Is knowledge also a belief?

This is the main board for discussing philosophy - formal, informal and in between.

Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby phyllo » Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:40 pm

b: to accept something as true, genuine, or real <ideals we believe in><believes in ghosts>


Please note the difference (in bold) between your usage and mine -
Yeah, I got that from your posts. Prior to attaining knowledge, you claim to be in a strange limbo state of doubt, "openness to options" and non-knowledge which you say is not belief.

I don't think that state exists nor is it possible for it to exist. I don't think that humans think that way. I think that action would be impossible in such a state.
phyllo
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 11902
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:41 am

Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:51 pm

phyllo wrote:
b: to accept something as true, genuine, or real <ideals we believe in><believes in ghosts>


Please note the difference (in bold) between your usage and mine -
Yeah, I got that from your posts. Prior to attaining knowledge, you claim to be in a strange limbo state of doubt, "openness to options" and non-knowledge which you say is not belief.

I don't think that state exists nor is it possible for it to exist. I don't think that humans think that way. I think that action would be impossible in such a state.


So why is that strange to you?

So Why do you not think that state exists nor is it possible for it to exist?

Let me ask you another question:

Do you think synesthesia is possible? If so, would you have thought it was possible without a report coming online without its depiction and assertion that it happens - or that it is already recognized and has its own term?

"Synesthesia is a neurological phenomenon in which stimulation of one sensory or cognitive pathway leads to automatic, involuntary experiences in a second sensory or cognitive pathway. People who report a lifelong history of such experiences are known as synesthetes. In one common form of synesthesia, known as grapheme-color synesthesia or color-graphemic synesthesia, letters or numbers are perceived as inherently colored.In spatial-sequence, or number form synesthesia, numbers, months of the year, and/or days of the week elicit precise locations in space (for example, 1980 may be "farther away" than 1990), or may appear as a three-dimensional map (clockwise or counterclockwise)." - wiki article on synesthesia

Difficulties have been recognized in adequately defining synesthesia:[5][6] Many different phenomena have been included in the term synesthesia ("union of the senses"), and in many cases the terminology seems to be inaccurate. A more accurate term may be ideasthesia."

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/autistic-sav ... d=10759598

Now I wouldn't have thought this was possible. It wouldn't have made any sense to me. I would've argued it, without seeing evidence of it. I hope I showed some evidence of why I don't believe things. But maybe not to you at least. Maybe to some? Hopefully to some. I already am aware that there is a person who I think highly of, that is more in tuned with academic philosophy than I am, who is not a member of this board, who described that to me that this has the possibility of becoming a valid theory. I'm not saying this is a product of autism, or anything else, but I do think it might be possible that you aren't wired to think that way. Of course, that I don't know. If so, that's fine. Not everyone is wired to think the same way. Not everyone can think the same way.
User avatar
WW_III_ANGRY
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3485
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:52 am

Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby phyllo » Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:03 pm

So why is that strange to you?

So Why do you not think that state exists nor is it possible for it to exist?
I told you. One will not act in a state where one cannot evaluate one action as better than another.

For example, you respond to a post with a specific interpretation of the poster's meaning. If you had no reasonable interpretation, then you would not respond. If you had multiple interpretations then you would have multiple responses in the form of "If you mean this, then my response is this. If you mean that, then my response is that.".

But you don't do that because in spite of your claims, you don't actually think that way. The evidence is in your own behavior.
phyllo
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 11902
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:41 am

Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby James S Saint » Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:04 pm

phyllo wrote:
b: to accept something as true, genuine, or real <ideals we believe in><believes in ghosts>


Please note the difference (in bold) between your usage and mine -
Yeah, I got that from your posts. Prior to attaining knowledge, you claim to be in a strange limbo state of doubt, "openness to options" and non-knowledge which you say is not belief.

I don't think that state exists nor is it possible for it to exist. I don't think that humans think that way. I think that action would be impossible in such a state.

True.
One cannot be agnostic about ALL things, else one can have no mind at all. Belief in the senses is required to merely get started.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:06 pm

James S Saint wrote:
phyllo wrote:
b: to accept something as true, genuine, or real <ideals we believe in><believes in ghosts>


Please note the difference (in bold) between your usage and mine -
Yeah, I got that from your posts. Prior to attaining knowledge, you claim to be in a strange limbo state of doubt, "openness to options" and non-knowledge which you say is not belief.

