The Silent Mind

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The Silent Mind

Postby encode_decode » Sun May 07, 2017 5:30 pm

When one is able to clear ones head of thought. I mean that moment where there is no internal chatter.

One is still able to function autonomously.

The heart still beats.

The lungs still pump air.

The brain is still processing information in the background.

I sit here in the silence and I am able to move my eyes around unconsciously - I mean with out making a decision out aloud in my mind.

Still void of the internal chatter.

I could walk, see, hear, smell and feel without thought. It is a strange feeling because I am so used to the internal chatter.

Yet I can switch the internal chatter on and off at will.

It feels like I have a separate mind - a separate will - one that is void of the internal chatter - I could live like this quite easily and I would have very few needs.

My basic needs would be food, water, shelter, warmth and a place to do my "business".

I would need very little else to survive. It is nearly spectacular.

Yet here we are in today's world with so many perceived needs and wants and so much internal chatter.

What is up with this?

My curiosity it seems is able to function without much conscious effort - I am able to gain knowledge not in the form of words but patterns from my environment - colors and shapes - warmth, cool and smells - sounds - beautiful sounds and scary sounds.

Then comes thought, language, "needs" and wants et cetera. Desires are a strange thing. Internal chatter is a peculiar event. All for what?

Sometimes it feels like I have three minds - two that I think with - the quite mind and the loud mind - and one that is automatic that communicates with these other two - of these other two then:

One is able to function in a void, still able to acquire knowledge and still able to make decisions.

The other is full of loud thoughts, internal chatter, desires, hopes et cetera.

We need very little to survive - so should we be happy for the rest? Should we be grateful for the rest?

We have the rest for a reason - do we know what that reason is?

Mental torture it seems comes from the rest and yet we place such a high value on the "rest".

We are able to torture each other, ourselves and allow others to torture us - sometimes we are tortured even when we don't allow it.

Humankind it seems is a very strange creature and I do not think we are that far removed from the animal kingdom when we allow this torture to go on despite the huge mental powers we are given.

Forget greed - that is not what I am talking about - forget mental problems that is not what I am talking about.

What do you think I am talking about? . . . I think I am talking about the silent mind. I think I am talking about the mind that we are born with or do you think I am wrong?
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    Re: The Silent Mind

    Postby James S Saint » Sun May 07, 2017 5:43 pm

    I think that you are talking about keeping your act together by virtue of finding a higher aim. Without a highest priority, entropic noise dissolves anentropic being (particles disperse into the vast abyss). The divided house eventually falls.
    Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
    Else
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    It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
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    Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

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    Re: The Silent Mind

    Postby encode_decode » Sun May 07, 2017 5:54 pm

    @ James

    James S Saint wrote:I think that you are talking about keeping your act together by virtue of finding a higher aim. Without a highest priority, entropic noise dissolves anentropic being (particles disperse into the vast abyss). The divided house eventually falls.

    I think you might be correct.

    :D

    That was quick.
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      Re: The Silent Mind

      Postby surreptitious57 » Sun May 07, 2017 11:56 pm

      I have very little internal mental chatter these days. Which provides me with a more calm and balanced state of mind. It is a very good
      place to be both psychologically and philosophically. I put it down to being socially isolated and also no longer having any fear of death
      I see myself more as an observer of life rather than a participant in it. And that sense of detachment also adds to my mental relaxation
      A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
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      Re: The Silent Mind

      Postby Amorphos » Wed May 10, 2017 12:35 am

      That the mind can completely detach itself from the workings of the brain, is I think also the reason why the will has ‘power’.

      It’s like being able to get outside of the machine so to say, so that you can push the buttons. Naturally the brain having this functionality generally, means it can also push the buttons, which means we have no will in those instants. That doesn’t mean the brain/body has power over the mind, or vice versa.

      Thus there is I agree a kind of balance, and silence is like surfing that wave. It puts the will and the anti-will on hold, kind of lets them both run concurrent, which gives you peace of mind as if the struggle is calmed by doing that.
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      Re: The Silent Mind

      Postby Arcturus Descending » Sat May 13, 2017 6:34 pm

      Amorphos

      That the mind can completely detach itself from the workings of the brain, is I think also the reason why the will has ‘power’.


      But can the mind REALLY detach itself from the workings of the brain?
      :-k I wonder. I have my doubts of this.
      It might appear to be this way but then again it might just be that the brain is in better working order (chemicals not creating such a dust bowl) and in better harmony with the mind at this time.

      Maybe it's just the language which is being used here.

      If there is not a proper functioning of the brain and mind relationship, what kind of will and power can be achieved?

      That doesn’t mean the brain/body has power over the mind, or vice versa.

      You have the worst kind of toothache. The very worst kind of toothache - pain which stems from the brain. You can feel that pain coursing through every fiber of your body.
      Are you going to tell me, Amorphos, that that brain/body has no effect on the mind?

      Perhaps some people are capable of transcending the brain/mind connection. Maybe the buddhist who sets himself on fire and just sits there silently within the flames. But perhaps we simply cannot hear his roar above the roar of the flames.

      Thus there is I agree a kind of balance, and silence is like surfing that wave. It puts the will and the anti-will on hold, kind of lets them both run concurrent, which gives you peace of mind as if the struggle is calmed by doing that
      .

