## Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

This is the main board for discussing philosophy - formal, informal and in between.

Moderator: Only_Humean

Forum rules
Forum Philosophy

### Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

surreptitious57
wrote:
Those with metaphysical or supernatural solutions will therefore always find a reason to fill those gaps. But I think only science can fill them. Where it cannot then they should be left empty

For example, there is no proven explanation for a living cell to form from nonliving molecules, it is impossible and the Big Bang concept is an evolutionary idea, that has never been proven and should be left empty. Science is supposed to be knowledge, that is demonstrated, observed and repeated. Evolution cannot be proven, or even tested,,,,,,,,, only believed. As in religion, christians believe it to be true and acknowledge the fact that they believe it. In science, however, it is not supposed to be something one 'believes", science is essentially knowledge and evolution is something not proven or tested, yet there are scientists who accept this unproven concept and believe it, so this essentially creates a religious element out of evolution. Amazing.
The man that walks his own road, walks alone

Old Norse Proverb

A Shieldmaiden
Philosopher

Posts: 1958
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:13 am

### Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

surreptitious57 wrote:
Those with metaphysical or supernatural solutions will therefore always find a reason to fill those gaps. But I think only science can fill them. Where it cannot then they should be left empty

new science ... new to humans that is ... usually follows imagination ... or by accident ... without imagination how much new science would we have?

one could argue that imagination is the "mother" of science.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

Thomas Kempis 1380-1471

pilgrim-seeker_tom
Philosopher

Posts: 1858
Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2006 11:16 am

### Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

For example ... take Einstein's theory of relativity ... he imagined it ... others proved it.

https://maas.museum/inside-the-collecti ... alia-1922/

We all have a faculty for imagination ... though some argue that the world's education systems ... at least some ... those school systems reserved for the privileged class may be an exception ... are designed to suppress imagination/creativity
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

Thomas Kempis 1380-1471

pilgrim-seeker_tom
Philosopher

Posts: 1858
Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2006 11:16 am

### Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

A Shieldmaiden wrote:
the Big Bang concept is an evolutionary idea

Evolution cannot be proven or even tested

While nothing before the Cosmic Microwave Background can be observed as it is too opaque to light it does not mean there is no evidence for the Big Bang. For
it is not an event that only happened in the past but one that is happening now. The Big Bang will only become a past event when the expansion of space stops

It is true that evolution cannot be proven. But that is because proof is a formal procedure applicable to axiomatically complete systems of deductive logic. Such
as mathematics and syllogisms. It does not apply to science as that is primarily an inductive discipline. Science only references disproof not proof. But this aside evolution has probably the largest body of evidence to support any scientific theory. As not only does it occur but it can do so within a human lifetime. Between
1988 - 2014 experiments conducted at Michigan University by Richard Lenski from only an initial dozen populations of E coli produced 60 000 generations. Which resulted in variation within speciation and the evolutionary development of new traits not present in the original samples. And this is merely one example of the absolutely overwhelming evidence for evolution which has been observed at both macro and micro levels. Indeed it has so much evidence for it it needs no more
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
surreptitious57
Philosopher

Posts: 1931
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:05 am

### Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

pilgrim seeker tom wrote:
without imagination how much new science would we have

Einstein famously said that imagination was more important than knowledge and by that he meant it should be used to discover new [ scientific ]
knowledge. Pre existing knowledge by virtue of already being known requires zero imagination. So in that scenario one could say that knowledge
and imagination were two sides of the same coin : one pertaining to what was already known and the other pertaining to what was still unknown
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
surreptitious57
Philosopher

Posts: 1931
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:05 am

### Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Mr Reasonable wrote:You're telling me that answers.com says that because the particles of matter are so small that you can't observe them, that they're not matter, because you have to observe them with your nose?

Dude.

What are you smoking these days?
As I said, I think of it as being both, matter and non-matter, but that's just me. It is both a sensation (smell) but at the same time that sensation IS derived from chemicals (matter).

Is this some newly-found phase that you're going through? Calling people who you know to be women dudes?

Concerning matter.jpg (55.94 KiB) Viewed 852 times
Last edited by Arcturus Descending on Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Joseph Joubert ~~

It is better to debate a question without settling it than to settle a question without debating it.

The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.

“We love repose of mind so well, that we are arrested by anything which has even the appearance of truth; and so we fall asleep on clouds.”

You have to be like the pebble in the stream, keeping the grain and rolling along without being dissolved or dissolving anything else.

