Is knowledge also a belief?

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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Mon Mar 14, 2016 10:11 pm

Uccisore wrote:
WW_III_ANGRY wrote:If you want me to call those religions belief systems fine, it doesn't matter to me. You should have understood that without having me to explain it.


How is anybody supposed to be able to distinguish the sloppy, imprecise wording that we can ignore from the sloppy, imprecise wording you rely upon to make your case? "Religion is a belief" is no more or less silly than "Gettier showed disproved that knowledge is JTB" or "Belief is never justified" or half the other things you say that are actually key to your position.

Besides you didn't address my argument in any manner that negated it, you didn't give me a reason that was compelling to ditch this framework I am providing.


I don't care if you ditch it or not. Feel free to talk in funny ways that nobody else will understand all you want. What needs to happen is you need to provide reasons why other people should adopt your framework, and yes I did give you plenty of reasons why that won't be happening.


Sorry the words I used were defined not by me. If you have a superior grasp on English compared to the sources I cited perhaps you should create your own dictionary. I'm sure it'll be reflective of how English speaking users everywhere utilize it.
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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Mon Mar 14, 2016 10:12 pm

Uccisore wrote:
WW_III_ANGRY wrote:Anything you post on the internet, someone will always be annoyed with it. Someone somewhere, will find it annoying, no matter what.













"The credit belongs to the man, who is actually in the arena, who strives valiantly, who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best, knows the triumph of high achievement; and who at the worst, if he fails, fails while daring greatly so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat." - Theodore Roosevelt


Such heart-felt self-applause. You are truly a hero in your own eyes.


Do you believe that or do you know it? I know better ;)
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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby Uccisore » Mon Mar 14, 2016 10:17 pm

WW_III_ANGRY wrote:Sorry the words I used were defined not by me. If you have a superior grasp on English compared to the sources I cited perhaps you should create your own dictionary. I'm sure it'll be reflective of how English speaking users everywhere utilize it.


Oh, you were presenting a survey of how English speakers use words? My mistake, I thought you were doing philosophy. Anyway, this is all been addressed time and again, and you've ignored it.
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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby Arminius » Mon Mar 14, 2016 10:18 pm

Uccisore wrote:
Arminius wrote:Good question. .... Hmmm .... Should one just ignore him? .... Probably .... However: It sucks very much.


Well, epistemology is one of my favorite subjects and it doesn't come up often. So yeah, it sucks a lot. One thing I noticed is when you said "knowledge is a type of information' you were using it in a slightly different way. There 'knowledge' which means something like 'facts'. and then there's knowledge that means something like 'being aware of (certain of?) a fact.'. Maybe a slightly more precise way to have worded the OP would be 'Is knowing also a belief?'.

Yes. Or: Do belief and knowledge have the same root(s)?
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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Mon Mar 14, 2016 10:20 pm

Uccisore wrote:
WW_III_ANGRY wrote:Sorry the words I used were defined not by me. If you have a superior grasp on English compared to the sources I cited perhaps you should create your own dictionary. I'm sure it'll be reflective of how English speaking users everywhere utilize it.


Oh, you were presenting a survey of how English speakers use words? My mistake, I thought you were doing philosophy. Anyway, this is all been addressed time and again, and you've ignored it.


Yes your mistake, it was both.
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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby Uccisore » Mon Mar 14, 2016 10:27 pm

Arminius wrote:Yes. Or: Do belief and knowledge have the same root(s)?


Yeah that works. In any event, it's too easy of a question to answer for somebody that doesn't have some nonrational motivation to make it complex. The whole 'Belief is what religious people do, good people don't have beliefs' angle he took it is what cinched it for me. So far as I am aware, there is no intellectual space outside of Dawkins' cult of personality in which statements like "I don't have any beliefs" aren't nonsense.

Obviously knowing is a type of belief as belief is defined, if the question is does knowing become something so quantitatively different from a belief that it should no longer be considered a belief is just semantic.
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Re: Do belief and knowledge have the same root(s)?

Postby Arminius » Sun Mar 20, 2016 3:55 pm

WW_III_ANGRY wrote:We easily say that " I believe its 10th street" when we actually mean "it might be 10th street".

People throw around the word belief too loosely.

You could just as well say it the other way around (but you just do not want to):

We easily say that "it might be 10th street" when we actually mean "I believe it is 10th street".

