Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

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Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby waechter418 » Tue Oct 11, 2016 9:54 pm

According to Taoist- Zen- Meta- & Quantum-physics, things become only defined when they are observed.
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Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby phyllo » Tue Oct 11, 2016 10:06 pm

So what happened before anyone was alive?

And what happens when nobody is looking?

What does 'defined' mean anyways?
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Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby Is_Yde_opN » Tue Oct 11, 2016 10:21 pm

waechter418 wrote:According to ... Quantum-physics, things become only defined when they are observed.


A gold atom doesn't become something else than a gold atom when we observe it.
When we observe something on an atomic level then we can determine some quality about the atom but by doing so we interfere physically through the measuring tool and this affects the atom. Current consensus is that if we do not measure the atom, that it is in a state of flux where certain qualities are not discrete but can be thought of as probability distributions.
A probability distribution is not to be confused with something being arbitrary.

Bottom line is, we do not change the atom's qualities by thinking about it or merely recognising it as something but we alter certain qualities at the moment of physically interfering with it through measurement tools.

There is a popular way of explaining manipulation of physical reality via thoughts in some magic teachings. The argument is that the probability distribution is influenced by thoughts to make the desirable outcome more likely.
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Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby WendyDarling » Tue Oct 11, 2016 10:40 pm

Yes. Out of the mind comes matter, but whose mind and what matter (more aptly what matters)?
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Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby James S Saint » Thu Oct 13, 2016 5:39 am

Mind is deceivable. That alone tells you the answer.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

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Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby WendyDarling » Thu Oct 13, 2016 5:46 am

First, conceivable though.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby Prismatic567 » Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:07 am

waechter418 wrote:According to Taoist- Zen- Meta- & Quantum-physics, things become only defined when they are observed.
I agree, however there are lots more necessary explanations for the above statement to make sense of it.
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Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby Prismatic567 » Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:30 am

Is_Yde_opN wrote:
waechter418 wrote:According to ... Quantum-physics, things become only defined when they are observed.


A gold atom doesn't become something else than a gold atom when we observe it.
When we observe something on an atomic level then we can determine some quality about the atom but by doing so we interfere physically through the measuring tool and this affects the atom. Current consensus is that if we do not measure the atom, that it is in a state of flux where certain qualities are not discrete but can be thought of as probability distributions.
A probability distribution is not to be confused with something being arbitrary.

Bottom line is, we do not change the atom's qualities by thinking about it or merely recognising it as something but we alter certain qualities at the moment of physically interfering with it through measurement tools.
Agree with the above but there are more perspectives to it.

Long before the discover of the "observer effect", even within the Scientific Framework, it is thought what is observed are things that are independent at they really are.
However, the discovery of the "observer effect" [as mentioned by you above] proved that our human interaction with the object has in influenced on what the object is.

wiki wrote:In physics, the term observer effect refers to changes that the act of observation will make on a phenomenon being observed. This is often the result of instruments that, by necessity, alter the state of what they measure in some manner.


The above of the human influence on the resulting perception is based on sense-organ elements.

However there are philosophers like Kant who argued that certain aspects of whatever is cognized at the conscious levels are influenced by elements [a priori Categories etc.] beyond the sense-organ levels in the inner depths of the brain and driven by our DNA.

Thus all normal humans will see similar things when perceived by the sense-organs but non-humans will not perceived the same thing as what normal human beings perceived. A virus within a cloud will not see an full apple but merely clusters of molecules.

Thus things are only defined when human[s] imposed the totality of their conditions [pre-existing & existing] upon it at the time of the process of cognition.

Note I quoted Kant's Copernican Revolution in another post.

Kant wrote:Hitherto it has been assumed that all our knowledge must conform to objects.
But all attempts to extend our knowledge of objects by establishing something in regard to them a priori, by means of concepts, have, on this assumption, ended in failure.
We must therefore make trial whether we may not have more success in the tasks of metaphysics, if we suppose that objects must conform to our knowledge.
This would agree better with what is desired, namely, that it should be possible to have knowledge of objects a priori, determining something in regard to them prior to their being given.

We should then be proceeding precisely on the lines of Copernicus' primary hypothesis.

Failing of satisfactory progress in explaining the movements of the heavenly bodies on the supposition that they all revolved round the spectator, he tried whether he might not have better success if he made the spectator to revolve and the stars to remain at rest.
A similar experiment can be tried in metaphysics, as regards the intuition of objects.
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Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby Prismatic567 » Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:38 am

phyllo wrote:So what happened before anyone was alive?

And what happens when nobody is looking?

What does 'defined' mean anyways?
Nothing independent happened before any one was alive.

