Creativity: The Pregnant Mind

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Creativity: The Pregnant Mind

Postby WendyDarling » Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:47 am

Creativity is the brain processing information; the mind at work towards the conception of new thought forms, imaginings, ideas.

I believe that the most creative minds have the monopoly on intelligence, far-reaching capabilities over the above average folks, but what is required for the greater good of such creative genius? Onus.

So, all minds become pregnant with creativity at some point during a lifetime, however the genius minds are always pregnant with a multitude of dream children pending labor. Does the creative genius get a free pass from society due to their valued position in society at the onset of delivering these never-ending idea(l) children?

Intelligence is a premium commodity but what is the responsibility of those blessed with creative hyper-drives to protect all others without said capabilities? In other words, the brightest must shed their light into the future to ensure positive outcomes, built in measures of forethought, before they can in good conscience give birth to any of their idea(l) children. That is the onus, the challenge, I feel each genius must overcome if they are truly of genius quality.


"What matters is the ability to stave off the deepest, most unquenchable need to be applauded, to be rewarded monetarily, to birth these children held so dear, dreams. Mother Earth cannot sustain such frivolity of forethought, the lack of personal accountability to a shared reality, the lack of considering others' futures as well with this dark need to create no matter the cost. The unadulterated romance of creation is blinding and intoxicating."-MM, written in another thread.
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Re: Creativity: The Pregnant Mind

Postby Fixed Cross » Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:18 am

Right.

The sad thing for such genius is that those it works to benefit more often than not loathe the conditions of genius - the only real form of freedom, the power to create - since it does not provide the ease of habit.

Genius, especially when it makes an effort to be wholesome, is loathed by its beneficiaries precisely because of its superiority. It has to take this in stride; it has to feed mouths that wish only to vomit. It has to coerce the weakling into a path to health.

My thinking is at this point that where the responsibility of creative genius is to make it a world-building genius, the responsibility of the 'normal' human, the beneficiary, is not to express all the time its jealousy.

Such un-expressed humans, not-quite-entities, are basically simply afraid to experience themselves. What geniuses do is hand weaker humans courage. But in the 'mouse', i.e. before courage is attained, the smell of it is hateful.

Creative genius and courage arent very different from one another. Both deal with that which does not yet exist, but will because of them. Both 'birth themselves'; there is no precedent for them; in fact precedent is a curse to them.
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Re: Creativity: The Pregnant Mind

Postby WendyDarling » Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:34 am

FC,

Are we on the same page? My page reads that if a genius cannot labor to ensure a positive outcome for humanity over the long haul, then they have an unspoken obligation to withhold their innovations, hence remaining always pregnant, never a mother. That is how they aide in the survival of humanity. Is there any bigger, on-going sacrifice one could make? Call it my kind of honor, my invisible gifts, my with holding.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Creativity: The Pregnant Mind

Postby WendyDarling » Mon Mar 06, 2017 7:23 am

Dao De Jing #3
(Keeping the people at rest) Not to value and employ men of superior ability is the way to keep the people from rivalry among themselves; not to prize articles which are difficult to procure is the way to keep them from becoming thieves; not to show them what is likely to excite their desires is the way to keep their minds from disorder. Therefore the sage, in the exercise of his government, empties their minds, fills their bellies, weakens their wills, and strengthens their bones. He constantly (tries to) keep them without knowledge and without desire, and where there are those who have knowledge, to keep them from presuming to act (on it). When there is this abstinence from action, good order is universal.


Thanks pilgrim_tom for directing me to the Dao De Jing. It's nice to see my ideas about "not acting" so in tune with a religion.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Creativity: The Pregnant Mind

Postby Amorphos » Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:15 pm

WendyDarling wrote:Dao De Jing #3
(Keeping the people at rest) Not to value and employ men of superior ability is the way to keep the people from rivalry among themselves; not to prize articles which are difficult to procure is the way to keep them from becoming thieves; not to show them what is likely to excite their desires is the way to keep their minds from disorder. Therefore the sage, in the exercise of his government, empties their minds, fills their bellies, weakens their wills, and strengthens their bones. He constantly (tries to) keep them without knowledge and without desire, and where there are those who have knowledge, to keep them from presuming to act (on it). When there is this abstinence from action, good order is universal.


Thanks pilgrim_tom for directing me to the Dao De Jing. It's nice to see my ideas about "not acting" so in tune with a religion.


Hate to disagree with Taoism but…

Not to value and employ men of superior ability is the way to keep the people from rivalry among themselves;

This is saying that one shouldn’t employ such people [I assume the writer didn’t take women of superior ability into account], just to satisfy the lesser minds so they think we are all equal [sounds awful]. Isn’t it better that we do employ such people now?

not to show them what is likely to excite their desires is the way to keep their minds from disorder.

Its the way to keep the mind from reaching any summit, and a good way for emperors to keep people stupid.

Therefore the sage, in the exercise of his government, empties their minds, fills their bellies, weakens their wills, and strengthens their bones.