      I love the ocean. I love the waves. Silence is more like simply sitting and observing the waves, becoming one with them.
      Surfing the waves to me is more in line with active or proactive living.
      “How can a bird that is born for joy
      Sit in a cage and sing?”
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      “Little Fly
      Thy summers play,
      My thoughtless hand
      Has brush'd away.

      Am not I
      A fly like thee?
      Or art not thou
      A man like me?

      For I dance
      And drink & sing:
      Till some blind hand
      Shall brush my wing.

      If thought is life
      And strength & breath:
      And the want
      Of thought is death;

      Then am I
      A happy fly,
      If I live,
      Or if I die”
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      Re: The Silent Mind

      Postby Amorphos » Sat May 13, 2017 7:01 pm

      Arcturus Descending

      But can the mind REALLY detach itself from the workings of the brain?


      One is subjective the other is an object, collection of. Apart from that consciousness sleeps while the brain is still working away, it can become completely unconscious while all those 90bil neurons are still functioning and ‘thinking’.
      Watch how things die always in an instant, whereas a robot can have half its brain blown out but still be 'alive' and thinking with what's left.

      - I do think there is a relationship - of course there is.


      You have the worst kind of toothache. The very worst kind of toothache - pain which stems from the brain. You can feel that pain coursing through every fiber of your body.
      Are you going to tell me, Amorphos, that that brain/body has no effect on the mind?


      Pain is subjective [an established fact] and can be bridged [that’s why we pass out when it gets too much], but that’s not what I was stating. I was saying that neither parties have power over one another because the consciousness is subjective - detachable, and can exist in any part of the brain or all or it and none of it [when unconscious].

      The surfing thing was not so literal - if you re-read it.
      The truth is naked,
      Once it is written it is lost.
      Genius is the result of the entire product of man.
      The cosmic insignificance of humanity, shows the cosmic insignificance of a universe without humanity.
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      Re: The Silent Mind

      Postby eaglerising » Tue May 30, 2017 2:58 am

      endcode_decode talks about the "silent mind." A mind that is free of thought (the endless chatter in the head).
      I don't know if he or she realizes it or not, but it is IMPOSSIBLE for anyone who hasn't experienced the absence of thought to comprehend a silent mind. Thought cannot even image a silent mind and sees it as being its demise or death. Therefore, it's going to do everything in its power to convince you of the dangers of such a mind. In turn, you view it as being nonsense, reject it, or ignore it.

      Even if you wanted to be free of thought, you don't know how to achieve it. Some will recommend meditation, not realizing what is commonly viewed as meditation is the ILLUSION of meditation. True meditation comes to you without any effort, as opposed to you attempting to achieve it.

      Many people don't realize there are times when they meditate because they don't pay themselves. On the other hand, if you attentively observe yourself the next time you are totally engrossed in something you love to do, will see the mind is quiet, free of thought. Thus, you may not be aware of the time or your surroundings. The reason being, you are ONE with what you are doing, You may be taking a walk, playing golf, fishing or observing your child. The more you do this, the more you will experience a silent mind. Later on, you will realize you hadn't had a single thought for most the entire day. If you reflect upon these times you will see you functioned better without thought than with it.
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      Re: The Silent Mind

      Postby encode_decode » Wed May 31, 2017 12:07 am

      eaglerising

      eaglerising wrote:endcode_decode talks about the "silent mind." A mind that is free of thought (the endless chatter in the head).
      I don't know if he or she realizes it or not, but it is IMPOSSIBLE for anyone who hasn't experienced the absence of thought to comprehend a silent mind. Thought cannot even image a silent mind and sees it as being its demise or death. Therefore, it's going to do everything in its power to convince you of the dangers of such a mind. In turn, you view it as being nonsense, reject it, or ignore it.

      Even if you wanted to be free of thought, you don't know how to achieve it. Some will recommend meditation, not realizing what is commonly viewed as meditation is the ILLUSION of meditation. True meditation comes to you without any effort, as opposed to you attempting to achieve it.

      Many people don't realize there are times when they meditate because they don't pay themselves. On the other hand, if you attentively observe yourself the next time you are totally engrossed in something you love to do, will see the mind is quiet, free of thought. Thus, you may not be aware of the time or your surroundings. The reason being, you are ONE with what you are doing, You may be taking a walk, playing golf, fishing or observing your child. The more you do this, the more you will experience a silent mind. Later on, you will realize you hadn't had a single thought for most the entire day. If you reflect upon these times you will see you functioned better without thought than with it.

      Spoken like a psychologist.

      :evilfun:

      To understand your post better it might be useful for you to give the psychological definition of mind that you follow.

      Do psychologists really have a concept of what time is?

      :lol:

      The other thing I would have to know before I could answer you properly is: How do you quantify a single thought?

      :-k

      eaglerising wrote:Even if you wanted to be free of thought, you don't know how to achieve it.

      I know of a neuroscience study or two that would disagree. And a study of Buddhist monks that disagrees.

      :o

      Would you say that the mind is subjective and the brain is objective?

      :-"
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        Re: The Silent Mind

        Postby Gloominary » Wed May 31, 2017 3:51 am

        It's impossible to do anything without thinking, except maybe purely reflexive, unconscious things, like breathing and blinking.
        However, there are different forms of thinking, and different degrees.
        You can't completely shut down what could be called linear, or linguistic thinking, and still be conscious at all, however, you can make such thinking more infrequent.
        There are other kinds of thinking the brain does, that aren't easy to articulate, more sensual or emotional, intuitive or concrete kinds.
        It is possible to lessen these forms of thinking too, but some form of thinking is always going on, so long as we're not in deep sleep, or unconscious but not dead.
        Even then, there might be some thinking going on, but it's imperceptible to us, both from an internal, psychological and external, neurological point of view.