People throw around the word "might" too loosely.
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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby Arminius » Sun Mar 20, 2016 3:58 pm

Your enemies are the words "belief" and "believe", probably also the words "religion", "theism", "God".

You opened your thread because you believed that you can easily kill certain words or at least their meanings.

There is nothing that proves your statements. Again: Your statements are ridiculous. So they are not suitable for changing anything of the epistemology or anything else.
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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby Moreno » Sun Mar 20, 2016 6:38 pm

WW_III_ANGRY wrote:
We easily say that " I believe its 10th street" when we actually mean "it might be 10th street".

People throw around the word belief too loosely.


If I say I believe it's 10th street, I would generally not mean, it might be.

Might means possiblity. I am not saying what I think is the case if I say might be.

If I say I believe it is tenth street, I think it is, but I am not sure. Or I am English and I know damn well it is but I am correcting someone gently, though perhaps more cruelly.

People USE the word belief loosely precisely because it means a wide range of things. In everyday language. This is mirrored in philosophy by taking it to mean what someone considers to be true, however they arrived at that belief.

If you want to argue that you KNOW certain things and that this is different from belief, this leads to all sorts of philosophical problems. For one, it means your belief in that case cannot be revised. It is final. You cannot possibly be deluded, whatever scientific research it is based on will never be revised or superceded, you are not in a simulation, you are not remembering incorrectly and so on.

I think most people who disagree with you here fully understand that belief can be used to refer specifically to religious type beliefs or what gets called superstition.

But 1) that is not the limit of everyday usage. 2) this is a philosophy forum and in philosophy you are quite incorrect 3) IT DOES NOT FUCKING ENTAIL THAT RELIGIOUS BELIEFS ARE THE SAME AS BELIEFS ARRIVED AT VIA SCIENCE 4) there are very good practical and logical reasons that the philosophical community had decided to refer to knowledge as a specific rigorously arrived at subset of beliefs. They do this, and miraculously, this does not mean that atheist philosophers must suddenly consider old testement assertions as the same as your doctor's or the latest nobel prize winner when she is talking about her research findings.

You are used to using Beliefs in a certain way, but I will bet that you don't challenge people IRL when they use believe broadly. In any case there is no reason to.

You are triggered by the word. It makes you feel like you are conceding something, conflating two categories WHEN IT SIMPLY DOES NOT DO THIS.

If you have a club where you decide that belief believe will only mean X, fine have that club. You would not be wrong. You would have an agreed upon use, clear in context. But in a philosophy forum to go on and on claiming that it is wrong to consider knowledge a specific kind of belief when there are good reasons to do this and these have been explained to you and further THIS IS A CLUB, the philosophical community, and they have decided to use the terms in a way they find useful.

NOT A DAMN THING IS BEING TAKEN AWAY FROM YOU.

In fact you are being offered a different was of using terms that you might use WHEN IN PHILOSOPHICAL CONTEXTS, just as we speak and write differently in different contexts all the time . Or you can decide you will never ever do this thing that makes you so uncomfortable. That's fine. Language is for us. I for one do not care how you use the words, unless we get into a discussion of epistemology and even then I can work with you as long as we define terms.

But you seem not to be able to live with other people using the terms this way.

And I believe that is ridiculous.
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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby Uccisore » Sun Mar 20, 2016 6:47 pm

Moreno nailed it.
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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby CelineK » Sun Mar 20, 2016 7:58 pm

too long to read the whole thread:

Knowledge is perception since it is infinite. One never should trust completely a perception. Reality is ever changing since thought is projection. But right, what I am saying is a belief in itself. LOL

Allow the illusion to serve you, not being a victim of it.
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Re: Do belief and knowledge have the same root(s)?

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:44 pm

Arminius wrote:
WW_III_ANGRY wrote:We easily say that " I believe its 10th street" when we actually mean "it might be 10th street".

People throw around the word belief too loosely.

You could just as well say it the other way around (but you just do not want to):

We easily say that "it might be 10th street" when we actually mean "I believe it is 10th street".

People throw around the word "might" too loosely.


I don't think that's the case. Saying "I believe it is 10th street" to someone usually means " I don't know it's 10th street, I think its 10th street though", does it not? Otherwise, someone who knows it's 10th street would say "It's 10th street". Very confidently. The good thing about this example is, there is usually no cognitive biases wrapped up around this issue of finding something, usually. So its pretty simple. I don't think people throw the word "might" around too loosely. Seems you're just being contrarian to engage in sophistry
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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:57 pm

Moreno wrote:
WW_III_ANGRY wrote:
We easily say that " I believe its 10th street" when we actually mean "it might be 10th street".