Glad I am a druid and not a sage then.

Didn’t know Taoism sucked so much, did I misunderstand something?
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Re: Creativity: The Pregnant Mind

Postby WendyDarling » Tue Mar 07, 2017 2:35 am

This is saying that one shouldn’t employ such people [I assume the writer didn’t take women of superior ability into account], just to satisfy the lesser minds so they think we are all equal [sounds awful]. Isn’t it better that we do employ such people now?


No, the moderately to highly intelligent/creative folks' blind ambitions are the reason the world is so screwed. They are so determined to excel that they lack any noble convictions, self-restraint, and wise counsel towards the future in terms of costs on the environment and its people globally. Should smart/creative retards be given the golden pass on responsibility to others? No. They've been riding the wave of selfish stupidity for too long and the Earth and its civilizations are being destroyed by their retardedness.

Most people are already stupid, the adults are dumbing down the kids now.

How does a druid promote societal cohesiveness in this day and age? Okay, what is it to be a druid exactly?
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Creativity: The Pregnant Mind

Postby Dan~ » Tue Mar 07, 2017 3:27 am

Intelligence and brain matter are not stationary things.
They are living and constantly being rebuilt.
The self and its ability to create is a type of vitality.
Life's virtues can be broken down into vitality as well.
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Re: Creativity: The Pregnant Mind

Postby WendyDarling » Tue Mar 07, 2017 4:02 am

Dan~ wrote:Intelligence and brain matter are not stationary things.
They are living and constantly being rebuilt.
The self and its ability to create is a type of vitality.
Life's virtues can be broken down into vitality as well.


Okay. What are your life's virtues?
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Creativity: The Pregnant Mind

Postby Dan~ » Tue Mar 07, 2017 5:21 am

WendyDarling wrote:
Dan~ wrote:Intelligence and brain matter are not stationary things.
They are living and constantly being rebuilt.
The self and its ability to create is a type of vitality.
Life's virtues can be broken down into vitality as well.


Okay. What are your life's virtues?


This is a level prior to language and thought.
It is an open flower.
It's like a medicine that makes more of itself.
Vitality even predates fertility.
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Re: Creativity: The Pregnant Mind

Postby surreptitious57 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 6:34 am


Non judgementalism / open mindedness

The avoidance of negative emotions

A desire to acquire new knowledge

Accepting ones own imperfections
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Re: Creativity: The Pregnant Mind

Postby WendyDarling » Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:00 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Non judgementalism / open mindedness

The avoidance of negative emotions

A desire to acquire new knowledge

Accepting ones own imperfections


If these are your better ideas towards damage limitation, why are they not in that thread and the how to's explained in detail?
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Creativity: The Pregnant Mind

Postby surreptitious57 » Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:05 pm


Because they are only for my self improvement and no one elses

How others wish to self improve is a matter for them and not me
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Re: Creativity: The Pregnant Mind

Postby Xenophon » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:57 am

WendyDarling wrote:Intelligence is a premium commodity but what is the responsibility of those blessed with creative hyper-drives to protect all others without said capabilities? In other words, the brightest must shed their light into the future to ensure positive outcomes, built in measures of forethought, before they can in good conscience give birth to any of their idea(l) children. That is the onus, the challenge, I feel each genius must overcome if they are truly of genius quality.


Could you explain what you mean when you say "the brightest must shed their light into the future to ensure positive outcomes, built in measures of forethought, before they can in good conscience give birth to any of their idea(l) children."?

Are not the products of creativity the gifts given to the world by the creative?

WendyDarling wrote:My page reads that if a genius cannot labor to ensure a positive outcome for humanity over the long haul, then they have an unspoken obligation to withhold their innovations, hence remaining always pregnant, never a mother.


Can you explain where the this ensuring ends? If a fisherman makes a catch to feed a starving family but the recipients choke on the bone, did the fisherman have the obligation never to catch the fish or provide it to those who would eat it, or the same with the example of any article of food which might be choked on, for example the creator for a new recipe for a bread which was subsequently choked on?

If wars were fought in the name of Christianity or the inquisition enacted because of it, are you saying that Christ should never have spoken for that reason?

Are you saying something else entirely?

I have to say that I read certain of the quotes from the Dao De Jing the way that Amorphorous has:

Amorphos wrote:Not to value and employ men of superior ability is the way to keep the people from rivalry among themselves;

This is saying that one shouldn’t employ such people [I assume the writer didn’t take women of superior ability into account], just to satisfy the lesser minds so they think we are all equal [sounds awful]. Isn’t it better that we do employ such people now?


WendyDarling wrote:No, the moderately to highly intelligent/creative folks' blind ambitions are the reason the world is so screwed. They are so determined to excel that they lack any noble convictions, self-restraint, and wise counsel towards the future in terms of costs on the environment and its people globally. Should smart/creative retards be given the golden pass on responsibility to others?