        Why would anyone want to lessen their thoughts?
        Well why would anyone want to lessen anything?
        Obviously you can have too much mental exertion, just as you can have too much physical exertion.
        It's important to quieten the mind sometimes, for many reasons.
        One is that the quieter the mind is, the more it can hear things besides itself, perceive them.
        It can also give your mind a break, a much needed rest.
        The more we quieten down, dampen the analytical mind, the more room the intuitive mind has to express itself, and take over.
        Sometimes there's little worth thinking about in your life, little worth analyzing, as things can be riddled with ambiguity, uncertainty, they can't be solved, or it's too hard to solve them, or they don't need to be solved, there's little value in solving them.
        You may be involved in some highly sensuous or physical activity, and your conscious attention needs to be there, or wants to be, engaged with it, rather than over interpreting.
        It just needs to be enjoyed, or executed, not thought a lot about.
        How much storage capacity do we carry in our brains anyways?
        At some point, do we run out of room for some things?
        The more we add, the more we might forget other, more important things.
        The more we add, the more difficult it might be to add more.

        Ultimately it's the here/now that's real, our thoughts about the past, or the future are just that, thoughts, at best they are educated guesses about what might've happened, or might happen, and at worst, idle speculation, conjecture and fantasy, especially when dealing with vast spatial and temporal distances, althou it can be fun to fantasize sometimes, and can be beneficial to open ourselves to possibilities now and then.
        In any case, the past has passed, and the future, as we envision it, might never be.
        If a picture is worth a thousand words, it might be worth a thousand thoughts too, and things in themselves, if there are such things, might be worth a thousand pictures, or at least a FMV.
        Thought simplifies sensation, and sensation itself is a simplification of things, a scratching of the surface.
        Thought compartmentalizes and stores sense and even introspective data of the inner workings of our own consciousness, it then organizes this data across time and space to show causal relations and similarities/differences between things, lumping/splitting, and that is needed in order for us to methodically act, to respond, as opposed to react or reflex.
        However, in this compartmentalizing, storing, sterilizing, preserving and jarring of data, some of the richness and vibrancy, as well as some of the joy and beauty of life is lost.
        Sensation is infinitely more varied than thought, and in a sense, more real, or pure, unadulterated, unrefined, or distilled.
        It's like when humans come along and try to put everything into boxes, you live in this box or house, you work in that one, we cultivate grapes in this one, olives in that one and so on, we also do this mentally, and some of the mystery and the miraculous, the ineffable relationships between things are damaged in this process, the delicate, intricate and subtle exchanges, the web of life.
        We do damage to nature, both when we attempt to overdevelop it, and when we try to overthink it.

        It's a trade off, thinking is not a good, but nor is it an evil.
        It's easy and awfully bipolar, clumsy and simplistic to go from one extreme to the other, from the analytic, obsessive compulsive scientific mind towards say something more akin to a zen, or Pyrrhonian state of consciousness, but much more difficult and necessary to find the ever elusive balance between these two poles.
        Humans fancy themselves and the work they do, naturally, both physical and mental, as very important, we want to leave our mark on everything, and then occasionally we become disenchanted with ourselves, disillusioned, and so we go all the way the other way, towards extreme skepticism, cynicism, primitivism and so on, but I think that if we are to increase our odds of surviving and really, truly thriving, we have to always aim nearer to the center...but the center is not easy to find, it is much less obvious than aiming at one or the other extreme.

        There's a time for everything, a time for war, peace, decay, growth, to diverge and converge, and a time to shut up, to stop thinking, and listen to what others, listen to what the birds, the trees, the wind and the rain are saying.
        They speak to us very softy, and they can be a guide for our behavior, but it's all too easy for the signal to get lost among the neural and automotive traffic, noise and pollution.
        Intuition and improvisation, going with the flow, thinking on your feet, is not a form of stupidity, it's another form of intelligence, it's one modern man is less conscious of, but necessary to tune into for the health and well-being of our lives individually and as a specie, essentially adapting ourselves to nature, rather than the other way round.

        There are different forms of awareness and different degrees, and we should not always strive to maximize one and neglect the others, or neglect to give our minds as a whole a break, to meditate, or sit by the shore, watching the waves wobble to and fro.
        Of course we can only be so disciplined, mentally and physically, and cause of our collective genetics, culture and habits, there is a strong tendency within many men to overthink many a thing, myself very much included, as you might've guessed from reading me, much to our and natures detriment.
        But we only need to be so disciplined...timing is everything.

        There are also certain drugs we take, like caffeine, or foods we eat, like refined sugar, that tend to overstimulate and excite our minds.
        It's much easier to stop, or slow down the chatter when you eat a more balanced diet, and live more holistically in general.
        Excess tends to foster and promote more other forms of excess.
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        Re: The Silent Mind

        Postby eaglerising » Wed May 31, 2017 5:14 am

        Encode_decode –
        Spoken like a psychologist.


        I didn’t realize I sounded like a psychologist. What I posted was based up personal experience as well as working with hundreds of people over a 30 year period.

        Encode_decode –
        To understand your post better it might be useful for you to give the psychological definition of mind that you follow.


