Is knowledge also a belief?

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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby Arminius » Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:50 pm

James S Saint wrote:
WW_III_ANGRY wrote:So that's interesting - is it a starting point? Why can't we be agnostic about our senses, to get started? Then agnostic precepts become justified empirically...

Nothing can empirically justify anything if even all the senses are in doubt. Any belief or "knowledge" must stem from a priori.

Yes. That is one of the main themes he does not understand. Unfortunately.
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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:05 pm

James S Saint wrote:Nothing can empirically justify anything if even all the senses are in doubt.


I disagree. But it depends on what justify is, justify as knowledge? Keep in mind that knowledge is only true until it is not true, but can be justified. As all knowledge is justified subjectively, ultimately. I already explained this previously. Thus, why I don't agree or accept how knowledge is necessarily truth.

James S Saint wrote:Any belief or "knowledge" must stem from a priori.


Sure, no problem there

James S Saint wrote:Interesting how atheists keep getting into that "something from nothing" problem in their attempt to deny precepts.


I am not sure what you're referring to. Having doubt of precepts is not denying them. Deny is a harsh word.
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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby Uccisore » Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:13 pm

phyllo wrote:You claim not to believe things and I am giving my reasons for why you are making the claim.


At the end of the day, when ANGRY says "belief" he means "unjustified certainty". He claims not to have any unjustified certainties, he claims knowledge is not an unjustified certainty. I told him a month ago that using the term in that way to say things like "I don't have any beliefs" would lead to endless confusion and people thinking he's out of his mind. It has been explained to him all the various reasons why his obtuse way of using the word isn't going to catch on outside the anti-theist circles where he picked it up.
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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby phyllo » Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:22 pm

At the end of the day, when ANGRY says "belief" he means "unjustified certainty". He claims not to have any unjustified certainties, he claims knowledge is not an unjustified certainty. I told him a month ago that using the term in that way to say things like "I don't have any beliefs" would lead to endless confusion and people thinking he's out of his mind. It has been explained to him all the various reasons why his obtuse way of using the word isn't going to catch on outside the anti-theist circles where he picked it up.
He jumps from non-knowing to knowing without an in-between state. That's how I would describe it.
He would probably say that there are only the two states of knowing or non-knowing.

Yet he manages to act in that non-knowing state as though he has reasonable knowledge or belief of what to do. How does he manage that? Will.
What's will in that situation? And how does will act without selecting between options?
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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:26 pm

Uccisore wrote:
phyllo wrote:You claim not to believe things and I am giving my reasons for why you are making the claim.


At the end of the day, when ANGRY says "belief" he means "unjustified certainty". He claims not to have any unjustified certainties, he claims knowledge is not an unjustified certainty. I told him a month ago that using the term in that way to say things like "I don't have any beliefs" would lead to endless confusion and people thinking he's out of his mind. It has been explained to him all the various reasons why his obtuse way of using the word isn't going to catch on outside the anti-theist circles where he picked it up.



You're getting closer, you are now reasonable - but not fully accurate. Somewhat of a half truth. Keep in mind my definition 1a: to have a firm religious faith b: to accept something as true, genuine, or real - in that acceptance is also a state of certainty, but not so much in that it is related to knowledge as one of the central points of this thesis, in that knowledge is understood, not "accepted" through justification. In that a state of knowing becomes, not a state of "belief" as defined in the OP and here.
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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:27 pm

phyllo wrote:
At the end of the day, when ANGRY says "belief" he means "unjustified certainty". He claims not to have any unjustified certainties, he claims knowledge is not an unjustified certainty. I told him a month ago that using the term in that way to say things like "I don't have any beliefs" would lead to endless confusion and people thinking he's out of his mind. It has been explained to him all the various reasons why his obtuse way of using the word isn't going to catch on outside the anti-theist circles where he picked it up.
He jumps from non-knowing to knowing without an in-between state. That's how I would describe it.
He would probably say that there are only the two states of knowing or non-knowing.

Yet he manages to act in that non-knowing state as though he has reasonable knowledge or belief of what to do. How does he manage that? Will.
What's will in that situation? And how does will act without selecting between options?