The quote given says that not employing superior individuals will keep people from rivalry, not that superior people are necessarily ambitious in such a way that they necessarily detriment others through the direct product of their actions. Is there not instances where it would be better to employ those who are superior, for example in the case of a doctor doing surgery? Would it not then be better to have risky surgery performed by a doctor whose success rate is perfect rather than one whose patients have died with greater frequency?

Also, why would rivalry necessarily be a bad thing? If rivalry is competition for the same objective or for superiority in the same field, couldn't rivalry be a good thing by providing an example of the best route to an objective and giving individuals the incentive to be better than they were before?

I also would like to know if you are saying that rivalry is bad and that by employing superior ability one is creating a negative impact. If you are saying so, would the superiority of your own perspective also cause rivalry among others on the forum and thus be a bad thing?
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Re: Creativity: The Pregnant Mind

Postby WendyDarling » Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:08 pm

Could you explain what you mean when you say "the brightest must shed their light into the future to ensure positive outcomes, built in measures of forethought, before they can in good conscience give birth to any of their idea(l) children."?

Higher standards to research where creative endeavors may lead, built-in obligations to protect the environment and in turn its peoples, needs to be invoked to ensure the survival of humanity.

Are not the products of creativity the gifts given to the world by the creative?

Being creative is a gift to oneself first and foremost, sharing it with others, mass producing it, requires forethought and conscience to make sure it doesn't become too dangerous, too destructive by the very nature of its existence.

Does the world need all creative gifts? Aren't some creative gifts, like nuclear waste, too generous in their harmful natures, in other words, more harmful than good? If my creative gift to all is an energy source, nuclear energy, that will always be dangerous to all life on Earth, am I not responsible for its release unto the Earth?

Can you explain where the this ensuring ends? If a fisherman makes a catch to feed a starving family but the recipients choke on the bone, did the fisherman have the obligation never to catch the fish or provide it to those who would eat it, or the same with the example of any article of food which might be choked on, for example the creator for a new recipe for a bread which was subsequently choked on?

I don't know where it ends, only that it needs to begin. Your example, the fish, is born of the natural world, not of man-made products, so I'm not understanding its relevance. Do you have another example that incorporates a human's product of ingenuity rather than a product of nature? Perhaps you do not believe that empirical discoveries are relevant.

the same with the example of any article of food which might be choked on, for example the creator for a new recipe for a bread which was subsequently choked on?

There is a difference between a natural occurrence and an unnatural occurrence, yes? Trying to blur such lines is dishonest.

The quote given says that not employing superior individuals will keep people from rivalry, not that superior people are necessarily ambitious in such a way that they necessarily detriment others through the direct product of their actions. Is there not instances where it would be better to employ those who are superior, for example in the case of a doctor doing surgery? Would it not then be better to have risky surgery performed by a doctor whose success rate is perfect rather than one whose patients have died with greater frequency?

These questions have more to do with a trans-formative talent rather than a product that transforms the very environment. Sometimes the lack of action benefits more people than any action taken ever could.

Also, why would rivalry necessarily be a bad thing? If rivalry is competition for the same objective or for superiority in the same field, couldn't rivalry be a good thing by providing an example of the best route to an objective and giving individuals the incentive to be better than they were before?

I also would like to know if you are saying that rivalry is bad and that by employing superior ability one is creating a negative impact. If you are saying so, would the superiority of your own perspective also cause rivalry among others on the forum and thus be a bad thing?


You seem in the mood to spar, yes? When my headache clears, I'll come back to these questions.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Creativity: The Pregnant Mind

Postby Xenophon » Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:47 pm

WendyDarling wrote:
Xenophon wrote:Are not the products of creativity the gifts given to the world by the creative?
Does the world need all creative gifts? Aren't some creative gifts, like nuclear waste, too generous in their harmful natures, in other words, more harmful than good? If my creative gift to all is an energy source, nuclear energy, that will always be dangerous to all life on Earth, am I not responsible for its release unto the Earth?


I do not think that the world needs all or any products of creativity. I asked the question because you had written "before they can in good conscience give birth to any of their idea(l) children.", and my thought was that a creative person would gain good conscience through the gifts that they give the world. This discussion revolves around predicting the future result of one's action, wouldn't you say? Do you not agree that exploring the subject through questions would be a proper route to discovering a methodology for prediction as well as becoming clear about which effects are acceptable and which are not?

WendyDarling wrote: Do you have another example that incorporates a human's product of ingenuity rather than a product of nature?


I did give the example of Christianity: If wars were fought in the name of Christianity or the inquisition enacted because of it, are you saying that Christ should never have spoken for that reason?

Do you have a problem with that example as well?

Another example would be cars, which cause accidents, have environmental waste, and cause the search for oil. Do you think that these should not have been produced?

WendyDarling wrote:
Xenophon wrote:Can you explain where the this ensuring ends?
I don't know where it ends, only that it needs to begin.