        The mind is non-physical (consciousness) and the brain is the physical organ in the head.

        Encode_decode –
        Do psychologists really have a concept of what time is?

        I don’t know. You need to ask them rather than me.

        Encode_decode –
        The other thing I would have to know before I could answer you properly is: How do you quantify a single thought?


        What do you mean by “single thought?”
        There are two types of thought. The difference between them is their source. The source is either consciousness or the contents of the brain (information, knowledge, and belief).

        eaglerising wrote:
        Even if you wanted to be free of thought, you don't know how to achieve it.


        encode_decode –
        I know of a neuroscience study or two that would disagree. And a study of Buddhist monks that disagrees
        .

        I was referring to you, not everyone. Some agree and some don't. Most neuroscientists are unable to see understanding the mind/brain requires both philosophy and science.

        Encode_decode –
        Would you say that the mind is subjective and the brain is objective?

        The brain is neutral, neither subjective nor objective. Thought is subjective and consciousness is both subjective and objective, depending on the level of consciousness.
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        Re: The Silent Mind

        Postby eaglerising » Wed May 31, 2017 5:40 am

        Gloominary – You respond the way you did because you haven't experienced an alternative to thought. Prior to experiencing an alternative to thought, I believed as you do about thought and the silent mind. What I previously posted has to be experienced to understand it.
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        Re: The Silent Mind

        Postby encode_decode » Wed May 31, 2017 6:01 am

        Gloominary - Thank you, that was a great post. I found it to be full of thoughtful content and very stimulating. I think it is quite interesting how you interpret some things. I am going to break my response up into parts because I think there is plenty to talk about here.

        Gloominary wrote:It's impossible to do anything without thinking, except maybe purely reflexive, unconscious things, like breathing and blinking.
        However, there are different forms of thinking, and different degrees.

        I am under the impression that walking is something we do without thinking consciously about it - yet if we so desire we can place a lot of thought into it. Pulmonary and cardiac functions are autonomous - yet somehow connected to our conscious - you can slow your heartbeat and breathing rate just by thinking about it. These things I know from actually trying all three. So yes there is reflexive, unconscious and conscious involvement possible in all three - the reflexive part is a little more primitive.

        The Silent Mind is not an unconscious thing - it is what I notice when I stop thinking in English - and use pure thought in place of it. So it is what you would describe as a different degree of thinking. The Silent Mind is like a placeholder for any natural language such as English - the Silent Mind has its own universal natural language. What I have noticed is that it becomes structured via our native language - but even without our native language it is still there doing the same style of thinking. It might take me a few goes to get the explanation across in an understandable way.

        I totally agree with you that there are different forms of thinking.

        Gloominary wrote:You can't completely shut down what could be called linear, or linguistic thinking, and still be conscious at all, however, you can make such thinking more infrequent.

        You are correct that you cannot completely shut down what could be called linear thinking - I do think however that linguistic thinking could be separated from the linear. Linguistic thinking is what structures the Silent Mind - so even without a social language a language still exists and this is what I would term the primordial subjective language - different for each individual. I hope that makes sense. Therefore I would be inclined to agree somewhat that linguistic thinking plays a big part in being conscious - particularly the part that makes us self aware but not limited to that. Let me ask a question that is slightly off topic: Do you think animals might have something akin to linguistic thinking? You don't have to answer this and sorry if it sounds a bit silly but I often think what it must be like for other creatures.

        Gloominary wrote:There are other kinds of thinking the brain does, that aren't easy to articulate, more sensual or emotional, intuitive or concrete kinds.
        It is possible to lessen these forms of thinking too, but some form of thinking is always going on, so long as we're not in deep sleep, or unconscious but not dead.

        Indeed - I find the emotions to be very difficult to get a grasp on and articulate. Intuition on the other hand I am beginning to get more of a grip on - I will write a thread about it one day when I work out a way to structure the information carefully to avoid ambiguity.
        You are quite correct in the second sentence - flattening the emotions out is possible through self discipline for example. The brain is able to process information while we are asleep but the mind is unconscious is what I am assuming you are saying in the second sentence too. What do you mean by the concrete kinds?

        Gloominary wrote:Even then, there might be some thinking going on, but it's imperceptible to us, both from an internal, psychological and external, neurological point of view.

        I know you are right about this - this goes below the Silent Mind - it is based on a few different styles of encoding. Some neuroscientists are now thinking that even some types of glial cells play a part in the thinking process(trivial to this conversation of course).

        Please correct, debate or discuss my interpretation of your post as you see fit Gloominary.

        :)
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          Re: The Silent Mind

          Postby Gloominary » Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:12 am

          encode_decode wrote:Thank you, that was a great post. I found it to be full of thoughtful content and very stimulating. I think it is quite interesting how you interpret some things. I am going to break my response up into parts because I think there is plenty to talk about here.

          Thanks.

          The Silent Mind is not an unconscious thing - it is what I notice when I stop thinking in English - and use pure thought in place of it. So it is what you would describe as a different degree of thinking. The Silent Mind is like a placeholder for any natural language such as English - the Silent Mind has its own universal natural language. What I have noticed is that it becomes structured via our native language - but even without our native language it is still there doing the same style of thinking. It might take me a few goes to get the explanation across in an understandable way.