I don't think that state exists nor is it possible for it to exist. I don't think that humans think that way. I think that action would be impossible in such a state.

True.
One cannot be agnostic about ALL things, else one can have no mind at all. Belief in the senses is required to merely get started.


So that's interesting - is it a starting point? Why can't we be agnostic about our senses, to get started? Then agnostic precepts become justified empirically...
User avatar
WW_III_ANGRY
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3485
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:52 am

Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby Uccisore » Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:07 pm

phyllo wrote:
b: to accept something as true, genuine, or real <ideals we believe in><believes in ghosts>


Please note the difference (in bold) between your usage and mine -
Yeah, I got that from your posts. Prior to attaining knowledge, you claim to be in a strange limbo state of doubt, "openness to options" and non-knowledge which you say is not belief.

I don't think that state exists nor is it possible for it to exist. I don't think that humans think that way. I think that action would be impossible in such a state.



To me, questioning whether or not a state is possible isn't the important thing. The important thing is that ANGRY is demonstrably not in that state, based on the way he uses language, makes assumptions about what other people believe, and resists being correct on obvious errors. He's believing in the exact same way as everybody, he merely doesn't like the word, because he wants to reserve it for people he doesn't like.

That's what it comes down to. He's got the exact same basic epistemology as any other dabbler in philosophy. He's merely scrambled his words all around such that he talks about the same experiences everybody else has without using the word 'belief' to describe them. When absolutely forced, he'll stick 'interpretation' or 'understanding' in as a synonym.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8mPuckq ... ure=vmdshb

http://deepfreeze.it/ Curious about corrupt practices in video game journalism? Look no further.
User avatar
Uccisore
The Legitimatizer
 
Posts: 13279
Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2002 8:14 pm
Location: Deep in the forests of Maine

Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:08 pm

phyllo wrote:
So why is that strange to you?

So Why do you not think that state exists nor is it possible for it to exist?
I told you. One will not act in a state where one cannot evaluate one action as better than another.

For example, you respond to a post with a specific interpretation of the poster's meaning. If you had no reasonable interpretation, then you would not respond. If you had multiple interpretations then you would have multiple responses in the form of "If you mean this, then my response is this. If you mean that, then my response is that.".

But you don't do that because in spite of your claims, you don't actually think that way. The evidence is in your own behavior.


Did you not see my response to why this isn't a belief?
User avatar
WW_III_ANGRY
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3485
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:52 am

Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby James S Saint » Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:12 pm

WW_III_ANGRY wrote:So that's interesting - is it a starting point? Why can't we be agnostic about our senses, to get started? Then agnostic precepts become justified empirically...

Nothing can empirically justify anything if even all the senses are in doubt. Any belief or "knowledge" must stem from a priori.

Nothing comes from nothing and certainly not certainty.

Interesting how atheists keep getting into that "something from nothing" problem in their attempt to deny precepts.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby phyllo » Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:14 pm

I hope I showed some evidence of why I don't believe things.
You claim to believe things because you associate belief with irrational religious nuts and you don't want to think of yourself in those terms.

Everyone is telling you that "irrational belief without evidence" is a tiny fragment of the meaning of the word 'belief' but you won't listen. You have a phobia of the word. You're not the only one. It's common among atheists.

You are on a pointless quest to alter epistemology. You are wasting your time over nothing.
phyllo
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 11902
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:41 am

Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:14 pm

Uccisore wrote:
phyllo wrote:
b: to accept something as true, genuine, or real <ideals we believe in><believes in ghosts>


Please note the difference (in bold) between your usage and mine -
Yeah, I got that from your posts. Prior to attaining knowledge, you claim to be in a strange limbo state of doubt, "openness to options" and non-knowledge which you say is not belief.

I don't think that state exists nor is it possible for it to exist. I don't think that humans think that way. I think that action would be impossible in such a state.



To me, questioning whether or not a state is possible isn't the important thing. The important thing is that ANGRY is demonstrably not in that state, based on the way he uses language, makes assumptions about what other people believe, and resists being correct on obvious errors. He's believing in the exact same way as everybody, he merely doesn't like the word, because he wants to reserve it for people he doesn't like.

That's what it comes down to. He's got the exact same basic epistemology as any other dabbler in philosophy. He's merely scrambled his words all around such that he talks about the same experiences everybody else has without using the word 'belief' to describe them. When absolutely forced, he'll stick 'interpretation' or 'understanding' in as a synonym.