Jumping from Non knowing to knowing without an in between state? Isn't uncertainty and doubt an inbetween state? As opposed to your in between state, of belief, apparently?

I don't have an idea of what your second sentence means though.
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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby phyllo » Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:28 pm

in that knowledge is understood, not "accepted" through justification.
Again the word 'understood'. :evil:
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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby Uccisore » Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:31 pm

phyllo wrote:]He jumps from non-knowing to knowing without an in-between state. That's how I would describe it.
He would probably say that there are only the two states of knowing or non-knowing.


Yeah, that's one of the problems I pointed out a month ago. If 'belief' means 'unjustified certainty', it leaves us with a word vacuum for all those things we used to call beliefs that are neither unjustified, nor certain, nor knowledge.

Putting 'belief' on special reserve as a term to bash religious people with simply isn't sufficient motivation to overhaul epistemological vernacular, and he has no non-vernacular argument.
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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby phyllo » Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:31 pm

Jumping from Non knowing to knowing without an in between state? Isn't uncertainty and doubt an inbetween state? As opposed to your in between state, of belief, apparently?
So you are just substituting uncertainty and doubt for belief.

So then knowledge is true justified doubt?
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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:32 pm

phyllo wrote:
in that knowledge is understood, not "accepted" through justification.
Again the word 'understood'. :evil:


Lets revisit what it is to understand. Knowing that 1+1=2 is a matter of understanding what 1+1=2 represents, how numbers and math function conceptually and what it represents. Perhaps I'm not clear enough here...
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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:33 pm

Uccisore wrote:
phyllo wrote:]He jumps from non-knowing to knowing without an in-between state. That's how I would describe it.
He would probably say that there are only the two states of knowing or non-knowing.


Yeah, that's one of the problems I pointed out a month ago. If 'belief' means 'unjustified certainty', it leaves us with a word vacuum for all those things we used to call beliefs that are neither unjustified, nor certain, nor knowledge.

Putting 'belief' on special reserve as a term to bash religious people with simply isn't sufficient motivation to overhaul epistemological vernacular, and he has no non-vernacular argument.


Please don't put your assumptions of how I define words in my mouth and use it as a claim of me having "no non-vernacular argument"
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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:37 pm

phyllo wrote:
Jumping from Non knowing to knowing without an in between state? Isn't uncertainty and doubt an inbetween state? As opposed to your in between state, of belief, apparently?
So you are just substituting uncertainty and doubt for belief.

So then knowledge is true justified doubt?


I suppose you can say I'm substituting uncertainty and doubt for belief, not exactly what you said.

Now, I am also separating the acceptance of belief to the understanding and state of knowing in knowledge, which would lead us that knowledge is a familiarity, awareness or understanding of someone or something, such as facts, information, descriptions, or skills, which is acquired through experience or education by perceiving, discovering, or learning.
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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby Arminius » Thu Mar 31, 2016 4:48 pm

Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:Newton physics is true, in the sense that it exists. Newton physics exists and can predict some things, so in that sphere it is true. Is is false at the atomic level of things, so Newton physics is not a valid model of the universe.

The atomic level of things is also called microphysics. So there is macrophysics too. And Newton's physics is not true in both microphysics and macrophysics, but it is true in mesophysics.
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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby Arminius » Thu Mar 31, 2016 4:49 pm

WW_III_ANGRY wrote:
James S Saint wrote:It all still appears to be merely a question of confidence.
If you are greatly confident, you say that you "know". If not so confident, you say that you "believe". The problem is where to draw the line.

Exactly where is the line between greatly confident knowledge and not so greatly confident belief? How do you distinguish when you know versus when you merely believe?

They once "knew" that the laws of Newton were "fact". They had scientifically measured them. But a hundred years later... oops...


There may be a question of confidence - but there is also a matter of justification for knowledge and belief.

Can someone have the same confidence of a belief as knowledge? I contest they can.

That is a rhetorical question with a rehetorical answer, because James already said: "If you are greatly confident, you say that you 'know'. If not so confident, you say that you 'believe'. The problem is where to draw the line. James is right. There is nothing to add, and there is especially nothing to change by using rhetorical questions and answers.

WW_III_ANGRY wrote:
James S Saint wrote:So if you see it, it is knowledge?