          I see what you mean, yea there is sort of pure consciousness, like a light we shine on various people, places and things, and even ourselves introspectively, and this light is capable of generating all kinds of thought, some readily translatable into English or other languages, and some not.
          When you're thinking, it's like the light of consciousness is imposing color, or a grid on whatever you're perceiving, interpreting data, drawing connections between the objects of sensation and the self, memories, categories.
          The light is always there, and I think it's always thinking on some level, but sometimes it's dim, sometimes bright, sometimes processing a lot, and sometimes not very much at all, just watching, aware.

          The western mind is scarcely aware of this fundamental aspect of consciousness, it tends to equate all consciousness with thinking, processing what we're aware of, but there is just being aware, with next to no processing.
          This is a state of consciousness many eastern meditation practices strive to achieve, where one is simply aware.

          I think there's a time for everything, a time to be aware and think, and a time just to be aware.
          In thinking too much about what we're aware of, we kind of miss out on them, in some respects, perhaps in a fundamental respect, we miss out on things as they are, and as they're affecting us and everything else around them, when we think about where they've been, where they're headed, what they're capable of, what they're like/unlike, labeling them, instead of just really, perceiving them, as they are, here, now.
          I'm usually thinking about things myself, and I'd like to experiment more with meditation.
          I mean in a sense the ultimate truth is this...moment.

          You are correct that you cannot completely shut down what could be called linear thinking - I do think however that linguistic thinking could be separated from the linear. Linguistic thinking is what structures the Silent Mind - so even without a social language a language still exists and this is what I would term the primordial subjective language - different for each individual. I hope that makes sense. Therefore I would be inclined to agree somewhat that linguistic thinking plays a big part in being conscious - particularly the part that makes us self aware but not limited to that. Let me ask a question that is slightly off topic: Do you think animals might have something akin to linguistic thinking? You don't have to answer this and sorry if it sounds a bit silly but I often think what it must be like for other creatures.

          Yes linguistic can be separated from linear.
          All thinking heavily bound by language is fundamentally linear I think, some more than others, but not all linear thinking is linguistic, for example, 12 completes this pattern: 3, 6, 9...
          That's an example of numerical linearity, and there are probably other forms of linearity that can't be so easily translated into words, or numbers, like whenever we have trouble explaining something we know or understand, even the most articulate among us.

          Language is limited, and so are numbers, there's only so much phenomena and patterns they can encompass and encapsulate.
          So what is holistic thinking, as opposed to linear?
          It might be basically the same thing, drawing connections between things, this is like that, or that follows from this, or this is this, comparing a thing with an abstraction, an orange is like a spheroid, but it's just holistic thinking is dealing with a lot more variables simultaneously as opposed to sequentially.
          Like you have to process a lot of data to get to the position: government is bad, if you're an anarchist, and as much data as you can account for, demonstrate how you got there, you can't fathom it all, it's too much.

          Or somebody might put you off, like there's just something about them you don't like, that makes you uneasy, but you don't know what or why.
          Your mind is reacting to them on various instinctive and intuitive levels.
          Subtle cues and hints he gave made you feel uneasy about him.
          It might be the fact that he's sweating, or the way he carries himself, or a look he gave you, it's probably all of these things and dozens more, hundreds of data points you synthesized about him simultaneously in an instant, and you couldn't possibly account for them all, and it would be difficult to explain why any one of them is an indication of something nefarious or sinister.
          Such could be called holistic thinking.

          2 + 2 = 4, or all bats are mammals is not holistic, althou a ton of data and creativity originally whet into formulating the category bat or mammal, just regurgitating it is very formulaic, simple, straightforward, but the statement 9/11 was an inside job is, because it requires a seemingly endless stream of data points to affirm or refute.
          In other words, linear thinking is simple, straightforward, more certain, holistic thinking is intricate, fuzzy, ambiguous thinking.
          And yea it's impossible to turn all of this stuff off, especially for an extended period of time, while still being conscious, but you can reduce them, or reduce some of them, like the verbal stuff, or whatever you're focused on reducing.


          Yes the human mind comes equipped with some categories and mechanisms for making sense of the world around it, definitely, and some of these categories and mechanisms are somewhat malleable, by the thinker of them themselves, independently of their culture and language, but also by culture and language.
          And a lot of this stuff is translatable into language or numbers, but some of it is not so easy.
          As language becomes more sophisticated, more thoughts can be articulated, but there's other ways of expressing things besides words, like song and dance, the arts, or facial expressions, gestures, mannerisms, evocation.

          No two people share the exact same way of thinking about the world, the same pre-lingual categories and mechanisms, and nobody makes use of the same lingual categories and mechanism the same way either.
          All of these things are evolving individually and collectively too, mutating.
          And so too with animals, they all possess categories and mechanisms for making sense of the world, all the ones that have a central nervous system at the very least, a brain, and probably many or even all of the ones without a brain, to a lesser extent I would imagine.
          We all process and information, not just reflexively act on it, especially those of us with more sophisticated nervous systems and brains.
          Animals, particularly the social ones like birds and mammals, but even the more asocial, but still somewhat social ones, have means of expressing their thoughts, feelings, intentions and needs to other animals.

          What do you mean by the concrete kinds?

          I think I meant like thinking in images and sounds, like the kind of thinking we do when we're dreaming.
          We use images, sounds and symbols to express connections between things, and uncover their essences, and by essences I don't mean anything spiritual, just like what's essential about a thing, like the shape of an orange is essentially a sphere, or relatively, there's no such thing as a perfect sphere in nature, it's an essence, an idea.