People throw around the word belief too loosely.


If I say I believe it's 10th street, I would generally not mean, it might be.

Might means possiblity. I am not saying what I think is the case if I say might be.

If I say I believe it is tenth street, I think it is, but I am not sure. Or I am English and I know damn well it is but I am correcting someone gently, though perhaps more cruelly.

People USE the word belief loosely precisely because it means a wide range of things. In everyday language. This is mirrored in philosophy by taking it to mean what someone considers to be true, however they arrived at that belief.

If you want to argue that you KNOW certain things and that this is different from belief, this leads to all sorts of philosophical problems. For one, it means your belief in that case cannot be revised. It is final. You cannot possibly be deluded, whatever scientific research it is based on will never be revised or superceded, you are not in a simulation, you are not remembering incorrectly and so on.

I think most people who disagree with you here fully understand that belief can be used to refer specifically to religious type beliefs or what gets called superstition.

But 1) that is not the limit of everyday usage. 2) this is a philosophy forum and in philosophy you are quite incorrect 3) IT DOES NOT FUCKING ENTAIL THAT RELIGIOUS BELIEFS ARE THE SAME AS BELIEFS ARRIVED AT VIA SCIENCE 4) there are very good practical and logical reasons that the philosophical community had decided to refer to knowledge as a specific rigorously arrived at subset of beliefs. They do this, and miraculously, this does not mean that atheist philosophers must suddenly consider old testement assertions as the same as your doctor's or the latest nobel prize winner when she is talking about her research findings.

You are used to using Beliefs in a certain way, but I will bet that you don't challenge people IRL when they use believe broadly. In any case there is no reason to.

You are triggered by the word. It makes you feel like you are conceding something, conflating two categories WHEN IT SIMPLY DOES NOT DO THIS.

If you have a club where you decide that belief believe will only mean X, fine have that club. You would not be wrong. You would have an agreed upon use, clear in context. But in a philosophy forum to go on and on claiming that it is wrong to consider knowledge a specific kind of belief when there are good reasons to do this and these have been explained to you and further THIS IS A CLUB, the philosophical community, and they have decided to use the terms in a way they find useful.

NOT A DAMN THING IS BEING TAKEN AWAY FROM YOU.

In fact you are being offered a different was of using terms that you might use WHEN IN PHILOSOPHICAL CONTEXTS, just as we speak and write differently in different contexts all the time . Or you can decide you will never ever do this thing that makes you so uncomfortable. That's fine. Language is for us. I for one do not care how you use the words, unless we get into a discussion of epistemology and even then I can work with you as long as we define terms.

But you seem not to be able to live with other people using the terms this way.

And I believe that is ridiculous.


The word belief does mean a lot of different things of course, and usually when people do say " I believe... (insert possible truth)" they are expressing uncertainty - unless it is their doctrine/religion, opinion, or values in which certainty is more prevalent.

"If you want to argue that you KNOW certain things and that this is different from belief, this leads to all sorts of philosophical problems. For one, it means your belief in that case cannot be revised"

I disagree, as I mentioned knowledge does not necessarily mean truth, it is dynamic. The difference between belief and knowledge is justification. What that justification entails is reason, awareness, logic, understanding. Vague yes, but belief doesn't include those justifications. Belief is either uncertainty (not the type of belief we are discussing in this thread - or certainty - this is the type of belief we are discussing in this thread). With knowledge, there is justification for certainty, with belief, there is not. With knowledge being dynamic and not necessarily truth we have a reasonable categorization of how we understand how we think, what our limits are and also an allusion to truth being mildly elusive perhaps, at least among qualia.

Please note religion is really irrelevant to this conversation. We are talking about certainty of truth with knowledge and belief and the difference. Religions are irrelevant, science is irrelevant. Justification is and what proper justification is needed is a far more complex matter - keep in mind this is a basic framework.

I don't know what you mean I am "triggered by the word". It makes me feel like I am conceding something? I have nothing to concede if I don't think things are truth without proper justification that entails it to be knowledge. So what of it? I don't know why you are getting emotional here though - I never claimed anything is being taken from me. I do think this belief/knowledge dilution may contribute to people not thinking logically or reasonably. It makes it ok to belief things are real or true without proper justification somewhat, it may lead to people not parsing their own thoughts properly.
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Re: Do belief and knowledge have the same root(s)?

