Reflections on Greed, Corruption, and Immorality

Dictionaries tell me that greed =df.= excessive or rapacious desire, especially for wealth or possessions. It’s an avid desire for gain or wealth.

They further inform that corruption =df.= dishonest proceedings; impairment of integrity; inducement to wrong by improper or unlawful means (such as bribery); moral perversion; debasement; dissolution; foulness.

We know empirically that greed can lead to corruption, and also that corruption can result in greed. Each can be the cause of the other.

Hence I am wondering if there is a high correlation between them – or just what is the relation, if any??

I also am interested in learning more about the concept: How does immorality arise?

I noticed a discussion of this in M.C. Katz, Ethical Explorations, on p. 24.
wadeharvey.myqol.com/wadeharvey/ … ONS%20.pdf
Rather than expecting anyone to click on the link, I shall quote the text here:

Do any of you have thoughts on these matters?

I would like to imbed the three concepts (in the topic title) into a larger framework. I need your help on this project.

Please respond.

Every life is a specific balance of ambitions, else it dies. When any ambition is sought out of balance with the others, it is a “corruption of the balance”, a “lust”, blinding the person from the better balance. Greed is merely one form of imbalanced ambition.

The serious issue is that the best balance is not a specifically rationed amount of each ambition, but rather a balance with the environment at each moment. The ambition to form a business, for example, could be a good ambition if the person is in the right situation during the right era of his society. If he is not situated right with his environment, then his ambition sacrifices the better balance that would have brought him greater MIJOT. Thus it is critical to be aware of your real situation. You might even call it a “sin” to be unaware of your situation when trying to accomplish anything within it.

There are 3 fundamental moralities that must be balanced with each other. Maintain optimum levels of:

  1. Awareness
  2. Understanding
  3. Influence

The optimum life balances those with the social and physical environment moment by moment to form the best “spirit” (activity) with which to proceed. Such an “Anentropic Shelter” maintains the life in an optimum state of joyful harmony. When that balance is corrupted, by whatever means, MIJOT is reduced as suffering and death is more invited. Life becomes a frustrated and threatening struggle rather than a hope filled adventure.

Thank you, James, for a constructive contribution :exclamation:

[b]
Let’s say that being in balance is an ideal condition for a human being.

Then violating that ideal - being unbalanced - would be a moral mistake.[/b]

Modern Virtue Theory recommends avoiding excesses and deficits; instead: find the Golden Mean in life. Be prudential. Do you have any reason to believe that greed leads to vice? By ‘vice’ I mean overdoing or under-doing.
Is there any practical way to measure this?

Greed may lead to accepting bribes, which in turn could make one corrupt. Corruption is a form of immorality. Someone who wants to be a person of good character would avoid this condition.

Is the one who offers bribes equally unethical?

Is offering a bribe like giving a waiter a tip for service, only doing it in advance of the service?

Well, you are quite welcome. :sunglasses:

True, but …

By definition, nothing is an excess or deficit unless it is detrimental for the person. There is no need for empirical evidence to support what is true by definition. I think the real question is how one discerns how much is too much or too little at any one moment. And that is one of homosapian’s greater weaknesses. A part of life is the constant effort to keep apprised of such measure concerning one’s ambitions/efforts/intentions.

People are not machines with preset, preprogrammed, precalculated ideal measures of resources (despite modern government efforts to dictate such). How much a person “should” eat for their MIJOT varies each day at least a tiny amount and sometimes a great deal. Such measures cannot be preset without extreme advanced knowledge of each person’s exact individual situation plus extreme knowledge of all aspects of the person (aka “being God” - the ambition of such governments).

If your individual balance of need is already decided for you, then you are not alive. Living is making such decisions for yourself. General guidelines can be provided in advance. Understanding the ideals can be preprogrammed. Probabilities for average situations can be provided for. But to be one among the living, one must carefully attempt to discern the balance, by whatever means he chooses, for himself and be free enough to do so.

General guidelines. I don’t believe that such thoughts can be considered absolute ethics. There are only very few abstract ethics that are absolute.

Again by definition, “greed” is too much. Thus greed is always bad. But bribery is only an offense to a social system and that offense might be a good or bad thing to the person, depending upon more of the situation, especially what type of society. Bribery does not equate to greed, merely flexibility perhaps where it is not authorized. I am sure that wise governances know that mechanisms require grease (that stuff that goes on between the hard rules, aka “under the table”).