          Yea nonverbal, non-numerical thinking, like poetry, like a mountain might be used as a symbol for some great obstacle or challenge to overcome in your life, or a thing of awe, beauty, worship, or both.
          The way we tend to think in dreams, dream language, in some cases might have something to do with the primordial, pre-linguistic language or languages we were speaking of.
          This language thou is probably not absolute, or universal, thou there's some commonalities between us, because we're all human, and certain things are just more easily symbolized by some things than others, but this language just like word language can be somewhat modified, improved upon, improvised.

          Does a child's brain come equipped with the mountain symbol for the aforementioned qualities?
          Probably not, but upon seeing a mountain for the first time, his brain might be hardwired to make these connections.
          And then some categories like roundness might exist in child's brain prior to ever hearing the word round, or understanding the word it heard, and then there are many subtle categories and mechanisms we use to think we don't yet have words for, and may never have.
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          Re: The Silent Mind

          Postby encode_decode » Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:16 am

          Gloominary - this is the second part of my response.

          Gloominary wrote:Why would anyone want to lessen their thoughts?
          Well why would anyone want to lessen anything?

          Indeed on both counts. I myself was talking about lessening the burden on oneself through understanding ones own needs. Taking some time out to re-prioritize. We are born without our native language so why would we spend so much time using it instead of our subjective silent language. I find people babble on about silly things these days - which is great in the right amount - but I have noticed an excess of small talk. Materialistically people buy so many pointless products because they never thought about the idea of having each of those products in the first place - to be social is not to play "follow the leader" all the time. I am hoping I am making sense.

          Gloominary wrote:Obviously you can have too much mental exertion, just as you can have too much physical exertion.
          It's important to quieten the mind sometimes, for many reasons.
          One is that the quieter the mind is, the more it can hear things besides itself, perceive them.
          It can also give your mind a break, a much needed rest.

          Indeed - too much mental exertion leads to more problems than we can comprehend at the time of the exertion. Quieting the mind is important to allow the words of others to flow in and to perceiving those words. When we understand those around us generally we can avoid problems with those people - and make them feel truly liked. Finally: yes I agree; a much needed rest.

          Gloominary wrote:The more we quieten down, dampen the analytical mind, the more room the intuitive mind has to express itself, and take over.
          Sometimes there's little worth thinking about in your life, little worth analyzing, as things can be riddled with ambiguity, uncertainty, they can't be solved, or it's too hard to solve them, or they don't need to be solved, there's little value in solving them.

          I find total synergy with the first sentence. The second sentence describes most people I know and care for.

          Gloominary wrote:You may be involved in some highly sensuous or physical activity, and your conscious attention needs to be there, or wants to be, engaged with it, rather than over interpreting.
          It just needs to be enjoyed, or executed, not thought a lot about.

          Interesting to think about this - do you think most people might still know how to do this?

          Gloominary wrote:How much storage capacity do we carry in our brains anyways?
          At some point, do we run out of room for some things?
          The more we add, the more we might forget other, more important things.

          We carry more storage capacity than we need for a lifetime of one hundred years. We don't so much run out of room - some things just become less accessed. Forgetting I believe is more about the vicinity in space/time of the memory - the further away it is the less applicable it becomes - memory to each individual is just a time based hierarchy of analogy and vicinity.

          Gloominary wrote:The more we add, the more difficult it might be to add more.

          This is true but not for the reasons most people think. The theories are quite different on this topic. One is that plasticity gives way to wisdom. My own theory involves mental cross-talk in a war with wisdom - hopefully that makes sense.

          :)
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            Re: The Silent Mind

            Postby eaglerising » Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:50 am

            A silent or quiet mind is a mind free of conditioning. A mind that is NOT made silent, but is silent because it is free of any distraction or disturbance. It’s a mind that is very still and observant. Such a mind is able to see, observe and understand thought. On the other hand, thought is unaware or oblivious of a silent mind. Thought can neither see nor comprehend the concept of a silent mind. Consequently, thought views the absence of itself as being unconscious or dead. It can do no other, which is one of thoughts limitations.

            Thoughts view of the silent mind is like playing peek-a-boo with a baby. It hasn’t developed a conceptual view of itself and its environment. Thus, the baby perceives that you are gone when it covers its eyes so it cannot see you. So, it is thrilled when it removes its hands and sees you. Unlike the baby, you are able to see and understand the difference between the baby’s and your perception. Likewise, the silent mind understands the abilities and limitations of thought. It is able to see and understand what thought cannot.
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            Re: The Silent Mind

            Postby encode_decode » Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:17 pm

            eaglerising

            I am deeply impressed . . . and somewhat humbled . . . I need to understand a few things better so I have broken your post up a little.

            I am going to be as objective as I possibly can at this point in time.

            :)

            eaglerising wrote:A silent or quiet mind is a mind free of conditioning.

            I get where you are coming from and I can not argue with that - it seems I am going to have to either find or invent a different terminology for the concept I am dealing with.

            eaglerising wrote:A mind that is NOT made silent, but is silent because it is free of any distraction or disturbance.

            Again I can not argue with this.

            eaglerising wrote:It’s a mind that is very still and observant.

            This seems a little ambiguous compared to the previous statements - could you clarify for me?

            eaglerising wrote:Such a mind is able to see, observe and understand thought.