No. I already laid that out in a previous post there.

Where?

Sources?

Links?

WW_III_ANGRY wrote:Maybe you want to reread it before logic testing me? It seems like a waste of time to go back to things I already covered.

Rhetoric! Otherwise he would have given evidence, sources or at least links to that post.
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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby Arminius » Thu Mar 31, 2016 4:51 pm

CelineK wrote:knowledge is knowledge when directly dictated by immutable Natural Laws, anything else are beliefs

I guess that you mean the laws of mseophysics, thus not those of microphysics and macrophysics. But even then, if you mean the mesophysical laws, it is not possible to be 100% sure. Knowledge about mesophysical laws has a likelihood of about 98-99% truth. The primary task of our senses and brains is not to know complicated laws but to support our surviving.

CelineK wrote:One never should trust completely a perception.

Yes, that is true, but one should also not completely mistrust a perception. :P
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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:22 pm

phyllo

ANGRY WROTE:

I claimed not to believe things because I have developed a discipline of weeding out belief in my life, becoming agnostic about more things than would be considered normal and by obtaining knowledge.


phyllo wrote:

I think that is a rationalization which is used to satisfy your ego.


Perhaps ANGRY might have said AUTOMATICALLY believe things.
Why does this have to be a rationalization on his part, phyllo?
If the man does in fact use this method to weed out automatic belief, to examine things and not to automatically accept things based on faith and on the belief of others, how is that rationalizing and satisfying his ego?
That's the way of the agnostic, the skeptic.
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

Immanuel Kant
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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby Artimas » Fri Apr 01, 2016 8:46 pm

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle

Skepticism ^

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby phyllo » Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:53 pm

Perhaps ANGRY might have said AUTOMATICALLY believe things.
Why does this have to be a rationalization on his part, phyllo?
If the man does in fact use this method to weed out automatic belief, to examine things and not to automatically accept things based on faith and on the belief of others, how is that rationalizing and satisfying his ego?
That's the way of the agnostic, the skeptic.
Think about it. People tell you things all day long. Friends, spouse, children, the news media (TV, radio, newspapers, magazines). You don't verify most of that stuff. It's not knowledge. Can you imagine being agnostic about it? How would you function and make decisions?
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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby Artimas » Sat Apr 02, 2016 11:32 am

phyllo wrote:
Perhaps ANGRY might have said AUTOMATICALLY believe things.
Why does this have to be a rationalization on his part, phyllo?
If the man does in fact use this method to weed out automatic belief, to examine things and not to automatically accept things based on faith and on the belief of others, how is that rationalizing and satisfying his ego?
That's the way of the agnostic, the skeptic.
Think about it. People tell you things all day long. Friends, spouse, children, the news media (TV, radio, newspapers, magazines). You don't verify most of that stuff. It's not knowledge. Can you imagine being agnostic about it? How would you function and make decisions?


A lot of it isn't knowledge, mostly bull crap. I see your point, my view so far from being on Earth 22 years is that true knowledge is rare when it just comes to you randomly, but not as rare when you seek it, it is still rare though. That's why knowledge is power, if everyone had it I would imagine power would not exist or just wouldn't be considered power anymore.

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Sat Apr 02, 2016 2:41 pm

phyllo wrote:
Perhaps ANGRY might have said AUTOMATICALLY believe things.
Why does this have to be a rationalization on his part, phyllo?
If the man does in fact use this method to weed out automatic belief, to examine things and not to automatically accept things based on faith and on the belief of others, how is that rationalizing and satisfying his ego?
That's the way of the agnostic, the skeptic.
Think about it. People tell you things all day long. Friends, spouse, children, the news media (TV, radio, newspapers, magazines). You don't verify most of that stuff. It's not knowledge. Can you imagine being agnostic about it? How would you function and make decisions?


We're not speaking of everyday mundane things here, phyllo. We're speaking of things which are more meaningful to discuss let's say, like in a philosophy forum :wink: ; namely, religious beliefs, scientific theories, et cetera. or to simply muse about while withholding any kind of judgment. For instance, when I look up at the sky, in daylight or darkness, I sometimes muse and wonder about the concept of god. How can one not? (That's kind of a bias there - or is it?) but that doesn't mean that I accept the belief systems[s] of many.
We don't need to clutter our minds with everything.

