Philosophy and Art

Talking is langugae, regardless whether you agree or not.

Here is an “Elephant Talk”, produced by an animal herd:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7hnVnjvjY0[/youtube]

That is language too, but of different kinds. This “animal herd” is talking by using musical instruments, bodies, voices. There is communication and there is expression in that musical and non-musical language.

By the way (and in order to come closer to the topic): It is art to a large and philosophy to a lower extent.

Now you can value it and say that this art and philosophy are typical for our late modern phase. Okay. The heck with it!

Here is the text of that said song:

This animal herd is lamenting the senselessness of human communication. :wink:

You are like one of those people who say that there is no such a thing as self-deception.

I can hear these people screaming that this is a consequence of language abuse.
I say that this is a consequence of taking words too literally.

Self is a multiplicity. It is not a single thing.
We treat it as a single thing for the sake of convenience.
So when we say A decieves A what we really mean is that some part within A (say A1) deceives some other part within A (say A2.)

The statement that talking is language is a fact. I was talking about a fact. You are trying to put something in my mouth I never said. I did not say that there is no self-deception. If you want to tell something about self-deception, then just do it, but note that it should have to do with the topic of this thread.

Hmm…are they? Have you ever suddenly woken up in a sense ~~ out of a daydream? We think in our daydreams. I am not so sure that they are conscious thoughts…that we are conscious of them.
Some thoughts come to us suddenly from out of the blue. Are they conscious thoughts?

Would you define conscious here as something that you are aware of, self-aware of, in the moments when they are happening?

I am not saying that I am correct here. I am just wondering…

Hello Arc,long time here.

Maybe a little mediation may offer a different view.
In one sense , the thought in a dream is not one where the person dreaming can establish beyond a reasonable doubt that he is in fact dreaming.

But then in real life we have ultimately the similar problem2, hence the outcry in cases of extreme situations of feelings of unreality: “am I dreaming this?”

Not to bring back the adage, “Life is but a dream”.

I would like to know what you think about the following text:

I think that there are indeed similarities between philosophy and art in the sense of cultural forms, so that both can be in a good form and afterwards in a bad form.

When you are dreaming that “you are thinking or saying ‘am I dreaming this?’”, then your consciousness is not involved.
When you are not dreaming, but thinking or saying “am I dreaming this?”, then your consciousness is involved.

And are both now in a good or in a bad form?

I mean, think of this:

Alf wrote:

It sounds to me as though a form of consciousness is involved. If not, then how would you explain it?

It almost sounds to me as though one’s consciousness is less alert in this instance then in the former instance.
I think that I am kidding there…maybe.

Isn’t consciousness about awareness/self-awareness and sensation? Do we not have an experience of self in our dreams albeit perhaps more on a metaphorical and symbolic level?
There has to be consciousness involved in dreams. I have done any number of things in my dream state that I also do in my waking state - except for the flying.

Consciousness influences (affects) unconsciousness - and vice versa. But the dreams as such are not conscious. That’s what I am saying.

Let’s have a film production as an analogy. The film is the “dream”, the consciousnees is the “screenwriter”, the unconsciousnees is the “film producer”. The screenwriter has directly nothing to do with the film. The thoughts of the screenwriter are hidden in the script, only the language gives information about them to others. The film producer knows the script (language) of the screenwriter and the film.

Both are in bad form, of course.

Debate on Brutalist Architecture:

fee.org/articles/against-libertarian-brutalism/

A case for Brutalism:
youtube.com/watch?v=VGwVAxRHxgM

Debate on Sydney’s Sirius building:
youtube.com/watch?v=P0sBs7CDM44

The Sirius Case:
youtube.com/watch?v=u-OkL3eKmjs

youtube.com/watch?v=7aom7e29bvs

The controversial Sirius Social Housing Building:

The Barbican Story (another Brutalist social housing project):

youtube.com/watch?v=fdbSMfXbjTA

Art, Artificial == the product of an Artisan.

Cold, James, real cold. :imp:

I make an art of it. 8-[

ONLY EXAMPLES:

1) Le Corbusier:

Sainte-Marie de la Tourette near Lyon:

Unité d’habitation in Marseille:

2) Moshe Safdie:

Habitat 67 in Montreal:

Condominium in Singapore:

3) Daniel Libeskind:

Imperial War Museum North in Manchester:

Militärhistorisches Museum in Dresden:
MhM.jpg