There was a point in asking you that question as well as wishing to explore examples. The examples is an attempt to explore the contours of what you mean by ensuring by looking at past existing creations so that precepts can be gained and applied to the future.

WendyDarling wrote:There is a difference between a natural occurrence and an unnatural occurrence, yes? Trying to blur such lines is dishonest.


I am not sure why you would assume that I am trying to be dishonest by engaging in discussion with you and seeking to understand what you are saying.

In the case of the bread recipe, you are saying it is an unnatural occurence because choking on the bread would be an accident and not an intention of the baker? Is that right or is there something more to it? In particular, is it the intention which counts or something else?

WendyDarling wrote:
Xenophon wrote:The quote given says that not employing superior individuals will keep people from rivalry, not that superior people are necessarily ambitious in such a way that they necessarily detriment others through the direct product of their actions. Is there not instances where it would be better to employ those who are superior, for example in the case of a doctor doing surgery? Would it not then be better to have risky surgery performed by a doctor whose success rate is perfect rather than one whose patients have died with greater frequency?

These questions have more to do with a trans-formative talent rather than a product that transforms the very environment. Sometimes the lack of action benefits more people than any action taken ever could.


How about the instances of superior engineers designing transport which would be used by the population at large, would it not be better to use superior engineers who would ensure the safety of those who use their product?

Another case would be in law making, wouldn't it be better to have someone superior in considering scenarios deeply considering consequences than someone who jumps to rash conclusions making laws?

WendyDarling wrote:You seem in the mood to spar, yes? When my headache clears, I'll come back to these questions.


Do you consider all discussions and questions to be sparring or the nature of mine in particular? I am still interested in hearing your answers if you wish to give them.
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Re: Creativity: The Pregnant Mind

Postby WendyDarling » Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:51 pm

I do not think that the world needs all or any products of creativity.

Then we're agreed, but the glut of creativity continues, forced upon us to our own detriment. Only the most intelligent creators will look out, away from the creations to see where they will go, what they may become, and this world is sorely lacking thoughtful creators.

I asked the question because you had written "before they can in good conscience give birth to any of their idea(l) children.", and my thought was that a creative person would gain good conscience through the gifts that they give the world.

Why would a creation, in its very nature, represent only the positive as a gift? This is shortsightedness, blind ambition if you will. Gifts can, as we see in reality, have far reaching consequences once they leave the nest of the creator. When a creator crosses the line from private to public, then they have a responsibility to that public.

This discussion revolves around predicting the future result of one's action, wouldn't you say?

Yes. This is done by people all the time, but for some reason, not done with regards to creations so much. It is art so whatever happens, happens, seems to be the mentality. I say that this mentality is wreckless in this day and age and the masses suffer these breaches of accountability on a grand scale, all the time. Methods for sustaining health and welfare should be built into all enterprises of large reach. Public safety always seems to become compromised once a design goes large scale.

Do you not agree that exploring the subject through questions would be a proper route to discovering a methodology for prediction as well as becoming clear about which effects are acceptable and which are not?

Yes, but that is not my area of strength.

I did give the example of Christianity: If wars were fought in the name of Christianity or the inquisition enacted because of it, are you saying that Christ should never have spoken for that reason?

Ideas, themselves are powerful, yes, they can inspire/incite but you are trying to push my beef with creation into more of the realm of thought crimes, ideas that cause future harms which is another whole ball of wax, which I don't think I am intelligent enough to pick apart in all honesty. Thought crimes would be an indirect offense whereas a product would be a direct egregiousness.

Another example would be cars, which cause accidents, have environmental waste, and cause the search for oil. Do you think that these should not have been produced?

In a word, yes. If access to mass transit for everyone within reason were available, the world and peoples would flourish without so much struggle.

There was a point in asking you that question as well as wishing to explore examples. The examples is an attempt to explore the contours of what you mean by ensuring by looking at past existing creations so that precepts can be gained and applied to the future.

Any precepts yet?

I am not sure why you would assume that I am trying to be dishonest by engaging in discussion with you and seeking to understand what you are saying.

You did not answer my question. Is there a difference between a natural occurrence and an unnatural occurrence?

In the case of the bread recipe, you are saying it is an unnatural occurence because choking on the bread would be an accident and not an intention of the baker? Is that right or is there something more to it? In particular, is it the intention which counts or something else?

Everything involved in bringing a product to the public counts so intention, resources, functionality, disposal presently...and tomorrow...and the next day...and a year later...ten years later...comprehensively...all of it matters.

Do you consider all discussions and questions to be sparring or the nature of mine in particular? I am still interested in hearing your answers if you wish to give them.

The number of your questions overwhelms me, I'm not used to lengthy discussions and thinking hurts my brain, so yeah, it feels like being pushed into a gladiator's arena. :evilfun: Oh, and laying out my thoughts clearly is another thing I'm working on as we communicate. :D How much sense am I making?
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Creativity: The Pregnant Mind

Postby Xenophon » Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:31 pm

WendyDarling wrote:The number of your questions overwhelms me, I'm not used to lengthy discussions and thinking hurts my brain, so yeah, it feels like being pushed into a gladiator's arena.


