Occidental Philosophy versus Oriental Philosophy.

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Occidental Philosophy versus Oriental Philosophy.

Postby Arminius » Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:25 pm

There are great differences between the occidental philosophy and the oriental philosophy.

What do you think about this two kinds of philosophy, their differences and their similarities?
Last edited by Arminius on Wed Mar 09, 2016 2:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Oxidental Philosophy versus Oriental Philosophy.

Postby The Golden Turd » Wed Mar 09, 2016 2:00 am

Not much difference. Both Confucius and Aristotle had been influenced by the same historical figure, Sardanapullas/King Zhou of Zhang..... both reacted on developing social theories of virtuous living and virtuous states.

Both China and the west have been touched by Buddhism. Both China and Europe have the early Mesopotamian heritage of snakegods and floods, a Orphic creation myth is (yes, the Chinese do too, largely the same).

We both developed empires based on feudal and federal concepts, both developed fascist strands of thinking, we both had groups that rejected the filthy aspects of society for nature, the Cynics and the Taoists. Our military writers often parallel.

India and the west likewise share many similarities. We both share strong Mesopotamian roots, in direct contact with them. We have both been in periodic contact philosophically, and have colonized one another periodically, especially early on and late. A lot of Greek concepts merged with Buddhism and Vedanta, and vice versa with the pythagoreans and neo-platonists, and skeptics like Sextus Empericus. India directly imported it's Astrology fro the west, we have their numerals.

Buddhism has influenced some of the mysticism of Greek Orthodox Monastics, Christianity and Islam certainly spurred the growth of monotheistic cults in India, and our western emphasis of empire building lead India to do the same.
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Re: Occidental Philosophy versus Oriental Philosophy.

Postby Moreno » Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:12 am

It boils down to a much more casual sense of the individual self in the Oriental.
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Re: Occidental Philosophy versus Oriental Philosophy.

Postby Mictlantecuhtli » Wed Mar 09, 2016 11:56 am

Arminius wrote:There are great differences between the occidental philosophy and the oriental philosophy.

What do you think about this two kinds of philosophy, their differences and their similarities?


A sort of western versus eastern philosophical spectrum?
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Re: Occidental Philosophy versus Oriental Philosophy.

Postby James S Saint » Wed Mar 09, 2016 6:01 pm

East = the effort to harmonize life.
West = the effort to control life.

..not that either have been particularly good at it.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
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Re: Occidental Philosophy versus Oriental Philosophy.

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Wed Mar 09, 2016 6:06 pm

James S Saint wrote:East = the effort to harmonize life.
West = the effort to control life.

..not that either have been particularly good at it.


Doesnt seem like it to me. China and Russia are even more controlling than western nations. And there is a certain harmony to the sloppiness and chaos of the west.
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Re: Occidental Philosophy versus Oriental Philosophy.

Postby James S Saint » Thu Mar 10, 2016 7:42 am

Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:
James S Saint wrote:East = the effort to harmonize life.
West = the effort to control life.

..not that either have been particularly good at it.


Doesnt seem like it to me. China and Russia are even more controlling than western nations. And there is a certain harmony to the sloppiness and chaos of the west.

Currently they both suffer backlash from their own history causing a reversal of focus (force harmony through absolute control and gain control by a pretense of harmony). And both still making all of the same mistakes to cause another reversal. The only thing they are each learning is how to screw it up faster and more certainly.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Occidental Philosophy versus Oriental Philosophy.

Postby Moreno » Thu Mar 10, 2016 10:58 am

James S Saint wrote:East = the effort to harmonize life.
West = the effort to control life.

..not that either have been particularly good at it.
I think this relates to my radical overgeneralizing in my first post here.
In the East background and foreground are given a more balanced weight - this actually shows up in what people will notice in an image.
Relationships are also 'seen' more in the East in images. And in the West objects.
I see these patterns related to what is stressed. The individual, the thing, self. Or, the dynamics, relations (family) harmony, perception. The former one could argue at best create a healthy ego and an actualized individual. The latter best creates an expeience of the dissolution of subject/object split and harmony in relations.
Each approach having advantages and disadvantages depending on context.
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Re: Occidental Philosophy versus Oriental Philosophy.