Postby Arminius » Mon Mar 21, 2016 8:06 pm

WW_III_ANGRY wrote:
Arminius wrote:
WW_III_ANGRY wrote:We easily say that " I believe its 10th street" when we actually mean "it might be 10th street".

People throw around the word belief too loosely.

You could just as well say it the other way around (but you just do not want to):

We easily say that "it might be 10th street" when we actually mean "I believe it is 10th street".

People throw around the word "might" too loosely.


I don't think that's the case. Saying "I believe it is 10th street" to someone usually means " I don't know it's 10th street, I think its 10th street though", does it not? Otherwise, someone who knows it's 10th street would say "It's 10th street". Very confidently.

That has nothing to with what I was talking about.

It is true that:
You could just as well say it the other way around (but you just do not want to):

We easily say that "it might be 10th street" when we actually mean "I believe it is 10th street".

People throw around the word "might" too loosely.


WW_III_ANGRY wrote:The good thing about this example is, there is usually no cognitive biases wrapped up around this issue of finding something, usually. So its pretty simple. I don't think people throw the word "might" around too loosely.

It was an example, the reversed example of yours, and I could have given many other examples too. The sentence "people throw the word 'might' around too loosely" is as correct or incorrect as the sentence "people throw the word 'belief' around too loosely". That was what I was saying.

Seems you are just being contrarian to engage in sophistry.

WW_III_ANGRY wrote:Seems you're just being contrarian to engage in sophistry

Seems you do not know what you are talking about.
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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby Arminius » Mon Mar 21, 2016 8:59 pm

"Ich glaube" in German means "I believe" in English, and "Ich denke" in German means "I think" in English. Since the late 1960s, certain German people have been fighting a "word battle"; the reason for it is the goal that "Ich denke" shall be used instead of "Ich glaube" which shall die out; the people shall believe that they think and shall not notice that they believe and not think; in this way new believers shall be bred, namely those who do not think / know that they believe but nevertheless believe that they think / know.

Brainwashing.
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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Mon Mar 21, 2016 9:05 pm

Arminius wrote:"Ich glaube" in German means "I believe" in English, and "Ich denke" in German means "I think" in English. Since the late 1960s, certain German people have been fighting a "word battle"; the reason for it is the goal that "Ich denke" shall be used instead of "Ich glaube" which shall die out; the people shall believe that they think and shall not notice that they believe and not think; in this way new believers shall be bred, namely those who do not think / know that they believe but nevertheless believe that they think / know.

Brainwashing.


Do you have any references for this? I think people don't notice now whether they believe or know, that's the problem with the world and a little better clarity on belief and knowledge could help. A lot of that has to do with the what consists of understanding. As stated earlier, that's a bigger task at hand, but something epistemology has been doing with things here and there, in a manner that isn't really relayed to anyone. I already provided reasons why, I want a new theory of epistemology because I think people don't think cogently. I don't think they parse their thoughts very well, in particularly when dealing with things such as knowledge, truth and belief. These words are tossed around often and often they don't really mean what the person saying them actually means. Many times, people don't actually introspect well enough to actually understand if they hold a belief, or if they have justification for knowledge, or if they even know if something is true. It has been conflated and led to erroneous thoughts. Not only that, the field of epistemology has led to disseminating truth from belief more oft than showing the relation, in attitude as I mentioned, in our every day language. What else is there? So why should we hang on to JTB? I think we lose the true essence of knowledge and the true essence of belief by doing so and I think this schism could be a better way, if only we could get around the harshness this sounds to anyone who classifies knowledge as a subset of belief. If only we can get around the 2,000 years of epistemology building upon JTB, only to note the differences more so than anything, yet still hang on to JTB.

So, I hope we can gain more understanding of the essence of knowledge, belief, truth and opinion with this schism. Not only for ourselves as individuals, but maybe even for the field of epistemology.
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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby Arminius » Mon Mar 21, 2016 11:29 pm

WW_III_ANGRY wrote:
Arminius wrote:"Ich glaube" in German means "I believe" in English, and "Ich denke" in German means "I think" in English. Since the late 1960s, certain German people have been fighting a "word battle"; the reason for it is the goal that "Ich denke" shall be used instead of "Ich glaube" which shall die out; the people shall believe that they think and shall not notice that they believe and not think; in this way new believers shall be bred, namely those who do not think / know that they believe but nevertheless believe that they think / know.