At the same time, I am agnostic of much which I hear about in the media or even of the tales of my friends - but I don't delve into it. We choose our meaning.
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

Immanuel Kant
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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Sat Apr 02, 2016 2:44 pm

Artimas,

That's why knowledge is power, if everyone had it I would imagine power would not exist or just wouldn't be considered power anymore.


Look at ILP. Could you use another word for the so-called power which stems from the knowledge in here?
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

Immanuel Kant
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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby phyllo » Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:49 pm

We're not speaking of everyday mundane things here, phyllo.
Yes, we are. WW3A has made no distinction between mundane and non-mundane.

And is a news report on Syria a mundane thing? The lives of thousands of people will be affected by what you believe about that report.

It also seems odd that by simply classifying some things as non-mundane, you stop having beliefs about them. Can the mind maintain such rigid boundaries of thought?
We're speaking of things which are more meaningful to discuss let's say, like in a philosophy forum :wink: ; namely, religious beliefs, scientific theories, et cetera. or to simply muse about while withholding any kind of judgment.
You can withhold all judgements in a philosophy forum because the place is basically irrelevant.

In real life, you have to act on beliefs and knowledge. A scientist is not going to be agnostic about a theory in his field of study. It's not practical to approach it in that way.
We choose our meaning.
Can you choose any meaning that you want? Surely not.
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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby Moreno » Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:02 pm

Again. Language is for us. If you do not want to work with the idea that knowledge is a specific subset of beliefs, don't. There are good reasons to do this. But we have freedom with language. To say that it is wrong to think of it this way is silly. Just to summarize:
WW_III_ANGRY wrote:Is everything that is considered knowledge also a belief?
Some people do this. I think it is a good idea. I will explain below.
If so - why wouldn't we dissociate knowledge from belief?
I think a better word is 'distinguish' rather than dissociate. We do distinguish knowledge from other beliefs, those of us who use something like the JTB idea.

If knowledge is justified, true, and also thought to be as certain as one is certain of a belief, would that mean that belief is not justified, not necessarily true, but thought to be certain?

Knowledge would be considered a subset of beliefs. It would be beliefs that pass some kind of evaluation. Just like in science when something moves from hypothesis to theory, say. Beliefs can be of a variety of kinds. Some are weakly justified. Some are believed because of habit or tradition. Some are more strongly justified, but do not reach the cutoff point where something is called knowledge.

"Seeing is believing", a common phrase most of us have probably heard. But not if you understand that perception is flawed, seeing may not be believing for all. At times, seeing may be knowing, through certain justifications. As someone who has seen many things that weren't real, I disagree that seeing is believing or that some simple generalization of knowledge and belief should occur. Nor do I agree that knowing is a belief.
In systems where it is considered a belief it is consider a kind of belief. There is the set of US coins. Only the dime will fit in the slot for dimes. It is a coin, but this does not mean that all coins have the same qualities that dimes have.

Knowledge could be considered, also, a set of ideas.

If you have an idea that the sun is made of oats, this does not mean it is a good idea. It is however a conception you have.
If you have the idea that the earth rotates around the sun, this is also an idea. In this case however the justification may well be better and may qualify as knowledge.



I contest that knowledge is not belief, that belief is not knowledge. Plato described knowledge as "Justified true belief". However, would that in turn mean that belief is not justified and possibly not true?
That is correct beliefs may no be correct.


I contest that belief is never justified.
You are making this all binary. No justication, complete and absolute justification. That has no place in the real world and would mean that you do not believe in scientific methodology, for example. In science you can have something that has some support for it. It fits with current models. Some reseach results (seem to or do) support the hypotheis. But not enough for the scientific community to accept that it is true. Not big enough samples, some questiosn about other possible factors, etc. There is some justification, but not enough.

If I believe that women are mean because, through poor luck, say, the women I have known are mean, this is some justification. Just not enough to pass the cut off for scientific knowledge. We may look at a person and feels superior, but in fact many of our beliefs and even what many of us consider knowledge is similar, we just have higher cutoffs, but it still would not pass scientific muster.

There are gradations of justification. There is not perfect justification and knowledge today may not be tomorrow.