I can understand that. I recently spoke with iambiguous and ended up writing responses around 10 pages in a word processor. I felt like it was too much and my head was foggy for hours afterwards. I just did not know how else to thoroughly communicate my answers. Also, by the end of writing my responses it had become difficult for me to concentrate. If you wish to discuss with me then feel free to take as much time as you need and if I ask something that you feel isn't relevant you can skip it to save time. I may ask you again, though, and try to explain why I feel it is relevant.

WendyDarling wrote:
Xenophon wrote:I asked the question because you had written "before they can in good conscience give birth to any of their idea(l) children.", and my thought was that a creative person would gain good conscience through the gifts that they give the world.
Why would a creation, in its very nature, represent only the positive as a gift?


I do not think that creation, in it's very nature, would necessarily constitute a gift. I meant that a well considered creation would be the gift which brings the creator good conscience. If you recall I asked what the preceding part of that statement meant, which you have now explained, because I did not understand the way it was worded.

WendyDarling wrote:This is shortsightedness, blind ambition if you will. Gifts can, as we see in reality, have far reaching consequences once they leave the nest of the creator. When a creator crosses the line from private to public, then they have a responsibility to that public.


I don't see what I am saying as short sightedness or blind ambition. It is because creations can have far reaching consequences that they have the potential to be gifts. Honestly, I am not thinking of this so much as a responsibility as a result of caring for the world, to wish to see certain results manifest in it.

WendyDarling wrote:
Xenophon wrote:This discussion revolves around predicting the future result of one's action, wouldn't you say?
Yes. This is done by people all the time, but for some reason, not done with regards to creations so much. It is art so whatever happens, happens, seems to be the mentality. I say that this mentality is wreckless in this day and age and the masses suffer these breaches of accountability on a grand scale, all the time. Methods for sustaining health and welfare should be built into all enterprises of large reach. Public safety always seems to become compromised once a design goes large scale.


I think this is important with regards to creation, that is why I joined the discussion.

I might add here that the reason I think that great art, like great philosophy, does not only show people what they are and what they have been but the best of what they can be.

WendyDarling wrote:
Xenophon wrote:Do you not agree that exploring the subject through questions would be a proper route to discovering a methodology for prediction as well as becoming clear about which effects are acceptable and which are not?
Yes, but that is not my area of strength.


I cannot say with total confidence that it is my strength either, but I think it is a worthy pursuit.

WendyDarling wrote:
Xenophon wrote:I did give the example of Christianity: If wars were fought in the name of Christianity or the inquisition enacted because of it, are you saying that Christ should never have spoken for that reason?
Ideas, themselves are powerful, yes, they can inspire/incite but you are trying to push my beef with creation into more of the realm of thought crimes, ideas that cause future harms which is another whole ball of wax, which I don't think I am intelligent enough to pick apart in all honesty. Thought crimes would be an indirect offense whereas a product would be a direct egregiousness.


I did not have any conscious intention of hunting down thought criminals. I am interested in the effects of creative ideas because it is the realm in which I work personally. Also, I think that even physical creations start out as ideas and intentions. We are discussing ensuring positive effects and consequences which would have to take place in the realm of ideas (before the creation already exists), as well as considering which ideas have positive and negative consequences and why, or do you think that I am going too far?

WendyDarling wrote:
Xenophon wrote:Another example would be cars, which cause accidents, have environmental waste, and cause the search for oil. Do you think that these should not have been produced?
In a word, yes. If access to mass transit for everyone within reason were available, the world and peoples would flourish without so much struggle.


I see what you're saying. It is late at night here and I am a morning person so I am not at the height of my critical faculties. I am inclined to wonder nonetheless if things aren't as simple as we would like to make it. Of course cars are now a historical phenomena. We see their effects in our era of mass traffic congestion, whereas at one point the automobile would have been the seed of an idea which expanded to inspire public transportation. Also, there might be times when transportation for individuals might be needed to access difficult to reach locations. The reason those might be important considerations is because we are talking about creative individuals considering the future effects of their products. As far as I can see, the future is to a large extent hidden from us and there may be both negative and positive unforseen consequences of our products and actions. If it is to be considered a responsibility to calculate the future, it seems to me wise that we at least try to grasp how one can make such predictions with success.

WendyDarling wrote:Any precepts yet?


We are definitely talking about "consequences" — positive outcomes and harm. I am not sure how clearly we understand what is meant by consequences and positive outcomes and harm.

Perhaps also ensuring, what we mean when we say that a creative person should consider and try to ensure positive outcomes.

WendyDarling wrote:You did not answer my question. Is there a difference between a natural occurrence and an unnatural occurrence?


Sorry for that. I honestly wasn't sure exactly what you meant by it. That is why I asked you, in relation to creating a recipe for bread, if it was the intention which made the difference or something more.