Brainwashing.


Do you have any references for this?

Yes: my experience and studies.
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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:23 am

Arminius wrote:
WW_III_ANGRY wrote:
Arminius wrote:"Ich glaube" in German means "I believe" in English, and "Ich denke" in German means "I think" in English. Since the late 1960s, certain German people have been fighting a "word battle"; the reason for it is the goal that "Ich denke" shall be used instead of "Ich glaube" which shall die out; the people shall believe that they think and shall not notice that they believe and not think; in this way new believers shall be bred, namely those who do not think / know that they believe but nevertheless believe that they think / know.

Brainwashing.


Do you have any references for this?

Yes: my experience and studies.


Seems to be the opposite of what I am proposing. The goal is for the field of epistemology to get on board with how people think, and what the field already understands. Belief and knowledge have a discernable difference in attitude (certainty) and usage - justification, and mindset. In essence, everything about knowledge and belief becomes differentiated at an epistemological level - yet the categorization remains for no good reason it seems. The people are confused - people don't understand the difference between their beliefs and their knowledge - yet epistemology does - yet puts it in a nice box called belief. Yet its truth also. Yet its not.
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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby Arminius » Tue Mar 22, 2016 11:36 am

It is not difficult to find out which of the English speakers use the term "I think" or the term "I believe" how often, in which situations and with or without switching. Until the end of the 1960’s German speakers used the term "ich glaube" very much oftener than the term "ich denke" - maybe this ratio was 90 to 10. Since about 1990 certain German speakers have been using the term "ich denke" very much oftener than the term "ich glaube" - maybe this ratio is 99 to 1 (and for all German speakers maybe 80 to 20 or 70 to 30). So the ratio of the use of the terms "ich glaube" and "ich denke" has reversed within merely two decades (1970’s and 1980’s).
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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby Only_Humean » Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:16 pm

WW_III_ANGRY wrote:I see it as simply easiest to think that:

Belief is not knowledge, anything can believe anything they want without any justification whatsoever. Anything can be believed to be true.

Knowledge is not belief, proper justification, reason and logic is required, it a state of understanding, comprehension. Most of it is likely truth, however our subjective experience cannot allow us to say all knowledge is truth.


What's easiest is rarely what's right :) You can think that, but that's not how the words are used. You can state that that is how you use those words, but you don't really offer any reasons for others to agree.

Anyone can believe anything they want, without justification - this is true, but doesn't logically entail that all beliefs are unjustified. Why should we accept that a belief stops being a belief when it's justified, and not just become a firmer belief? Is "understanding" or "comprehending" an objective state, or is it a subjective feeling? Many people understood the universe as being heliocentric, and were equipped to judge others on their understanding of that... knowledge? Belief? Was it knowledge until disproved?

And is there nothing that you'd say you know that you haven't rationally and logically analysed and empirically verified? I don't believe that. Or maybe I know otherwise. ;)

Opinion is not a belief, but an extension of our values.


Another false dichotomy. "In his opinion, we should deport all foreigners" has no informational content different to "He believes we should deport all foreigners."

So, knowledge as belief, in the manner orthodoxy in academia is a misconception due to not separating what we already know, the mind in how it handles knowledge and belief. I suspect this has often been overlooked by many contemporary analytic philosophers because they do realize the mind handles belief and knowledge differently, yet we consider it a subset nonetheless.


Realise? That's a bold claim. As far as I'm aware, the mind handles them identically - wasn't this the point of Sam Harris' excursions into neuroscience?


People who believe in aliens, who believe 9/11 was an inside job, who believe in all sorts of conspiracy theories, or that aliens exist, get ridiculed incessantly, or that there are multiple gods. The problem is, when it comes to a belief in a widely accepted God, it’s sacred. No you can’t make fun of that. This is when the rules apply. I contest, criticism of beliefs is exactly what is needed.


If you want to approach philosophically as rigorously as you claim, it seems odd that you conflate such different concepts as "criticism of" with "making fun of".

When a believer is confronted with criticism, they will begin to shift their belief as knowledge. Suddenly, as a defense mechanism, they “know” that god exists. It’s no longer a claim that it is believed. Well that’s when things get hairy and cognitive dissonance kicks in. They begin willfully thinking that they believe God exists and know God exists at the same time. This causes them great discomfort and while engaging in a discussion about this, you will see their emotional pain rise out of this, they will get upset, they begin to feel attacked. These are all defense mechanisms for an ultimately inept way of thinking, conflating beliefs as knowledge.