I contest that understanding, logic and reason is the prerequisite for knowledge.

That does NOT IN ANY WAY CONTRADICT USING knowlege as a subset of belief. Knowledge, for example, could be considered those beliefs that are arrived at via understandin, logic and reason.


Once that is obtained, a state of knowing "becomes". I don't agree that it is a state of "believing". While knowing and believing in the mind may be of the same"feeling" that something is true, I do not think conflation of belief and knowledge is acceptable for these concepts, nor do I find it comprehensible to think that it is acceptable upon deeper analysis.
but not conflation is taking place. None. Zero. Zip.

We have the set of mammals. This does not mean that all mammals can fly even though bats can.
See???????
Even though bats are mammals, they also have certain specific characteristics that allow them to fly.
This does not mean ANYONE HERE IS SUGGESTING THAT PIGS CAN FLY.

This is not just of a epistemological concern, but also a linguistical concern.
There is no reason to be concerned epistemologically. One can still be as rigorous as one likes if one works with knowledge as a subset of beliefs. One can be unbelievably skeptical and demanding in relation to all beliefs. And one can still have a set of knowledge one is satisfied with that distinguished this set from other beliefs that do not pass muster and do not get to be called knowledge.

No philosopher who uses, for example, jtb conflates knowledge with belief in the sense you are concerned with.

In the set of drivers, there are forumal one professional drivers. These people can do things that the larger set of drivers cannot do.
In the set of letters, there are vowels. When we say that vowels are letters this does not mean that T is a vowel.
Think of some idiot on the internet who is a writer. He writes. He is in the set of writers. This does not mean we conflate him with Tolstoy.
We have CRITERIA we use to create a subset.
One of the reason philosophy focuses on belief is because philosophy takes nothing for granted. So we have to begin at the experiential level. The individual who believes. Lay people can focus on knowledge and beliefs in the abstract, not in situ, and wax knowledgeable about which is which (always with great certainty). In situ the person who believes X is true has reached that conclusion through a variety of processes. Some good, some bad. So we look at the justification process and make determinations.

Many people use reason and logic to arrive at beliefs that are not correct. Perhaps one of their basic assumptions is not correct.

People reported rogue waves for a long time and scientists dismissed them as incorrect. The scientists justified their belief based on then current oceanography and other scientific models. They justified their beliefs on the knowledge that emotions can affect perception. IN this case they were wrong. They had some justification for saying that the people reporting rogue waves were exaggerating. But as it turns out not enough justification.

You want everything in two nice separate boxes. Here we have the knowledge box where everything is the product of absolute reason and logic. Here we have the belief box where everything is based on faith and has no justification.

That is not the real world. The real world, in situ, has degrees of justification. And even rigorously arrived at, well justified beliefs that become part of scientific consensus have turned out to be incorrect. Even that. They were justified, but it turns out not justified enough. The great thing about science is that BUILT INTO THE CORE IDEA OF SCIENCE IS REVISION, WHICH
NECESSARILY
ENTAILS
THE IDEA
THAT IT IS NOT BINARY
BUT IN FACT
WE ARE DEALING WITH
DEGREES/GRADATIONS OF JUSTIFICATION.

Of course you are free to use the words the way you want. I do not consider you wrong for using them that way.
I don't think it is the best use in a philosophical context, but that is a different issue.
To think that we are wrong for using it our way, that's loopy.
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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby Uccisore » Sat Apr 02, 2016 11:28 pm

The horse has been led to water, gentlemen.
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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby Artimas » Sun Apr 03, 2016 1:46 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:Artimas,

That's why knowledge is power, if everyone had it I would imagine power would not exist or just wouldn't be considered power anymore.


Look at ILP. Could you use another word for the so-called power which stems from the knowledge in here?


Well there are a few other factors you see, some of it is not knowledge, maybe even a lot of it isn't, some of it is hard to comprehend as well. True knowledge is rare, I don't know what we would call it if it were so common. Perhaps just skills for benefitting the self?

Power in my perspective is when you can change things outside of yourself... of which normally you have little to no control over, but at the same time the self will change as well.

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Artimas
Emancipator of ignorance and also Chameleon upon the stars
 
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