How do you know what I think? You don't really, your entire argument is based on belief, as opposed to mine. I know why I don't believe and provided reasons why whatever instance of belief you thought you caught me at wasn't. You assume you know how I think. Only I can know how I think, unless some crazy scientific advances occur that I'm not aware of currently.
User avatar
WW_III_ANGRY
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3485
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:52 am

Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:15 pm

phyllo wrote:
I hope I showed some evidence of why I don't believe things.
You claim to believe things because you associate belief with irrational religious nuts and you don't want to think of yourself in those terms.

Everyone is telling you that "irrational belief without evidence" is a tiny fragment of the meaning of the word 'belief' but you won't listen. You have a phobia of the word. You're not the only one. It's common among atheists.

You are on a pointless quest to alter epistemology. You are wasting your time over nothing.


I did not claim "I believe things because I associate belief with irrational religious nuts"

Sorry. If you want to be unreasonable, go ahead, but that doesn't help you at all for your argument.
User avatar
WW_III_ANGRY
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3485
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:52 am

Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby Uccisore » Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:18 pm

Justifying our senses with empiricism is like justifying mathematics with an equation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8mPuckq ... ure=vmdshb

http://deepfreeze.it/ Curious about corrupt practices in video game journalism? Look no further.
User avatar
Uccisore
The Legitimatizer
 
Posts: 13279
Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2002 8:14 pm
Location: Deep in the forests of Maine

Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby phyllo » Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:18 pm

I did not claim "I believe things because I associate belief with irrational religious nuts"
Yeah, I lost a 'NOT' while editing my post.

It should have been : "You claim NOT to believe things because you associate belief with irrational religious nuts and you don't want to think of yourself in those terms. "
phyllo
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 11902
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:41 am

Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby Uccisore » Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:21 pm

WW_III_ANGRY wrote:Sorry. If you want to be unreasonable, go ahead, but that doesn't help you at all for your argument.


He's come to the same conclusion about you that I and Moreno did. In fact I think phyllo came to it first. Seems reasonable enough to me- it's the most justified conclusion based on reading what you write.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8mPuckq ... ure=vmdshb

http://deepfreeze.it/ Curious about corrupt practices in video game journalism? Look no further.
User avatar
Uccisore
The Legitimatizer
 
Posts: 13279
Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2002 8:14 pm
Location: Deep in the forests of Maine

Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:24 pm

Uccisore wrote:Justifying our senses with empiricism is like justifying mathematics with an equation.


Empiricism utilizes logic and reason - through testing and experimentation. I'm not referring to scientific empiricism - in that a 3 year old utilizes empiricism. 3 year olds test and produce logical reasons of why things are the way they sense them.

That is all we can have knowledge from, our senses, essentially. If we had no senses, how could we have logic? Reason? Math? I don't know the answer to that question. Maybe we would understand logic and reason and math tabula rasa.

So you can claim knowledge is not justified and that we really don't know anything because its all based on senses, ultimately. Maybe you belong to the questionable "quote" of Socrates in that you think along the lines of "I only know I know nothing."? I don't know what you think on the matter. Empiricism allows us to recognize consistency, patterns, for justification, logically and reasonably.
User avatar
WW_III_ANGRY
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3485
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:52 am

Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby James S Saint » Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:28 pm

WW_III_ANGRY wrote:
Uccisore wrote:Justifying our senses with empiricism is like justifying mathematics with an equation.


Empiricism utilizes logic and reason - through testing and experimentation. I'm not referring to scientific empiricism - in that a 3 year old utilizes empiricism. They test and produce logical reasons of why things are the way they sense them.

How could you test or verify anything if your senses don't work? Even Helen Keller needed the sense of touch.

WW_III_ANGRY wrote:That is all we can have knowledge from, our senses, essentially. If we had no senses, how could we have logic? Reason? Math? I don't know the answer to that question. Maybe we would understand logic and reason and math tabula rasa.

That fallacy plays against your argument. Logic does not depend upon senses. But logic requires axioms. Until a high degree of mental understanding is reached, those axioms come from the probability that the senses are reasonably accurate (a belief in the senses).
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:31 pm

phyllo wrote:
I did not claim "I believe things because I associate belief with irrational religious nuts"
Yeah, I lost a 'NOT' while editing my post.