I think it would help if you explained what natural and unnatural occurences are.

WendyDarling wrote:
Xenophon wrote:In the case of the bread recipe, you are saying it is an unnatural occurence because choking on the bread would be an accident and not an intention of the baker? Is that right or is there something more to it? In particular, is it the intention which counts or something else?
Everything involved in bringing a product to the public counts so intention, resources, functionality, disposal presently...and tomorrow...and the next day...and a year later...ten years later...comprehensively...all of it matters.


Are you saying that resources play a role in the event of an unnatural occurence, or are just you saying that resources matter when considering the consequences of one's creation? If it is the former, could you please explain it to me?

WendyDarling wrote: Oh, and laying out my thoughts clearly is another thing I'm working on as we communicate. :D How much sense am I making?


I am afraid I can't answer that. The way I worded "I do not think that the world needs all or any products of creativity." was pretty bad. It reads as if I was saying the world does not need any creations, which I am not yet ready to assert. I am not sure my opinion would be entirely relevant anyway.
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Re: Creativity: The Pregnant Mind

Postby WendyDarling » Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:33 am

WendyDarling wrote:
Oh, and laying out my thoughts clearly is another thing I'm working on as we communicate. :D How much sense am I making?
I am afraid I can't answer that. The way I worded "I do not think that the world needs all or any products of creativity." was pretty bad. It reads as if I was saying the world does not need any creations, which I am not yet ready to assert. I am not sure my opinion would be entirely relevant anyway.

Why can't you answer that? Of course, your opinion is relevant, it was requested. Everyone online gets caught with their pants down so to speak. I understood what you meant at any rate even if it was worded poorly.

I can understand that.

Good. *relieved smile*

I meant that a well considered creation would be the gift which brings the creator good conscience.

The problem is that they are not being well considered...my very beef.

I don't see what I am saying as short sightedness or blind ambition.

I was generalizing about creations not being well considered, nothing directed at you.

Honestly, I am not thinking of this so much as a responsibility as a result of caring for the world, to wish to see certain results manifest in it.

Why would one not care for the world in which they and others live?

I might add here that the reason I think that great art, like great philosophy, does not only show people what they are and what they have been but the best of what they can be.

To me, this is a case akin to male romanticism (a different issue that manifests as great beauty and equally great horror).

I think it is a worthy pursuit.

Again, we're agreed. Continued existence is a worthy pursuit and I place life over objects in terms of importance.

I am interested in the effects of creative ideas because it is the realm in which I work personally.

Care to share how?

We are discussing ensuring positive effects and consequences which would have to take place in the realm of ideas (before the creation already exists), as well as considering which ideas have positive and negative consequences and why, or do you think that I am going too far?

Bingo! :D Too far? This has yet to be undertaken.

The reason those might be important considerations is because we are talking about creative individuals considering the future effects of their products. As far as I can see, the future is to a large extent hidden from us and there may be both negative and positive unforseen consequences of our products and actions. If it is to be considered a responsibility to calculate the future, it seems to me wise that we at least try to grasp how one can make such predictions with success.

Yes, how? :-k

We are definitely talking about "consequences" — positive outcomes and harm. I am not sure how clearly we understand what is meant by consequences and positive outcomes and harm.

Perhaps also ensuring, what we mean when we say that a creative person should consider and try to ensure positive outcomes.

We don't need to talk about positive outcomes if the intention was towards a positive, working product, that would already be afforded in the design.

I think it would help if you explained what natural and unnatural occurences are.

Natural would be without human intervention/manipulation.

Are you saying that resources play a role in the event of an unnatural occurence, or are just you saying that resources matter when considering the consequences of one's creation? If it is the former, could you please explain it to me?

Hmmm, both? :D Money is a resource and it causes all sorts of unnatural occurrences, particularly in scientific research and politics. Ya know, money is the source of all evil? :evilfun:
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Re: Creativity: The Pregnant Mind

Postby Xenophon » Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:27 pm

WendyDarling wrote:Oh, and laying out my thoughts clearly is another thing I'm working on as we communicate. :D How much sense am I making?

WendyDarling wrote:Why can't you answer that? Of course, your opinion is relevant, it was requested. Everyone online gets caught with their pants down so to speak. I understood what you meant at any rate even if it was worded poorly.


In our brief conversation, there were some instances when I did not understand what you meant. I asked you and you gave clarifications that I believe I could understand. Thus far I see no reason to think you cannot carry out a reasonable discussion. As for your positions, there are certain general principles we seem to agree on. Exactly how we understand them is less clear to me thus far, by no fault of yours.

WendyDarling wrote:
Xenophon wrote:I meant that a well considered creation would be the gift which brings the creator good conscience.
The problem is that they are not being well considered...my very beef.


Perhaps we can take some steps towards figuring out how to consider them.

WendyDarling wrote:
Xenophon wrote:Honestly, I am not thinking of this so much as a responsibility as a result of caring for the world, to wish to see certain results manifest in it.