Now you're claiming that the distinction you've just imposed on people is causing them cognitive dissonance? Do you not think it's more likely that people get emotionally invested in their worldview and fight to defend it against people who see things otherwise? This bit reads like the wrong end of the fedora Reddit new atheistsphere, and I'm pretty sure (or at least believe) that you don't belong there.

1. Knowledge is not a belief


Unproven at best.

2. Beliefs are not knowledge


Uncontroversial.

3. Religion, faith, Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Greek Mythology, Jainism, Taosim, are beliefs, not knowledge.


You're playing fast and loose with words, now, shifting definitions. In the sense of "something believed" vs. "something known" they're neither; they aren't statements, they're worldviews. Containing some accurate belief(-statement)s and some very weird ones.

People believe all sorts of crazy things, yet we should question them, criticize them, in a way that doesn’t hurt their ego, necessarily, however difficult that may be, but in a way that helps people think, to help them understand. When it comes to anything, don’t believe, just know that you do not know.


So where does "making fun of them" come into this? And now you neither believe nor know anything?
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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby James S Saint » Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:23 pm

Only_Humean wrote:Anyone can believe anything they want, without justification - this is true, but doesn't logically entail that all beliefs are unjustified. Why should we accept that a belief stops being a belief when it's justified, and not just become a firmer belief?

You answered your own question:
Only_Humean wrote:Anyone can believe anything they want, without justification

:wink:
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Tue Mar 22, 2016 3:15 pm

Only_Humean wrote:
What's easiest is rarely what's right :) You can think that, but that's not how the words are used. You can state that that is how you use those words, but you don't really offer any reasons for others to agree.


I'm not sure what you mean, that's not how the words are used by who? I provided definitions of belief and knowledge - those definitions do not require that knowledge be a subset of belief. So who doesn't use the definition I provided? Certainly some do, because I didn't make up the definition myself.

Anyone can believe anything they want, without justification - this is true, but doesn't logically entail that all beliefs are unjustified. Why should we accept that a belief stops being a belief when it's justified, and not just become a firmer belief? Is "understanding" or "comprehending" an objective state, or is it a subjective feeling? Many people understood the universe as being heliocentric, and were equipped to judge others on their understanding of that... knowledge? Belief? Was it knowledge until disproved?


I agree it doesn't logically entail that all beliefs are unjustified - that is my claim, that all beliefs are unjustified. Every instance of any belief that isn't considered "knowledge", is unjustified, as in it shouldn't be thought to be true. That being, belief is something that is thought to be true. Now there are many different senses of the word belief that can create muddiness and confusion, but let's refer to the sense I provided in my OP as that is what I am discussing. We can say "I believe torture is wrong" - as is the sense of it being an "opinion" - but I would state for the sake of clarity, "opinion", in this discourse is a better suited term to avoid confusion.
And is there nothing that you'd say you know that you haven't rationally and logically analysed and empirically verified? I don't believe that. Or maybe I know otherwise. ;)


Well - give me an example? Does all knowledge require empirical verification? I wouldn't think so. It can be straight logical necessity.


Another false dichotomy. "In his opinion, we should deport all foreigners" has no informational content different to "He believes we should deport all foreigners."


I would say it is not a false dichotomy in the sense of belief we are discussing in this OP. I understand what you are saying, but again I think you and others here are conflating multiple senses of the word belief that includes other senses of the word belief I didn't bring about as what I am referring to as belief in this thread. Please note again, that it is not my definition, I didn't make it up, it is one that is used by others.

Realise? That's a bold claim. As far as I'm aware, the mind handles them identically - wasn't this the point of Sam Harris' excursions into neuroscience?

It's a claim backed by epistemologists - I think Bertrand Russell may be one of them, not sure at this point but I addressed this in the OP, please see "attitude" in this thread (a quick word search from a browser on each page should bring it up nicely). Would be interested in Sam Harris' take on this matter if you have a link.


If you want to approach philosophically as rigorously as you claim, it seems odd that you conflate such different concepts as "criticism of" with "making fun of".


I don't see how what I said "made fun of" beliefs as opposed to criticized, but that doesn't really matter so much does it? Unless one has beliefs that any remarks of mine may have been cutting to a belief system maybe? In such I understand the harshness by some, against my thread here.