The point is it is impossible to make any human independent from whatever conclusions that can only be made by humans.

So what happened before anyone was alive?
Only a human can answer the above and no other living things [at least at the present].
The moment the human answer the question, is a human-made answer.
Thus the answer is interdependent with a human mind.

There cannot be any thing that happened or existed interdependently before humans existed.
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Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby James S Saint » Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:00 pm

Prismatic567 wrote:So what happened before anyone was alive?
Only a human can answer the above and no other living things [at least at the present].
The moment the human answer the question, is a human-made answer.
Thus the answer is interdependent with a human mind.

There cannot be any thing that happened or existed interdependently before humans existed.

Emmm ... no. Logic and language do not work that way.

A monkey could have given the same answer and it still be true. Truth merely requires alignment with reality. It doesn't matter which language is used, nor when any asserted facts were to take place. Logic allows for both prediction of future and of past. No one has to have existed in either case for the predicted assertions to be true. And it doesn't matter who said them or even if they were intentionally spoken by a conscious being. A man need not be on the far side of the Moon to accurately state that there is dust there. Nor need there be a man present a billion years ago for a man to accurately and truthfully state that the Earth existed at that time.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
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Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby phyllo » Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:43 pm

This :
Nothing independent happened before any one was alive.

and this :
There cannot be any thing that happened or existed interdependently before humans existed.
So nothing independent or interdependent happened? What??

This seems to be based on some absurd definition of the words 'happened' and 'existence'.
The point is it is impossible to make any human independent from whatever conclusions that can only be made by humans.
Sure you can.
A human is walking along and a rock falls on his head and kills him. A landslide buries his body. He never saw the rock coming and nobody finds his body.
None the less, he is dead. That's completely independent of what he thinks or thought. And it is independent of what any other humans think.
"Who loves not wine, woman and song, remains a fool his whole life long."

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"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
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"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby Arminius » Sun Oct 16, 2016 1:57 pm

James S Saint wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:So what happened before anyone was alive?
Only a human can answer the above and no other living things [at least at the present].
The moment the human answer the question, is a human-made answer.
Thus the answer is interdependent with a human mind.

There cannot be any thing that happened or existed interdependently before humans existed.

Emmm ... no. Logic and language do not work that way.

A monkey could have given the same answer and it still be true. Truth merely requires alignment with reality. It doesn't matter which language is used, nor when any asserted facts were to take place. Logic allows for both prediction of future and of past. No one has to have existed in either case for the predicted assertions to be true. And it doesn't matter who said them or even if they were intentionally spoken by a conscious being. A man need not be on the far side of the Moon to accurately state that there is dust there. Nor need there be a man present a billion years ago for a man to accurately and truthfully state that the Earth existed at that time.

Yes, and this statement would also be right, if a well known scientist went to the far side of the Moon and said "I have evidence for the fact that there is no dust there". Science has to do with two sides of its "coin": theory (logic, language) and empirism (scientific practice, experience) - both connected with deduction and induction. In that said example they would have to go on with visiting the far side of the Moon and perhaps change some physical and chemical theories or fire the said well known scientist. :wink:
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Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby waechter418 » Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:21 pm

Thanks gentlemen, your participation has so far been a great pleasure !

A tickle for the matter-enthusiasts:

Einstein showed us that matter is just an emergent form of energy and energy itself is massless. Ergo: matter and mind (which is apparently an energy too) are interrelated. Attempts to separate them, cannot solidify matter, but can confuse/fragment mind.
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Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:22 pm

waechter418 wrote:According to Taoist- Zen- Meta- & Quantum-physics, things become only defined when they are observed.


They are in a kind of symbiotic relationship.
What can mind actually do without matter? without first observing the "real" world?
The potter needs its material to form ideas, to create, to shape.
What purpose would the senses have in total silent darkness?


The cheese really doesn't stand alone. The mouse is in perfect harmony with it. ..ready to grasp it.lol
Last edited by Arcturus Descending on Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

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Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby Amorphos » Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:44 pm

I don’t think mind and matter are separate and if they were, what connects them? Something which is half matter and half mind?

In my schemata you have the simplest one thing of which reality primarily is, and that is the philosophers stone. Then you get information form in it, and that tells it what to be ~ informs it.
so your mind is a bunch of informations acting upon the primal fabric, the result is a thing which exists, but that existence is universally made with the same material [philosophers stone]. like the sandman we are raised from nothing and return to nothing, except that there is something else making information occur. So a process or something which processes, which makes things manifest from nothing. When we return to nothing that same eternal process is still there and remember, it is the thing which brought you into being such that you now exist.