Why would one not care for the world in which they and others live?


I'm sure that some might have reasons, such as despair. I also think that what various individuals consider to be proper caring may differ. What it could consist of is what I hope we will be able to figure out. Which leads to:

Xenophon wrote:I might add here that the reason I think that great art, like great philosophy, does not only show people what they are and what they have been but the best of what they can be.

WendyDarling wrote:To me, this is a case akin to male romanticism (a different issue that manifests as great beauty and equally great horror).


Do you wish to discuss it? I think it is relevant to the discussion because I see it as proper caring. You may decide if you think it would take us too off topic or not.

WendyDarling wrote: Continued existence is a worthy pursuit and I place life over objects in terms of importance.


Would you also say that considering how one exists well is a worthy pursuit? In relation to the main subject of this thread, couldn't a creative gift be considered one that not only maintains existence but improves the conditions of it?

WendyDarling wrote:
Xenophon wrote:I am interested in the effects of creative ideas because it is the realm in which I work personally.
Care to share how?


You mean tell in which way I work with creative ideas? If so then it is because I have aspirations to be a writer. I think a lot of the problems we are discussing about the consequences of creative products can be applied to the arts as well as things like engineering. Of course the thing you call male romanticism, if you consider it to be a problem, would be an idea which might show up in artistic expression. I do think the idea of helping (I can't currently think of a better word) others be the best they can be is relevant to things like engineering because the effects of creative products might be a decline in physical health, for example (take the example of a confectioner).

WendyDarling wrote:
Xenophon wrote:We are discussing ensuring positive effects and consequences which would have to take place in the realm of ideas (before the creation already exists), as well as considering which ideas have positive and negative consequences and why, or do you think that I am going too far?
Bingo! :D Too far? This has yet to be undertaken.


Recall this train of thought began in connection to the question I asked about Christ. Do you then think it might be relevant to consider the effects of creative ideas as well as physical products?

WendyDarling wrote:
Xenophon wrote:The reason those might be important considerations is because we are talking about creative individuals considering the future effects of their products. As far as I can see, the future is to a large extent hidden from us and there may be both negative and positive unforseen consequences of our products and actions. If it is to be considered a responsibility to calculate the future, it seems to me wise that we at least try to grasp how one can make such predictions with success.
Yes, how? :-k


Well, thus far my suggestion has been to acquire well considered precepts which can then be applied to different contexts and circumstances by individuals seeking to create.

WendyDarling wrote:
Xenophon wrote:We are definitely talking about "consequences" — positive outcomes and harm. I am not sure how clearly we understand what is meant by consequences and positive outcomes and harm.

Perhaps also ensuring, what we mean when we say that a creative person should consider and try to ensure positive outcomes.
We don't need to talk about positive outcomes if the intention was towards a positive, working product, that would already be afforded in the design.


This is my thought: It appears to me that we do need to make clear what is meant by positive outcomes because, when you say that if the intention is positive then the outcome (?) would be afford by the design, this assumes that we are clear about what a positive intention is. An example of where we might have our meanings crossed is when I said that great art seeks to show people the best that they can be and it seemed to me you did not agree. If I then went about creating with the intention of showing people the best that they can be and assuming that my intentions were pure, but it turned out that my intentions were based on fallacious thinking, then the outcome is likely to be equally problematic despite what I thought were good intentions and an attempt to care for the world and the people in it. Do you see what I mean?

WendyDarling wrote:Any precepts yet?


I also realized there might be some more viable precepts embedded in your comments:

WendyDarling wrote:Everything involved in bringing a product to the public counts so intention, resources, functionality, disposal presently...and tomorrow...and the next day...and a year later...ten years later...comprehensively...


Also it seems like you feel you might have a lead with the consideration of what you are calling natural and unnatural consequences, in which case there may be more precepts in them. Precepts with which one may consider the effects a creative product might have in the process of designing it, that is.

WendyDarling wrote: Is there a difference between a natural occurrence and an unnatural occurrence?

WendyDarling wrote:Natural would be without human intervention/manipulation.


I can certainly say that I see a difference between consequences which arise from human intervention and those which do not. You originally asked me this in regards to my question about whether choking on bread would be grounds for the creator of a recipe to abstain. So you saying that the reason that a bread maker (or other creators in similar circumstances) would not need to abstain for fear of such consequences is because the consequences did not arise due to human intervention in the process of making use of the product? Was there something more you wished to point out that I am now missing?

In this there might be a precept, which could then be applied by the consideration of the creator. The only difficultly I might see is that, are we to take unnatural occurrences to be necessarily bad? What if a human intervenes in a situation to help another individual. Could such an unnatural occurence then be considered a good thing? If so, then perhaps the idea of unnatural and natural occurences could not be used with such straightforward results and the issue would really be whether the occurences, natural or not, would result in positive outcomes?

WendyDarling wrote: Money is a resource and it causes all sorts of unnatural occurrences, particularly in scientific research and politics. Ya know, money is the source of all evil?