            Would not the function of "see, observe" condition any type of mind? I also need more clarification on the "understand thought" part.

            eaglerising wrote:On the other hand, thought is unaware or oblivious of a silent mind.

            Yes, I can see what you are saying - this will give me something valuable to contemplate.

            eaglerising wrote:Thought can neither see nor comprehend the concept of a silent mind.

            Acknowledged.

            eaglerising wrote:Consequently, thought views the absence of itself as being unconscious or dead. It can do no other, which is one of thoughts limitations.

            Acknowledged.

            eaglerising wrote:Thoughts view of the silent mind is like playing peek-a-boo with a baby. It hasn’t developed a conceptual view of itself and its environment. Thus, the baby perceives that you are gone when it covers its eyes so it cannot see you. So, it is thrilled when it removes its hands and sees you. Unlike the baby, you are able to see and understand the difference between the baby’s and your perception.

            A beautiful example that strikes a cord with me.

            =D>

            eaglerising wrote:Likewise, the silent mind understands the abilities and limitations of thought.

            How is this possible?

            eaglerising wrote:It is able to see and understand what thought cannot.

            From what you are saying and your definition from what I can tell so far - I totally agree.

            I do like your writing style eaglerising. You have a way with words.

            :D
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              Re: The Silent Mind

              Postby encode_decode » Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:52 pm

              eaglerising

              eaglerising wrote:endcode_decode talks about the "silent mind." A mind that is free of thought (the endless chatter in the head).

              I understand what you are saying now.

              eaglerising wrote:I don't know if he or she realizes it or not, but it is IMPOSSIBLE for anyone who hasn't experienced the absence of thought to comprehend a silent mind.

              I realize it. I use to be scared of it.

              eaglerising wrote:True meditation comes to you without any effort, as opposed to you attempting to achieve it.

              Yes it does - the other type is more like entrainment.

              It seems to me that you have a lot to offer in way of wisdom. In the future I will endeavor to look through any perceived ambiguity I might encounter to get to the bottom of what you are saying.

              :D
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                Re: The Silent Mind

                Postby eaglerising » Sat Jun 03, 2017 2:18 pm

                Encode_Decode - You are to be congratulated for examining my post as opposed to defending your perception. It reveals a lot about you and it is very favorable.

                You asked: How is a silent mind able to understand the abilities and limitations of thought? Seeing you asked that question, I will help you answer it by asking, “How is the mind of an adult able to understand what a baby and child cannot?”

                Here is another clue. We need something different from ourselves which acts like a mirror to see ourselves. Nothing of itself is able to see and understand itself.
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                Re: The Silent Mind

                Postby eaglerising » Sat Jun 03, 2017 2:44 pm

                P.S. I neglected to thank you for commenting on my writing style.

                Here is something to ponder upon. What if our questions help us see we already understand, but are unaware of it? In other words, the answer to our question is contained within the question.
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                Re: The Silent Mind

                Postby encode_decode » Sat Jun 03, 2017 2:48 pm

                eaglerising

                eaglerising wrote:You asked: How is a silent mind able to understand the abilities and limitations of thought? Seeing you asked that question, I will help you answer it by asking, “How is the mind of an adult able to understand what a baby and child cannot?”

                Here is another clue. We need something different from ourselves which acts like a mirror to see ourselves. Nothing of itself is able to see and understand itself.

                Thank you for the kind words and your polite response - that reveals a lot about you and it is very favorable.

                I will contemplate your question and clue and get back to you.

                :D

                eaglerising wrote:P.S. I neglected to thank you for commenting on my writing style.

                You are very welcome.

                eaglerising wrote:Here is something to ponder upon. What if our questions help us see we already understand, but are unaware of it? In other words, the answer to our question is contained within the question.

                I really like that.
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                  Response to Gloominary - Part 3 - The Silent Mind

                  Postby encode_decode » Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:50 pm

                  Gloominary - this is the third part of my response to your post which can be found here.

                  The first part of my response can be found here.
                  A response from Gloominary to my first response can be found here.
                  The second part of my response can be found here.

                  I suggest to the reader to open these links in new tabs to ease navigation,
                  - that will keep this thread location in the browser in this tab.
                  - alternatively, hitting the back button works too.


                  As previously stated: I found your post to be full of thoughtful content and very stimulating.

                  Gloominary wrote:Ultimately it's the here/now that's real, our thoughts about the past, or the future are just that, thoughts, at best they are educated guesses about what might've happened, or might happen, and at worst, idle speculation, conjecture and fantasy, especially when dealing with vast spatial and temporal distances, although it can be fun to fantasize sometimes, and can be beneficial to open ourselves to possibilities now and then.

                  As simple as the case may be what you have written provides some real depth. Fantasizing is indeed good - it exercises our imagination which can lead to invention. The Ancient Greeks had this right with the concept of Mythos. Reading a great book or watching a good movie can really take us there.

                  Gloominary wrote:In any case, the past has passed, and the future, as we envision it, might never be.

                  Too true.

                  Gloominary wrote:If a picture is worth a thousand words, it might be worth a thousand thoughts too, and things in themselves, if there are such things, might be worth a thousand pictures, or at least a FMV.

                  What does FMV mean?

                  Gloominary wrote:Thought simplifies sensation, and sensation itself is a simplification of things, a scratching of the surface.