Mind exists because all its qualities already exists in the original stone, you just need to tell it [info] to think and it will or not and it wont ~ like brains or rocks.
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Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:11 pm

waechter418 wrote:Thanks gentlemen, your participation has so far been a great pleasure !

A tickle for the matter-enthusiasts:

Einstein showed us that matter is just an emergent form of energy and energy itself is massless.


Einstein was a quack as well as quantum physics.

The rigid-body newtonian model is also pure quackery, we know now due to high framerate cameras and archer's paradox. All is fluid.
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Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby Xunzian » Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:07 am

waechter418 wrote:According to Taoist- Zen- Meta- & Quantum-physics, things become only defined when they are observed.


I know nothing about metaphysics and quantum physics, but I know cows exist . . . . and strongly suspect you understanding of Zen and Daoist thought is crazy shallow.
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Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby Ierrellus » Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:57 pm

My dog sees a large rock. He knows there is something there that he cannot walk though. It's a real physical entity. So he sniffs it and pees on it to mark that he has been there. The same goes for us humans. We know there are things out there which we cannot move or change. What is important to humans and dogs is not that there are objects that are in themselves unknowable, but the pragmatic understanding of how we can use these objects. Our distant ancestors realized that rocks can be used as tools and weapons. And rocks can make neat jewelry.
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Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby waechter418 » Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:38 am

Xunzian wrote:
waechter418 wrote:According to Taoist- Zen- Meta- & Quantum-physics, things become only defined when they are observed.


I know nothing about metaphysics and quantum physics, but I know cows exist . . . . and strongly suspect you understanding of Zen and Daoist thought is crazy shallow.


Would you please enlighten us with your understanding of the attitude of Zen and Taoism regarding the relationship of mind and matter. Thank you.
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Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:54 am

waechter418 wrote:
Xunzian wrote:
waechter418 wrote:According to Taoist- Zen- Meta- & Quantum-physics, things become only defined when they are observed.


I know nothing about metaphysics and quantum physics, but I know cows exist . . . . and strongly suspect you understanding of Zen and Daoist thought is crazy shallow.


Would you please enlighten us with your understanding of the attitude of Zen and Taoism regarding the relationship of mind and matter. Thank you.


Let me take a shot at it ... and later Xunzian can clobber me over the head with his bat too. :-)

1) Zen stems from Taoist thought.

2) Taoist thought stems from the Tao De Jing.

3) The Tao De Jing talks about mind and matter in Chapter 47

Without going out of the door
One may know the all-under-the-sky.
Without looking through the window
One may see the Dao of Heaven
The further one goes,
The less one knows.
Therefore the sage knows without going about,
Understands without seeing,
And accomplishes without taking action
.
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Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby gib » Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:45 am

waechter418 wrote:According to Taoist- Zen- Meta- & Quantum-physics, things become only defined when they are observed.


This is why quantum physics should never be taught to followers of pop culture.

There are multiple (competing) interpretations of quantum mechanics--and by interpretations, I mean unprovable--and the idea that observation is required to determine the state of anything comes out of radical logical positivism, which was pretty popular in philosophy around the time when quantum physics was born; but now-a-days, physicists are a lot more comfortable defining "observation" as pretty much any particle interaction whatsoever--if a particle affects another particles, that's an "observation" according to them--but old interpretations are clung to like hearsay.

^ I think this interpretation of quantum physics is a lot more reasonable. Things still exist in quantum states, but the fact that every particle in existence exerts some effect on every other particle means that these quantum states aren't nearly as uncertain/undetermined as the original "observation" account would have it--everything more or less keeps everything else in a state of relative certainty/determination.

EDIT: and my answer to the thread question is: yes, mind and matter are interdependent.
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Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby Xunzian » Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:48 am

pilgrim_tom wrote:
1) Zen stems from Taoist thought.

2) Taoist thought stems from the Tao De Jing.

3) The Tao De Jing talks about mind and matter in Chapter 47


I'll allow it.

Safe!
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Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby waechter418 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 4:58 pm

CHEERS !
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Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby Along The Way » Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:11 am

I'd image the subjective and the objective are every bit as interdependent as up and down. We have no proof that anything objective exists independently of subjectivity, and likewise we have no proof that anything subjective exists independently of objectivity. On the other hand, we have evidence every moment of our lives that subjectivity and objectivity exist in relation to one another.
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Re: Are Mind and Matter interdependent?

Postby Mr Reasonable » Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:14 am

Are mind and matter actually distinct? I think that's the better question. To ask if they are interdependent is to assume a duality, which is, you know, kind of a big deal in philosophy.
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