Postby Mictlantecuhtli » Thu Mar 10, 2016 1:57 pm

James S Saint wrote:East = the effort to harmonize life.
West = the effort to control life.

..not that either have been particularly good at it.


I can agree with that sentiment.
Civilization is a ship of fools headed to a one way destination of catastrophe and annihilation, its many captains populated by asshole-idiots that all agree it is unsinkable.

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Re: Occidental Philosophy versus Oriental Philosophy.

Postby Arminius » Fri Mar 11, 2016 12:03 am

Moreno wrote:It boils down to a much more casual sense of the individual self in the Oriental.

Please rephrase that.
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Re: Occidental Philosophy versus Oriental Philosophy.

Postby Arminius » Fri Mar 11, 2016 12:04 am

HaHaHa wrote:
Arminius wrote:There are great differences between the occidental philosophy and the oriental philosophy.

What do you think about this two kinds of philosophy, their differences and their similarities?

A sort of western versus eastern philosophical spectrum?

One can call it so as well, yes.
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Re: Occidental Philosophy versus Oriental Philosophy.

Postby Moreno » Fri Mar 11, 2016 7:22 am

Arminius wrote:
Moreno wrote:It boils down to a much more casual sense of the individual self in the Oriental.

Please rephrase that.
There has been a trend in occidental philosophy to the autonmous individual, with understanding considered having a good representation of reality inside the head. Emphasis on freedom of the monad self. Free from outside control, independently evaluating in a detached way the objective world that is outside it. This goes down from politics and up from ontology in the West. In the Orient the self it not considered separate. It is part of the family, it is merged or should merge with the object. The goal is not separateness, freedom from, but being well enmeshed.....in the family, in the environment, joining the flow. The self as meeting place, nexus. One must take into account the other in a dialogue. In the West expression of the unique individual in the moment. In the East engaged in harmonius dance in a long chain of history. Understanding is not contained in the East, but a doing, a relation.
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Re: Occidental Philosophy versus Oriental Philosophy.

Postby James S Saint » Fri Mar 11, 2016 11:19 am

Moreno wrote:
Arminius wrote:
Moreno wrote:It boils down to a much more casual sense of the individual self in the Oriental.

Please rephrase that.
There has been a trend in occidental philosophy to the autonmous individual, with understanding considered having a good representation of reality inside the head. Emphasis on freedom of the monad self. Free from outside control, independently evaluating in a detached way the objective world that is outside it. This goes down from politics and up from ontology in the West. In the Orient the self it not considered separate. It is part of the family, it is merged or should merge with the object. The goal is not separateness, freedom from, but being well enmeshed.....in the family, in the environment, joining the flow. The self as meeting place, nexus. One must take into account the other in a dialogue. In the West expression of the unique individual in the moment. In the East engaged in harmonius dance in a long chain of history. Understanding is not contained in the East, but a doing, a relation.

Holistic vs individualistic.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Occidental Philosophy versus Oriental Philosophy.

Postby Arminius » Fri Mar 11, 2016 11:50 am

Moreno wrote:
Arminius wrote:
Moreno wrote:It boils down to a much more casual sense of the individual self in the Oriental.

Please rephrase that.
There has been a trend in occidental philosophy to the autonmous individual, with understanding considered having a good representation of reality inside the head. Emphasis on freedom of the monad self. Free from outside control, independently evaluating in a detached way the objective world that is outside it. This goes down from politics and up from ontology in the West. In the Orient the self it not considered separate. It is part of the family, it is merged or should merge with the object. The goal is not separateness, freedom from, but being well enmeshed.....in the family, in the environment, joining the flow. The self as meeting place, nexus. One must take into account the other in a dialogue. In the West expression of the unique individual in the moment. In the East engaged in harmonius dance in a long chain of history. Understanding is not contained in the East, but a doing, a relation.