The attempt to force all behaviors to be exactly and only by the global rules, is death for both a great many people as well as the government attempting it.

To be “unethical” is to be “anti-social”. Assuming that the bribe in this case was actually anti-social (not merely declared to be by the governance), allowing the bride to function would be unethical. Both parties must contribute their portion of the activity in order for it to function. Either could prevent it. But the one who initiates the action places a greater decision making burden upon the one who must carry it through. He is the “tempter”, so one might think him to be even more guilty. But true life isn’t so simple minded.

If no one ever gets offered a bribe, no one ever gets to instill and reinforce their desire to not take it. They inherently become weaker through atrophy or “lack of practice/conditioning”, being “over-mothered”. Thus being offered a bride on rare occasion actually helps to maintain the lack of it functioning (and this has been experimentally proven, btw, concerning many issues. But don’t ask me for the references).

The sad truth is that the best balance is a little sway. A “little bad” is good if you measure “bad” by preset rules. One must sway in all things enough to maintain the awareness sense of too much and too little and decision making faculties that make up what life is.

Perfection is the seeking of the balance, not being in a prescribed balance. The ideal is being in a state of always adjusting toward the ideal - adjusting toward adjustment toward adjustment … eternally alive. When one stops adjusting because some ideal of perfection has been met, they are dead. Nothing can die until it fails to try. And failing being in the process of trying, is dying - regardless of the cause.

Depends entirely upon the society’s expectations, rules, and needs (and those are very rarely the same).

If life was so simple as to be able to merely state exactly what was good and bad for ALL people, life would have died out very long ago.

Good discussion !! Thank you James. Your remarks on bribery in today’s world I found to be especially enlightening.

Being in balance, ethically speaking, is more than just being well-adjusted. It suggests that one knows himself [herself], accepts himself as he is, creates himself, and gives (of) himself [or herself.}

It further suggests what I have called “morality,” , i.e., integrity, authenticity, empathy, compassion, kindness, and good character.

It also means being prudent; neither over-valuing nor under-valuing various traits and features of human life and existence… but rather seeing values in their prper perspective, giving the Intrinsic values priority over both the Extrinsic and the Systemic values, and the Extrinsic values being ranked higher by the individual than the Systemic values. Such an individual knows “which way is up,” and will tend to lead a balanced life. [size=90]{There is an accurate, fully-validated, objective test to measure these priority-assignments. Its name is: the Hartman Value Profile. If you are interested Ic an provide further details.][/size]

Sometimes, treasuring Intrinsic-values will result in a display of Moral Courage - such as we see in the conduct of a corporate whistle-blower.

p.s. I recommend this documentary to everyone:
youtube.com/results?search_ … xt+trailer

Also, see the entire move here: stream.youtubermovie.com/play.php?movie=4897822

This is the best work Michael Moore has ever done and is important for Americans to view it.

Your comments …?

You’re getting better. :sunglasses:

Although Dr Dolittle wouldn’t use the word “prudent”. For those who understand the word properly, it means just what you intend, a good balance. But to a much larger crowd of those actually in need of hearing what you are saying (although not likely to listen to anyone), it is associated with the pejorative “prude”, meaning to be stuck-up, unwilling to bend or enjoy simple things, always putting on heirs.

There is a correlation between them, yes, but I think that greed is more fundamental than corruption, which means: it oftener happens that greed leads to corruption than that corruption leads to greed. If a person or a society is corrupt then it is always greedy too, but if a person or a society is greedy then it is not always corrupt too.

:wink:

People have greed because they have too much of the greed hormone.

Similar to the hormone that causes squirrels to bury their nuts.

Corrupt, in a scientific and empirical discussion, is not a real word and tells me nothing empirical. (Unless it has a definition associated with it.)

But in poetry it’s fine.

.
…Speaking of greed…

I came upon this marvelous quotation from Thom Hartmann:

If greed isn’t a mental disorder, is it what makes squirrels bury their nuts? Is it largely hormonal - as Ultimate Philosophy has claimed?

What say you?

Some further reflections…

George Gilder, in his role as an Economist, offered this analysis:

Wealth = Knowledge

Growth = Learning

Money = Time.