Now you're claiming that the distinction you've just imposed on people is causing them cognitive dissonance? Do you not think it's more likely that people get emotionally invested in their worldview and fight to defend it against people who see things otherwise? This bit reads like the wrong end of the fedora Reddit new atheistsphere, and I'm pretty sure (or at least believe) that you don't belong there.


Anyone emotionally invested in a world view that gets upset about defending it is highly suspect. There's a general rule of thumb, the first to rise to anger in debate has already shown they have lost. A knowledgeable mind, is calm and thoughtful. I regret jumping to the religious upshoot as I did, straight from the core of my thesis- I would prefer we put that behind us because it is only getting in the way of the greater thesis

You're playing fast and loose with words, now, shifting definitions. In the sense of "something believed" vs. "something known" they're neither; they aren't statements, they're worldviews. Containing some accurate belief(-statement)s and some very weird ones.

Keep in mind I provided the sense of belief I was referring to already.. see previous comments as well on this matter.


So where does "making fun of them" come into this? And now you neither believe nor know anything?


I neither believe, only know, and am filled with doubt and questions everywhere else. I have opinion's that aren't a matter of belief in the sense of belief I am referring to and I have knowledge that isn't a matter of belief in the sense I am referring to. I don't think it is ample to conflate all senses of belief into one giant sense and build an epistemic frame from it - definitions and use don't usually work that way, in our meanings. The multiple definitions we are all aware of are merely homonymous to the word belief; It seems people in general don't really understand that very well.
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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Tue Mar 22, 2016 4:45 pm

So what we have is this:

"Belief is the state of mind in which a person thinks something to be the case, with or without there being empirical evidence to prove that something is the case with factual certainty. In other words, belief is when someone thinks something is reality, true, when they have no absolute verified foundation for their certainty of the truth or realness of something"

I would say empirical evidence is not the sole justification for something to be knowledge of course, but a "verified foundation for certainty" is more apt to describe a state of knowledge in the mind.

I contest that belief is not the state of mind in which a person thinks something to be the case with there being empirical evidence to prove that something is the case with factual certainty. If that is the case, a state of mind that this would be is "knowing" and the difference in the state of mind between knowing and belief is separate, the attitude is different - marked by a calm confidence - which isn't an aspect of the state of mind in belief of something to be true without there being empirical evidence to prove that something is the case with factual certainty.

I would say belief is the state of mind in which a person thinks something to be the case without there being empirical evidence to prove that something is the case with factual certainty, or without a verified foundation for their certainty of the truth or realness of something.

"Knowledge and belief are not only distinct attitudes but they also have a distinct and proprietary objectives." - https://alochonaa.com/2014/04/23/what-i ... knowledge/
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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Tue Mar 22, 2016 8:57 pm

WW_III_ANGRY wrote:
James S Saint wrote:
WW_III_ANGRY wrote:The origin of the universe is not known. Since it is not known it is illogical to believe any possibility is true. It's an assumption.

So what is not an assumption? Examples?


1+1=2, we have eyes, etc

Knowledge is not an assumption.




Any so-called knowledge which has not been tried and proven and cannot be tried and proven IS an assumption or we might call it a theory but it is an assumption if we have already judged it to be true without proper evidence - whether or not it is true.
Our so-called subjective truths we see as knowledge but they can also be based on assumption - not facts. They are beliefs.

The Sun and everything else revolving around the Earth in the time of Copernicus was seen as knowledge but it too was an assumption.

The way I look at it, knowledge can only be a belief if it has not been proven. If we know something absolutely, based on absolute evidence, there can be no belief. Belief begins before examination/exploration - it is simply based on faith - faith on whatever hasn't been seen as of yet.

True knowledge, real knowledge.................
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

Immanuel Kant
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Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Tue Mar 22, 2016 9:08 pm

ANGRY,

[quote] I contest that belief is not a step towards knowledge.[/quote\

Really? Why do you say that? What about the scientists? You don't think that first they come to a conclusion in their thinking that something might be plausible or possible because of something which they have come to see, either by accident or deliberately? That's a form of belief. Without that beginning, how does knowledge come about? Belief is the cornerstone or part of the framework which is the structure upon which knowledge begins to take form or shape.

Belief is NOT knowledge but it is definitely a step toward knowledge though not all beliefs can give rise to knowledge, at least not "real" physical knowledge.
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

Immanuel Kant
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