It should have been : "You claim NOT to believe things because you associate belief with irrational religious nuts and you don't want to think of yourself in those terms. "


Ok I didn't claim "not to believe things because I associate belief with irrational religious nuts.

I claimed not to believe things because I have developed a discipline of weeding out belief in my life, becoming agnostic about more things than would be considered normal and by obtaining knowledge.

That was my claim. You misinterpreted the claim because you and Uccisore seem to have a preconceived notion that you cannot shake from your mentality no matter what is stated. I suspect it may be due to your mental faculties operating from belief based frameworks.
User avatar
WW_III_ANGRY
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3485
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:52 am

Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby Uccisore » Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:33 pm

WW_III_ANGRY wrote:Empiricism utilizes logic and reason - through testing and experimentation. I'm not referring to scientific empiricism - in that a 3 year old utilizes empiricism. 3 year olds test and produce logical reasons of why things are the way they sense them.


Empiricism is knowledge dervied from sense experience. Justifying the general reliability of sense experience through knowledge derived from sense experience is circular.

If by 'empiricism' you meant 'rationalism', that isn't my problem. Maybe don't use words you don't know the meanings of.


That is all we can have knowledge from, our senses, essentially. If we had no senses, how could we have logic? Reason? Math? I don't know the answer to that question. Maybe we would understand logic and reason and math tabula rasa.


Who the fuck knows? If somebody tries to answer that, you'll just say "By logic I didn't mean philosophical logic, I meant musical logic. By Math I didn't mean mathematical math, I meant counting on my fingers. By reason I didn't mean rational reason, I meant dried grapes". You give the exact same response every time somebody corrects you on anything.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8mPuckq ... ure=vmdshb

http://deepfreeze.it/ Curious about corrupt practices in video game journalism? Look no further.
User avatar
Uccisore
The Legitimatizer
 
Posts: 13279
Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2002 8:14 pm
Location: Deep in the forests of Maine

Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:33 pm

James S Saint wrote:
WW_III_ANGRY wrote:
Uccisore wrote:Justifying our senses with empiricism is like justifying mathematics with an equation.


Empiricism utilizes logic and reason - through testing and experimentation. I'm not referring to scientific empiricism - in that a 3 year old utilizes empiricism. They test and produce logical reasons of why things are the way they sense them.

How could you test or verify anything if your senses don't work? Even Helen Keller needed the sense of touch.

WW_III_ANGRY wrote:That is all we can have knowledge from, our senses, essentially. If we had no senses, how could we have logic? Reason? Math? I don't know the answer to that question. Maybe we would understand logic and reason and math tabula rasa.

That fallacy plays against your argument. Logic does not depend upon senses. But logic requires axioms. Until a high degree of mental understanding is reached, those axioms come from the probability that the senses are reasonably accurate (a belief in the senses).



James, How would a human who is tabula rasa, with no senses, understand what logic is?

Hellen Keller had the sense of touch, so I don't know why you are bringing her up.
User avatar
WW_III_ANGRY
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3485
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:52 am

Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby Uccisore » Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:37 pm

WW_III_ANGRY wrote:James, How would a human who is tabula rasa, with no senses, understand what logic is?


Jesus Christ. If a person can't understand logic without their senses, then justifying the reliability of your senses in terms of logic is back to being a circular argument again. You're arguing with me that you justify the senses through logic, and arguing with James that logic is justified through the senses.

Again, it's like justifying math with a math equation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8mPuckq ... ure=vmdshb

http://deepfreeze.it/ Curious about corrupt practices in video game journalism? Look no further.
User avatar
Uccisore
The Legitimatizer
 
Posts: 13279
Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2002 8:14 pm
Location: Deep in the forests of Maine

Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:39 pm

Uccisore wrote:
WW_III_ANGRY wrote:Empiricism utilizes logic and reason - through testing and experimentation. I'm not referring to scientific empiricism - in that a 3 year old utilizes empiricism. 3 year olds test and produce logical reasons of why things are the way they sense them.


Empiricism is knowledge dervied from sense experience. Justifying the general reliability of sense experience through knowledge derived from sense experience is circular.

If by 'empiricism' you meant 'rationalism', that isn't my problem. Maybe don't use words you don't know the meanings of.


That is all we can have knowledge from, our senses, essentially. If we had no senses, how could we have logic? Reason? Math? I don't know the answer to that question. Maybe we would understand logic and reason and math tabula rasa.