Arcturus Descending
Consciousness Seeker

Posts: 15190
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 5:15 pm
Location: A state of unknowing

### Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

James S Saint wrote:
Mr Reasonable wrote:You're telling me that answers.com says that because the particles of matter are so small that you can't observe them, that they're not matter, because you have to observe them with your nose?

Dude.

No. The dudette is telling you that what we call odor is a sensation, regardless of whatever material/s might or might not be involved.

Nice that someone got it.

Thank you, James. I so enjoy being a woman.
Joseph Joubert ~~

It is better to debate a question without settling it than to settle a question without debating it.

The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.

“We love repose of mind so well, that we are arrested by anything which has even the appearance of truth; and so we fall asleep on clouds.”

You have to be like the pebble in the stream, keeping the grain and rolling along without being dissolved or dissolving anything else.

Arcturus Descending
Consciousness Seeker

Posts: 15190
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 5:15 pm
Location: A state of unknowing

### Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Arcturus Descending wrote:
James S Saint wrote:
Mr Reasonable wrote:You're telling me that answers.com says that because the particles of matter are so small that you can't observe them, that they're not matter, because you have to observe them with your nose?

Dude.

No. The dudette is telling you that what we call odor is a sensation, regardless of whatever material/s might or might not be involved.

Nice that someone got it.

Thank you, James. I so enjoy being a woman.

Someone says "I smell a rat"

Both utterances flow from the same fountain ... the mind.

I see no distinction.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

Thomas Kempis 1380-1471

pilgrim-seeker_tom
Philosopher

Posts: 1858
Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2006 11:16 am

### Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

surreptitious57 wrote:

It is true that evolution cannot be proven. But that is because proof is a formal procedure applicable to axiomatically complete systems of deductive logic. Such
as mathematics and syllogisms. It does not apply to science as that is primarily an inductive discipline. Science only references disproof not proof. But this aside evolution has probably the largest body of evidence to support any scientific theory. As not only does it occur but it can do so within a human lifetime. Between
1988 - 2014 experiments conducted at Michigan University by Richard Lenski from only an initial dozen populations of E coli produced 60 000 generations. Which resulted in variation within speciation and the evolutionary development of new traits not present in the original samples. And this is merely one example of the absolutely overwhelming evidence for evolution which has been observed at both macro and micro levels. Indeed it has so much evidence for it it needs no more

There are three distinct ways the genetic information in the DNA can be changed and generate a mutation that could contribute to evolution.

1. It involves no new additional genetic information being formed, but it involves the loss of preexisting information that results in changes.
2. It involves the transfer of new genetic information from one organism to another, which translates, it can produce a new strain of an organism but not a new type of organism.

The E. coli bacteria was still E. coli bacteria, it had not evolved into another species of bacteria.

3. Would involve the generation of totally new useful genetic information within the DNA code of an organism by some supposed process in nature.

Dr Lenski's experiments revolve around the use of existing genetic information and that the potential to produce the new traits were already encoded for in some latent manner in the DNA. On the basis of the levels of mutations observed by Dr Lenski the probability of all this new genetic information arising by chance is so close to zero as to be impossible. In Wikipedia when documenting Dr Lenski's experiments it reads:

Other researchers have experimented on evolving aerobic citrate-utilizing E. coli. Dustin Van Hofwegen et al., working in the lab of Scott Minnich, were able to isolate 46 independent citrate-utilizing mutants of E. coli in just 12 to 100 generations using highly prolonged selection under starvation, during which the bacteria would sample more mutations more rapidly.[44] In their research, the genomic DNA sequencing revealed an amplification of the citT and dctA loci, and rearrangement of DNA were the same class of mutations identified in the experiment by Richard Lenski and his team. They concluded that the rarity of the citrate-utilizing mutant in Lenski's research was likely a result of the selective experimental conditions used by his team rather than being a unique evolutionary speciation event.
The man that walks his own road, walks alone

Old Norse Proverb

A Shieldmaiden
Philosopher

Posts: 1958
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:13 am

### Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

pilgrim-seeker_tom

Someone says "I smell a rat"

Both utterances flow from the same fountain ... the mind.

I see no distinction.

I think that I'm more capable of smelling that "figurative" rat than the actual one.
Both utterances? What is the other utterance?
There may be what is considered to be the universal mind BUT each individual mind is capable of perceiving and interpreting and separating knowledge differently.
My mind is different in ways than yours - I can see distinctions where some cannot as I surmise that there are instances where you can also "see" them where I cannot.