Agreed. The difference between the extreme individuality and the extreme community is one of the main differences between Occident and Orient.
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Re: Occidental Philosophy versus Oriental Philosophy.

Postby Arminius » Fri Mar 11, 2016 11:55 am

James S Saint wrote:
Moreno wrote:There has been a trend in occidental philosophy to the autonmous individual, with understanding considered having a good representation of reality inside the head. Emphasis on freedom of the monad self. Free from outside control, independently evaluating in a detached way the objective world that is outside it. This goes down from politics and up from ontology in the West. In the Orient the self it not considered separate. It is part of the family, it is merged or should merge with the object. The goal is not separateness, freedom from, but being well enmeshed.....in the family, in the environment, joining the flow. The self as meeting place, nexus. One must take into account the other in a dialogue. In the West expression of the unique individual in the moment. In the East engaged in harmonius dance in a long chain of history. Understanding is not contained in the East, but a doing, a relation.

Holistic vs individualistic.

Yes, one can also call it holism versus individualism.
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Re: Occidental Philosophy versus Oriental Philosophy.

Postby Moreno » Fri Mar 11, 2016 3:53 pm

Arminius wrote:Holistic vs individualistic.

Yes, one can also call it holism versus individualism.[/quote]
I was just thinking ecological reason vs. instrumental reason (which harks back to James's dichotomy)
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Re: Occidental Philosophy versus Oriental Philosophy.

Postby James S Saint » Fri Mar 11, 2016 7:24 pm

Moreno wrote:I was just thinking ecological reason vs. instrumental reason

Actually that is a good wording. The East usually involves a consideration of the whole picture, all inclusive, entire ecology whereas the West is generally concerned with how to accomplish a specific endeavor without regard to the whole. The East involves the entire simultaneous equation matrix whereas the West attempts to resolve each equation separately.

In general gender terms, the East is more feminine (wide visioned, "broad minded", "ecological") and the West more masculine (long visioned, "goal oriented", "instrumental").
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Occidental Philosophy versus Oriental Philosophy.

Postby Along The Way » Thu Mar 17, 2016 4:06 am

West = Will to Power, masculine, focus on autonomy, linear, goal oriented,
East = Will to Emptiness, feminine, focus on relational, cyclical, awareness oriented

I think the middle way is probably the best way, although over the years I've gravitated more towards the east because I was too caught up in western philosophy for so long.
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Re: Occidental Philosophy versus Oriental Philosophy.

Postby zinnat » Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:20 am

James S Saint wrote:
Moreno wrote:I was just thinking ecological reason vs. instrumental reason

Actually that is a good wording. The East usually involves a consideration of the whole picture, all inclusive, entire ecology whereas the West is generally concerned with how to accomplish a specific endeavor without regard to the whole. The East involves the entire simultaneous equation matrix whereas the West attempts to resolve each equation separately.

In general gender terms, the East is more feminine (wide visioned, "broad minded", "ecological") and the West more masculine (long visioned, "goal oriented", "instrumental").


True.

There is clear gender differentiation between the two. I realized this within some days when i got access to internet for the first time about 15 years ago. And, that is precisely the reason why most of the east was invaded by the west and lagged behind in innovation in technologies too.

East is happy in status quo, be there patiently at where it is. There is not much desire to change and progress. The emphasis is more on mere calm and easygoing survival. It would not change unless forced to do so. West is not satisfied with what it already has. It wants more and change too, whether it serves any purpose or not, true male character. Both thinking have their shares of pros and cons.

Though it is matter of debate which ideology is better, i still think that eastern approach is slightly better. Being hugely feminine in nature, it can withstand the onslaughts more effectively and easily. But, it could never become dominant.