                  This had a profound impact on me. This sentence inspired me writing the following:

                    Thoughts themselves are confined to the sensations that drive them whether internal or external. Another person's thought that you are reading might stimulate a thought of your own. Confinements then can be thought of as seeds in the forest of mind.

                  Gloominary wrote:Thought compartmentalizes and stores sense and even introspective data of the inner workings of our own consciousness, it then organizes this data across time and space to show causal relations and similarities/differences between things, lumping/splitting, and that is needed in order for us to methodically act, to respond, as opposed to react or reflex.

                  This is so true. I call this concept vicinity and analogy and it is part of a triangulation technique written by a guy called Nino who in turn calls them vic and ana - my technique on the other hand remains binary in its nature. The vicinity encompasses the time and space and the analogy covers causal relations.

                  Gloominary wrote:However, in this compartmentalizing, storing, sterilizing, preserving and jarring of data, some of the richness and vibrancy, as well as some of the joy and beauty of life is lost.

                  I totally agree with you - quantifying a thought de-qualifies it.

                  Gloominary wrote:Sensation is infinitely more varied than thought, and in a sense, more real, or pure, unadulterated, unrefined, or distilled.

                  I agree with the sentiment - I would suggest however that each part of the sensation has no real idea associated with it - it is only when the sensation is complete and transitions to the next that the quality builds to be pure and unadulterated. This would be the essence of the here/now thought.

                  Gloominary wrote:It's like when humans come along and try to put everything into boxes, you live in this box or house, you work in that one, we cultivate grapes in this one, olives in that one and so on, we also do this mentally, and some of the mystery and the miraculous, the ineffable relationships between things are damaged in this process, the delicate, intricate and subtle exchanges, the web of life.

                  The experience itself is a transitioning of moments that can never be bought back and as you might suggest the here/now in this regard is the most important time.

                  Gloominary wrote:We do damage to nature, both when we attempt to overdevelop it, and when we try to overthink it.

                  There is much that can gained from this one sentence.

                  Many times I have heard people say "now more than ever we understand ourselves" but I often wonder whether by quantifying information into books and other forms of historical archives what it must have been like back at the time these archives were collated - the real feeling must have been lost to time.

                  :-k
                  Last edited by encode_decode on Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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                    Re: The Silent Mind

                    Postby Arcturus Descending » Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:31 pm

                    eaglerising wrote:



                    The brain is neutral, neither subjective nor objective
                    .

                    But is the brain really neutral? I don't know - I can't say but what do YOU mean when YOU say that the brain is neutral?



                    Thought is subjective


                    My thinking is that thought can be both subjective ~ "Isn't that an awesome tree?"

                    and objective ~ "A single tree produces approximately 260 pounds of oxygen per year. That means two mature trees can supply enough oxygen annually to support a family of four.I don't


                    and consciousness is both subjective and objective, depending on the level of consciousness.


                    I don't know. I may be wrong here but would you necessarily say the above?
                    Consciousness has more to do with personal awareness and universal awareness...the way we *see* and *sensate* things.
                    Subjective and objective, for me, have more to do with perception.

                    I realize that in order to think there has to be consciousness but is consciousness the same as thinking?

                    I've just confused myself. :lol:
                    “How can a bird that is born for joy
                    Sit in a cage and sing?”
                    ― William Blake


                    “Little Fly
                    Thy summers play,
                    My thoughtless hand
                    Has brush'd away.

                    Am not I
                    A fly like thee?
                    Or art not thou
                    A man like me?

                    For I dance
                    And drink & sing:
                    Till some blind hand
                    Shall brush my wing.

                    If thought is life
                    And strength & breath:
                    And the want
                    Of thought is death;

                    Then am I
                    A happy fly,
                    If I live,
                    Or if I die”
                    ― William Blake, Songs of Innocence and of Experience


                    “No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings.”
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                    Re: The Silent Mind

                    Postby encode_decode » Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:04 pm

                    Arcturus Descending

                    Arcturus Descending wrote:I realize that in order to think there has to be consciousness but is consciousness the same as thinking?

                    I've just confused myself. :lol:

                    Actually, I think you are on to something there.

                    :D

                    Thinking is a function of the mind and consciousness would be a level of awareness.

                    :-k

                    In this instance then: The Silent Mind is when the thinking is peaceful and the awareness is high.
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                      Re: The Silent Mind

                      Postby Arcturus Descending » Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:32 pm

                      encode_decode

                      For me, in this moment, perhaps because I am tired

                      The Silent Mind is when the thinking is peaceful and the awareness is high.


                      The Silent Mind for me is when all desire and desire toward thought has dissolved into nothingness and awareness simply IS. ..even to the point of unawareness. No peaceful, no high - just ...

                      just BEING - like a leaf on the ground.

                      Now that is Silent.
                      “How can a bird that is born for joy
                      Sit in a cage and sing?”
                      ― William Blake


                      “Little Fly
                      Thy summers play,
                      My thoughtless hand
                      Has brush'd away.

                      Am not I
                      A fly like thee?
                      Or art not thou
                      A man like me?

                      For I dance
                      And drink & sing:
                      Till some blind hand
                      Shall brush my wing.

                      If thought is life
                      And strength & breath:
                      And the want
                      Of thought is death;

                      Then am I
                      A happy fly,
                      If I live,
                      Or if I die”
                      ― William Blake, Songs of Innocence and of Experience


                      “No bird soars too high if he soars with his own wings.”
                      ― William Blake
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