware of your thoughts. Your thoughts manifest through your actions and you can be aware or unaware of your actions, and if you are aware of them, you can be aware or unware of what kind of thoughts direct them.

I performed who-knows-how-many actions in the past. Some of these actions I was aware of and I am still aware of. Some of these actions I was aware of but I am no longer aware of (I forgot them.) And some of these actions I was never aware of. Of those actions I am still aware of some of them are processed by my brain which means I have an insight into what kind of thoughts directed them.

The purpose of thinking is prediction.
The purpose of prediction is to prevent what is unwanted from happening.
I got a philosophy degree, I'm not upset that I can't find work as a philosopher. It was my decision, and I knew that it wasn't a money making degree, so I get money elsewhere.
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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby Arminius » Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:53 pm

I define "thoughts" as "concsious thoughts". So to me, "unsonscious thoughts" don't exist at all, and something like "subconscious thoughts" should not be called "thoughts" or just "subconscious thoughts" or "preconscious thoughts".
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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:13 pm

I understand. Would you agree that "conscious thought" is nothing other than "imaginary speech"? Personally, I think that in a lot of situations these "conscious thoughts" hinder thinking. We talk in order to communicate. When there is no reason to communicate, there is no reason to be "conscious of your thoughts". Because, when you're "conscious of your thoughts", what you are really doing is you are imagining yourself sharing your inclinations with others. And when there is no reason to do so, it's a waste of energy. The goal does not require it. We do it merely because we are used to doing it. Because we are used to talking. We don't do it because it is necessary. Imagine yourself in the wild having these "conscious thoughts" before deciding how to go about hunting your prey. It's excessive. It does not help you in any way. It's pointless because there is noone to listen to you. The more efficient approach would be to keep your mind silent. By forcing it to stop talking you force it to focus its attention on what matters. In fact, you force it to think more and to act only when it is necessary to act. But then, it appears that according to you, such a person, relying mostly on his intuition to make decisions, does not think. Apparently, because his thinking process is opaque. He is not aware how he thinks, so he must not be thinking.
I got a philosophy degree, I'm not upset that I can't find work as a philosopher. It was my decision, and I knew that it wasn't a money making degree, so I get money elsewhere.
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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby Jakob » Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:02 pm

A strategist never shares his most conscious thoughts.
A philosopher must he a strategist.

This site shows why.
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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby James S Saint » Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:07 pm

So if not thoughts and thinking, when you are on autopilot driving through typical city traffic while your mind drifts away onto distant day-dreams, what do you want to call that calculating, predicting, strategizing, and so on??
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby WendyDarling » Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:12 pm

JSS,
Didn't we have a discussion about this autopilot mode years ago? I can't recall the thread.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby James S Saint » Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:30 pm

WendyDarling wrote:JSS,
Didn't we have a discussion about this autopilot mode years ago? I can't recall the thread.

Possibly. I can't remember the discussion.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25809
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby Alf » Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:50 pm

James S Saint wrote:
Alf wrote:Thoughts are always conscious.

In a different sense, unrelated to art, a great deal of thinking and the associated "thoughts" are not conscious (unless you are defining thoughts as only the conscious thoughts). A great deal of cognition is subconscious deducing, predicting, and presuming and often very complex thoughts, difficult to express in spoken language.

But the spoken language can and does express those very complex thoughts.

James S Saint wrote:So if not thoughts and thinking, when you are on autopilot driving through typical city traffic while your mind drifts away onto distant day-dreams, what do you want to call that calculating, predicting, strategizing, and so on??

Those so-called "strategists" are liars and fakers; so by "strategizing" they just mean "lying" and "faking".
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Re: Philosophy and Art

Postby Arminius » Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:26 pm

Magnus Anderson wrote:I understand. Would you agree that "conscious thought" is nothing other than "imaginary speech"? Personally, I think that in a lot of situations these "conscious thoughts" hinder thinking. We talk in order to communicate.

We do not only talk in order to communicate, but also in order to e.g. get power ... and so on. So, communication can also be something like a lie, a fake, a mask, an excuse ... and so on and so forth.
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