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Re: Occidental Philosophy versus Oriental Philosophy.

Postby Arminius » Sun Mar 20, 2016 3:19 pm

Along The Way wrote:West = Will to Power, masculine, focus on autonomy, linear, goal oriented,
East = Will to Emptiness, feminine, focus on relational, cyclical, awareness oriented

I think the middle way is probably the best way, although over the years I've gravitated more towards the east because I was too caught up in western philosophy for so long.

It seems that you think it would be very easy to change between western and eastern philosophy. I do not think so. One can learn much about a philosophy of a foreign culture but not live it as if it were the philosophy of one's own culture (the culture in which one has grown up). The change between different national philosophies can already be a problem, so the change between greater different units like the western culture(s) and the eastern culture(s) is not as easy as one may think.
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Re: Occidental Philosophy versus Oriental Philosophy.

Postby CelineK » Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:11 am

Along The Way wrote:West = Will to Power, masculine, focus on autonomy, linear, goal oriented,
East = Will to Emptiness, feminine, focus on relational, cyclical, awareness oriented

I think the middle way is probably the best way, although over the years I've gravitated more towards the east because I was too caught up in western philosophy for so long.


the study of ancient eastern and western knowledge share common roots. I suggest that you google up 'mystery schools' .The same story comes into many flavors. I think the west has lost much of its holism during the great inquisition, this of course was one of the aims. As a result the feminine was lost. Western society and philosophy, lost their holistic metaphysical edge, became left brained as a result. And the left brain is very dominant.

most westerners smile or shrug at ancient knowledge, in the east they listen attentively. But mentalities are changing slowly on, now the philosophy of Aryuveda and Vedic Texts for example is gaining traction in the west. I agree that as long as man ignore his relation to the cosmos (as above so below), he will continue to wander.
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Re: Occidental Philosophy versus Oriental Philosophy.

Postby Moreno » Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:48 pm

James S Saint wrote:
Moreno wrote:I was just thinking ecological reason vs. instrumental reason

Actually that is a good wording. The East usually involves a consideration of the whole picture, all inclusive, entire ecology whereas the West is generally concerned with how to accomplish a specific endeavor without regard to the whole. The East involves the entire simultaneous equation matrix whereas the West attempts to resolve each equation separately.

In general gender terms, the East is more feminine (wide visioned, "broad minded", "ecological") and the West more masculine (long visioned, "goal oriented", "instrumental").
I am genuinely pleased by your response and hesitate to disturb a nice moment of agreement, but....could we not extrapolate the skill sets (overlapping) coming from these two forms of reason and imagine a team of two equals, one with the feminine reason and one with the masculine? (again not imagining a binary set up, but two people with the counterpoised tendencies/strengths . I assume you will know the thread/issue I am referring to. (while the coyote and the badger do not fit masculine and feminine roles, I would like to use their teamwork hunting as an example of two organisms with different skill sets can partner and it is not clear if at all one is dominant or superior to the other.)
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Re: Occidental Philosophy versus Oriental Philosophy.

Postby Along The Way » Wed Mar 23, 2016 6:52 am

Arminius wrote:
Along The Way wrote:West = Will to Power, masculine, focus on autonomy, linear, goal oriented,
East = Will to Emptiness, feminine, focus on relational, cyclical, awareness oriented

I think the middle way is probably the best way, although over the years I've gravitated more towards the east because I was too caught up in western philosophy for so long.

It seems that you think it would be very easy to change between western and eastern philosophy. I do not think so. One can learn much about a philosophy of a foreign culture but not live it as if it were the philosophy of one's own culture (the culture in which one has grown up). The change between different national philosophies can already be a problem, so the change between greater different units like the western culture(s) and the eastern culture(s) is not as easy as one may think.