Who the fuck knows? If somebody tries to answer that, you'll just say "By logic I didn't mean philosophical logic, I meant musical logic. By Math I didn't mean mathematical math, I meant counting on my fingers. By reason I didn't mean rational reason, I meant dried grapes". You give the exact same response every time somebody corrects you on anything.



"Empiricism, in philosophy, the view that all concepts originate in experience, that all concepts are about or applicable to things that can be experienced, or that all rationally acceptable beliefs or propositions are justifiable or knowable only through experience. This broad definition accords with the derivation of the term empiricism from the ancient Greek word empeiria, “experience.”

Which means logic and reason is developed through experience. So as stated previously, why cannot one be agnostic of sensory experience until logic and reason are conceived? Or would you say we have logic and reason from birth, and tabula rasa, without sensory experience?
User avatar
WW_III_ANGRY
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3485
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:52 am

Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby phyllo » Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:40 pm

Ok I didn't claim "not to believe things because I associate belief with irrational religious nuts.
You claim not to believe things and I am giving my reasons for why you are making the claim.
I claimed not to believe things because I have developed a discipline of weeding out belief in my life, becoming agnostic about more things than would be considered normal and by obtaining knowledge.
I think that is a rationalization which is used to satisfy your ego.
phyllo
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 11902
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:41 am

Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby James S Saint » Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:41 pm

WW_III_ANGRY wrote:I claimed not to believe things because I have developed a discipline of weeding out belief in my life, becoming agnostic about more things than would be considered normal and by obtaining knowledge.

You seem to be off to a poor start. The first time that I did that, I refused to say anything at all until I knew without doubt that whatever I said had to be 100% accurate (aka "knowledge"). For two weeks, I couldn't say anything at all. Yet here you are blabbing all kinds of beliefs while claiming that you have none.

If you want to go that route, you can actually do it. But not like you have been. Try not saying anything at all until you cannot possibly doubt the absolute certainty of what you are going to say.

WW_III_ANGRY wrote:James, How would a human who is tabula rasa, with no senses, understand what logic is?

A cat doesn't know what logic is, yet uses it every second of its life. So do plants for that matter. But if you remove all senses from any creature before its birth, it dies without artificial help.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:42 pm

Uccisore wrote:
WW_III_ANGRY wrote:James, How would a human who is tabula rasa, with no senses, understand what logic is?


Jesus Christ. If a person can't understand logic without their senses, then justifying the reliability of your senses in terms of logic is back to being a circular argument again. You're arguing with me that you justify the senses through logic, and arguing with James that logic is justified through the senses.

Again, it's like justifying math with a math equation.


You're trying to answer a question that isn't possible to know. There is nobody with tabula rasa that we can confirm has logic. You don't understand the hypothetical here
User avatar
WW_III_ANGRY
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3485
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:52 am

Re: Is knowledge also a belief?

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:45 pm

James S Saint wrote:
WW_III_ANGRY wrote:I claimed not to believe things because I have developed a discipline of weeding out belief in my life, becoming agnostic about more things than would be considered normal and by obtaining knowledge.

You seem to be off to a poor start. The first time that I did that, I refused to say anything at all until I knew without doubt that whatever I said had to be 100% accurate (aka "knowledge"). For two weeks, I couldn't say anything at all. Yet here you are blabbing all kinds of beliefs while claiming that you have none.

If you want to go that route, you can actually do it. But not like you have been. Try not saying anything at all until you cannot possibly doubt the absolute certainty of what you are going to say.

WW_III_ANGRY wrote:James, How would a human who is tabula rasa, with no senses, understand what logic is?

A cat doesn't know what logic is, yet uses it every second of its life. So do plants for that matter. But if you remove all senses from any creature before its birth, it dies without artificial help.


Why should I care how you acted, based on what you are telling me how you thought, considering your tone? What do I believe James? if you don't want to have a philosophical discussion and denigrate, go ahead. But we can end it now. Me and you have already been down this path as well. But if you're going to argue with assumptions, there's no reason to discuss.

What I am going to "mean" is not a matter of belief, its a matter of knowledge. Please see the thread on language. Perhaps you need to brush up on what it is to mean something, as opposed to "say" something. Take a gander....

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=190052#p2598403
User avatar
WW_III_ANGRY
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3485
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:52 am

PreviousNext

Return to Philosophy



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users