If one is yards away from the roses and the scent of those roses escapes into the air and flow to your nose, can you then intuit a distinction between the rose and its scent? The scent has left "the building" in a manner of speaking, has become separate from the roses albeit still a part of them. The scent is the effect or sensation of those tiny little particles which are invisible to the naked.

Do you see a distinction between cause and effect albeit we can at times know and trace back the relationship. Okay, I'm moving away from it all here.
Joseph Joubert ~~

It is better to debate a question without settling it than to settle a question without debating it.

The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.

“We love repose of mind so well, that we are arrested by anything which has even the appearance of truth; and so we fall asleep on clouds.”

You have to be like the pebble in the stream, keeping the grain and rolling along without being dissolved or dissolving anything else.

Arcturus Descending
Consciousness Seeker

Posts: 15190
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 5:15 pm
Location: A state of unknowing

### Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

A Shieldmaiden wrote:
surreptitious57
wrote:
Those with metaphysical or supernatural solutions will therefore always find a reason to fill those gaps. But I think only science can fill them. Where it cannot then they should be left empty

For example, there is no proven explanation for a living cell to form from nonliving molecules, it is impossible and the Big Bang concept is an evolutionary idea, that has never been proven and should be left empty. Science is supposed to be knowledge, that is demonstrated, observed and repeated. Evolution cannot be proven, or even tested,,,,,,,,, only believed. As in religion, christians believe it to be true and acknowledge the fact that they believe it. In science, however, it is not supposed to be something one 'believes", science is essentially knowledge and evolution is something not proven or tested, yet there are scientists who accept this unproven concept and believe it, so this essentially creates a religious element out of evolution. Amazing.

Both, the biblical and its successor the scientific genesis, originate in the belief (or hope) that everything starts at A and proceeds to B (latter is usually believed to be "better").

waechter418

Posts: 111
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:33 pm
Location: Costa Rica

### Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

waechter418 wrote:Both, the biblical and its successor the scientific genesis, originate in the belief (or hope) that everything starts at A and proceeds to B (latter is usually believed to be "better").

Yeah ... that's the traditional posture.

Let's take a simple example ... food.

Fidel Castro put food in it's proper perspective when he said ... "with no food who needs a doctor."

Historically nature controlled the population of the human species via food supply.

At some point man intervened and decided they could do it better ... the advent of the agricultural epoch ... from grain storage silos to GMO foods today.

Today some argue the planet is severely overpopulated ... again man intervenes ... introduces birth control via the food chain and develops technology enabling selective genocide.

Humanoids will eventually be able to survive on man made chemical concoctions while ordinary humans die from being forced to eat from the trough of a contaminated/poisonous food chain.

An ingenious plan really.
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

Thomas Kempis 1380-1471

pilgrim-seeker_tom
Philosopher

Posts: 1858
Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2006 11:16 am

### Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

James S Saint wrote:Mind is deceivable. That alone tells you the answer.

Recommend reading: The discourse on Prajna (Mind essence) - by Hui-Neng

https://terebess.hu/zen/HuinengCleary.pdf

waechter418

Posts: 111
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:33 pm
Location: Costa Rica

### Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

waechter418 wrote:
James S Saint wrote:Mind is deceivable. That alone tells you the answer.

Recommend reading: The discourse on Prajna (Mind essence) - by Hui-Neng

https://terebess.hu/zen/HuinengCleary.pdf

Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend

Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

### Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

isnt life fun ...?!

waechter418

Posts: 111
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:33 pm
Location: Costa Rica

### Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

waechter418 wrote:isnt life fun ...?!

It certainly can be. .. a gift from the gods, a reprieve for the times when the human creature has to swallow more at times than it can chew.

I have also found that life is much more fun when we place value on those things which cannot be bought ~~ only experienced and enjoyed.
Oh, how the gods at times do love me.
Joseph Joubert ~~

It is better to debate a question without settling it than to settle a question without debating it.

The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.

“We love repose of mind so well, that we are arrested by anything which has even the appearance of truth; and so we fall asleep on clouds.”

You have to be like the pebble in the stream, keeping the grain and rolling along without being dissolved or dissolving anything else.

Arcturus Descending
Consciousness Seeker

Posts: 15190
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 5:15 pm
Location: A state of unknowing

### Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Mind is not something strange; it might be treated strangely, and even be mistreated, but these are symptoms of self-estrangement - after all mind is one-self.

waechter418

Posts: 111
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:33 pm
Location: Costa Rica

### Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

"What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses" (Albert)

...and the coordinator (interpreter?) of the senses is called mind (Michael)

waechter418

Posts: 111
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:33 pm
Location: Costa Rica

Previous