I generally agree, and that's one of the reasons I have never adopted any sort of eastern spiritual path, let alone an eastern religion. Overall in my life I've read quite a bit more western philosophy than eastern philosophy, although the eastern philosophy I've read has been more my cup of tea. With that said, I have seen friends of mine go to far to the East, as if they were going to find salvation there, and have also listened to experts of eastern philosophy warn westerners of the dangers of adopting foreign ways of thinking that was not meant for them. At the end of the day, I enjoy the variety and balance that both western and eastern thought brings to me, while always reminding myself that I am a westerner. The West will always be my home, but the east is a great addition to my diet, so to speak.
CelineK wrote:
by CelineK » Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:11 am

Along The Way wrote:
West = Will to Power, masculine, focus on autonomy, linear, goal oriented,
East = Will to Emptiness, feminine, focus on relational, cyclical, awareness oriented

I think the middle way is probably the best way, although over the years I've gravitated more towards the east because I was too caught up in western philosophy for so long.


the study of ancient eastern and western knowledge share common roots. I suggest that you google up 'mystery schools' .The same story comes into many flavors. I think the west has lost much of its holism during the great inquisition, this of course was one of the aims. As a result the feminine was lost. Western society and philosophy, lost their holistic metaphysical edge, became left brained as a result. And the left brain is very dominant.

most westerners smile or shrug at ancient knowledge, in the east they listen attentively. But mentalities are changing slowly on, now the philosophy of Aryuveda and Vedic Texts for example is gaining traction in the west. I agree that as long as man ignore his relation to the cosmos (as above so below), he will continue to wander.
Re: Occidental Philosophy versus Oriental Philosophy.
by Arminius » Sun Mar 20, 2016 3:19 pm

Along The Way wrote:
West = Will to Power, masculine, focus on autonomy, linear, goal oriented,


Are what you have referred to as the "mystery schools" the same as the "wisdom traditions"? In that I mean Gnosticism, Sufism, Jewish Kabullah(sp?) and such? I know that all of the esoteric paths of all of the major religions have much in common, primarily when it comes to finding the kingdom of God/Enlightenment within oneself and in the moment, along with looking at scripture mythologically more than literally. I myself am extremely right brained/intuitive and introverted, which is probably a big reason I have found very little commonality with the culture I live in as well as enjoying Eastern though in general more than Western thought. Or I should say, I love the variety and balance that Eastern thought brings to me, in conjunction with western thought.
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Re: Occidental Philosophy versus Oriental Philosophy.

Postby Arminius » Thu May 19, 2016 12:18 am

Sex non-segregation is also a pure and typical occidental pheomenon.
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Re: Occidental Philosophy versus Oriental Philosophy.

Postby Arminius » Thu Aug 04, 2016 11:44 am

One Liner wrote:We have the expectation that they behave (function) according to how we view them and we never question our view when things don't work out how we expected them to.

There are a lot of "we'"s in your one liner, One Liner. :)

The Occidental culture is an "I"-culture, thus it is very much more individualistic than all other cultures. So in the Occidental culture the "I" is more considered than in all other cultures. But this does not mean that the Occidental culture does not comsider the "we" - it merely means that it considers the "I" much more than all other cultures do. And this is especially due to the reformation (protestantism) as Ierrellus and I have pointed out:

Arminius wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:The protestant reformation essentially established the I as having precedent over the we. It preached rugged individualism that has affected both religion and politics.

Martin Luther was a very intelligent person. (By the way: I am not Protestant but Catholic.) Now the average global intelligence is shrinking. Thus: such an intelligent reformation or even another reformation will probably not take place in the near future or in the future at all. Individualism has to do (although not only) with intelligence, intellectualism in the right sense. This means that we are facing an authoritarian social form of anti-individualism, anti-intelligence, and anti-intellectualism. Unfortunately. They will preach the "we" more than the "I". The "we" is important, yes, but the "I" is important as well.
Arminius wrote:Martin Luther appealed to the "I". The belief or faith should be a thing of the "I" and no longer of the "we", namely the church that exploited its believers, for example by indulgence, thus payments!
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