[Time is the one commodity that will always be scarce, when all else is abundant. Money buys you time, he claims. Perhaps he means the more money you have the earlier you can go into retirement, and thus have plenty of leisure time. Actually, it turns out that when responsible people, those of good character, go into retirement, they have less time than ever, because they are so busy helping people, or doing something to make the world a better place.]

…something to think about.

p.s. Here is a link to my latest 6-page booklet, for a lay audience, which - though teaching ethics - is remarkable for not mentioning the words ‘ethics’ or ‘morality’ even once.
it title is SUCCESSFUL LIVING: How to have a quality life. tinyurl.com/zkuphdq

Gilder had a primitive way of communicating it.

Money is not Time.
Money = Theoretical Work Output

With money, you can buy people to work as your slaves or servants and get their work output or goods from work output.

Yes, I agree.

As I researched further on Gilder’s background, I discovered that he is a Creationist, and has other confused ideas that make him a science-denier.

It could be a mistake to take to heart what he says.

Yet he has a point about knowledge (which I define as understanding, integrating, and coordinating the relationships among bits of information) as eventually resulting in new wealth. However today some knowledge is just used to ‘beat the system.’ This merely moves wealth around from one-or-more individuals to another.

It is only “greed” if it is too much for the need.

.
A wise person once said the following, and I am inclined to agree:

Being ‘good’, or living well, is all about balance. Balance between reason and emotion, and between your needs and those of others, and between pragmatism and ‘the perfect solution’.

What say you?

Balance is the compromise between your desires and needs, versus those of those surrounding you, the environment, the situation upon which you depend and in which you survive, aka. your “God”.

Thanks to you, Ultimate, I’ve been thinking about the concept “corruption” and how to define it.

At first I noticed that dictionaries just use synonyms, such as moral turpitude, depravity, baseness.

Then I felt I would just say with regard to it: “It’s like pornography: you know it when you see it. You will recognize it when you encounter it.” :smiling_imp:

Finally, my latest attempt to define it is this:

Corruption = being unethical and consciously knowing that you are.

Even if if you care that this applies to you, that this is the case - and you’d rather it wasn’t - you still have a corrupt character if this definition applies to you.

Is the concept useful to those who care about Ethical Theory?

Corruption means disruption, erosion, or entropy of the order, structure, or harmony. Corruption of a society is the failing of its structure toward lawlessness, conflict, and chaos.

Being ethical means to harmonize with the needs. If the society happens to be serving the needs, then it means to harmonize with the social order. If the society is not serving the needs, being ethical might mean disrupting the social order so as to free the people to better serve their needs.

Corruption and ethics are not a one-to-one correlation.

Neediness inevitability transforms into greediness.

a poor pirate…starved for gold. Becomes paranoid…he must secure double, triple the amount of gold, so that he has no possibility of every being poor again. Yes, excess must be piled and piled. Greed, is related to security, and the need for security. Both are almost psychologically the same. One camera is not enough, but ten. But what if they avert the camera? Then put in a turret. But what if the turret malfunctions? Bring in ten. But what if they disable it with an EMP? Then put in mines. What if they walk through the mines? Then double, triple the mines.

Corruption is when a system is infected and unable to revert to a non-infected state.

A predisposition of greed is genetically programmed.

George Gilder is wrong.

  1. Wealth is not knowledge. Knowledge can but does not necessarily and not always lead to wealth, and wealth can but does not necessarily and not always lead to knowledge. So Gilder’s equation “wealth = knowledge” is FALSE.

  2. Growth is not learning. Learning can but does not necessarily mean growth, and growth can but does not necessarily mean learning. So Gilder’s equation “growth = learning” is FALSE.

  3. Money is not time. Merely some economists and propagandists think that money would be time. Money is a means that can but does not necessarily lead to wealth and to power, and time can but does not necessarily run short (cp. date of redemption of debts because of credits, interests, compound interests). So Gilder’s equation “money = time” is FALSE.

By the way: A society with an economy that is based upon information (including knowledge and belief) is much more environment-sparing than a society with a money economy that is based upon energetic resources. Information (but not energy and resources) can be reproduced arbitrarily. So information is the better money basis. I would suggest a money system of two monetary units: “I” (“Information”) and “E” (“Energy”), so that, for example, 100 cents would consist of 98 I-cent and 2 E-cent, and both could not really be separated from each other.