In a similar sense to money, we could also look at it as the power of access to needed goods. Such access, as in the case of money, could be put to good ends as well as evil, right? If someone funds in or allocates goods to project which would have a positive outcome.

I have seemed to have lost touch with some of the precepts here except for this idea of what is positive.
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Re: Creativity: The Pregnant Mind

Postby encode_decode » Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:36 pm

    My initial thoughts . . .

    Responsibility is key and to me that spells out - do you understand your creation? Did you consider its impact before you began, while you were creating and then think how to mitigate any negative circumstance afterward?

    Another thing that is being responsible in my eyes is asking others what they think and having the ability to beat down your own selfish pride when others are not liking your ideas. I might be sounding a little harsh here but I was inspired by seven words in the original post:

    - if they are truly of genius quality -

    In one way I feel that genius should be redefined - but I will not go there.

    If they are truly of genius quality - the creative minds that is - then surely to be a genius, responsibility should be easy for them to deal with.

    Either way it seems along with their creations they are creating responsibility for the rest of us and not themselves . . .
    - Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion. (2017) -

    But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning, which is to say there is always meaning.(gib - 2017)
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    Re: Creativity: The Pregnant Mind

    Postby WendyDarling » Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:49 am

    Either way it seems along with their creations they are creating responsibility for the rest of us and not themselves . . .

    Our responsibility is perhaps another topic. We have a responsibility to deny their selfish desires and their frivolity towards our shared reality. But where are the checks and balances in the creative arenas? Yes, people want paper checks (big, fat bank checks) but not to actually check on the nature and implications of other people's endeavors.
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    I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

    Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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    Re: Creativity: The Pregnant Mind

    Postby 1mpious » Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:05 am

    WendyDarling wrote:Intelligence is a premium commodity but what is the responsibility of those blessed with creative hyper-drives to protect all others without said capabilities? In other words, the brightest must shed their light into the future to ensure positive outcomes, built in measures of forethought, before they can in good conscience give birth to any of their idea(l) children. That is the onus, the challenge, I feel each genius must overcome if they are truly of genius quality.


    "What matters is the ability to stave off the deepest, most unquenchable need to be applauded, to be rewarded monetarily, to birth these children held so dear, dreams. Mother Earth cannot sustain such frivolity of forethought, the lack of personal accountability to a shared reality, the lack of considering others' futures as well with this dark need to create no matter the cost. The unadulterated romance of creation is blinding and intoxicating."-MM, written in another thread.

    To be honest, I dont like your suggestion that creations of real genius are all of the present.
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    Re: Creativity: The Pregnant Mind

    Postby WendyDarling » Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:20 am

    1mpious wrote:
    WendyDarling wrote:Intelligence is a premium commodity but what is the responsibility of those blessed with creative hyper-drives to protect all others without said capabilities? In other words, the brightest must shed their light into the future to ensure positive outcomes, built in measures of forethought, before they can in good conscience give birth to any of their idea(l) children. That is the onus, the challenge, I feel each genius must overcome if they are truly of genius quality.


    "What matters is the ability to stave off the deepest, most unquenchable need to be applauded, to be rewarded monetarily, to birth these children held so dear, dreams. Mother Earth cannot sustain such frivolity of forethought, the lack of personal accountability to a shared reality, the lack of considering others' futures as well with this dark need to create no matter the cost. The unadulterated romance of creation is blinding and intoxicating."-MM, written in another thread.

    To be honest, I dont like your suggestion that creations of real genius are all of the present.

    I never suggested what you don't like, so there! :evilfun:
    I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

    I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

    Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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    Re: Creativity: The Pregnant Mind

    Postby encode_decode » Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:36 am

      WendyDarling

      WendyDarling wrote:
      Either way it seems along with their creations they are creating responsibility for the rest of us and not themselves . . .

      Our responsibility is perhaps another topic. We have a responsibility to deny their selfish desires and their frivolity towards our shared reality. But where are the checks and balances in the creative arenas? Yes, people want paper checks (big, fat bank checks) but not to actually check on the nature and implications of other people's endeavors.

      OK . . . I started another thread on responsibility - my style, lol. Yes we do have a responsibility to deny their selfish desires. We do share this reality. I do not believe there are genuine checks and balances in the creative arenas. Fat bank checks - has turned money into an evil concept instead of the convenience it could have been.

      I think people want too much freedom - I think people place to much emphasis on being individual - I think people are disgusted by each other . . .

      . . . and yet . . . Hmm . . .

      People have this most unquenchable need to be applauded, as you say. Applauded by other people - it is a temporary rush - like a drug.

      How do we keep the loonies in check?
      - Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion. (2017) -

      But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning, which is to say there is always meaning.(gib - 2017)
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      Re: Creativity: The Pregnant Mind

      Postby WendyDarling » Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:47 am

      At this point, I don't know. :-k Does this whole conundrum return to the essence of a soul?
      I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

      I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

      Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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