Death

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Re: Death

Postby WendyDarling » Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:07 pm

There are all these places people have concocted, rather than accept that the dead know nothing.

Living souls, never dying souls.

I shall return with my scriptural evidence I am certain. [-o< :evilfun:
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Re: Death

Postby zinnat » Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:42 pm

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:Empirical evidence overwhelmingly points to "dead forever".

Okay.

Despite the overwhelming empirical evidence Phyllo's precis is surprising ... "I'll go out on a limb"

Sanjay ... seems you have exposed a frightful human emotion ... humiliation. :-)

Will you allow me a question?

What stage of body decomposition exists ... "since some weeks"?

Body Decomposition Timeline

24-72 hours after death — the internal organs decompose.

3-5 days after death — the body starts to bloat and blood-containing foam leaks from the mouth and nose.

8-10 days after death — the body turns from green to red as the blood decomposes and the organs in the abdomen accumulate gas.

Several weeks after death — nails and teeth fall out.

1 month after death — the body starts to liquify.

All that technical things are not a issue here. What if the body is kept in cold condition to avoid decomposition?


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Re: Death

Postby phyllo » Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:56 pm

All that technical things are not a issue here. What if the body is kept in cold condition to avoid decomposition?
Oh??

So now the body is flash-frozen to preserve it??? And subsequently if it is thawed out and the person resurrected? (Assuming one has the technical ability to do this.)

This seems to run up into a logical problem ... you could potentially flash-freeze a live person and then 'revive' him.

So if you flash-freeze a person at the moment of death, how do you that he is effectively dead? You lost that period of time after death which confirms that the person is really dead. Was that actually "the moment of death" or not? You don't know.
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Re: Death

Postby zinnat » Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:54 pm

phyllo wrote:
All that technical things are not a issue here. What if the body is kept in cold condition to avoid decomposition?
Oh??

So now the body is flash-frozen to preserve it???

I have not said anything like that. My answer is just to address the issue of decomposition.


And subsequently if it is thawed out and the person resurrected? (Assuming one has the technical ability to do this.)

Is it possible?

This seems to run up into a logical problem ... you could potentially flash-freeze a live person and then 'revive' him.

Again, is it possible by all scientific means and knowledge we have till date?

So if you flash-freeze a person at the moment of death, how do you that he is effectively dead?

By the established benchmarks like absence of breath, heartbeat and brain activity etc.

You lost that period of time after death which confirms that the person is really dead. Was that actually "the moment of death" or not? You don't know.

The actual moment of the death is not important. The only thing which is important is whether one becomes dead once or not.


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Re: Death

Postby zinnat » Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:04 pm

Secondly phyllo, i am not going to use any such thing/theory in my reasoning which has not be empirically proved yet. I will rely on only such things which are proven scientifically and anyone can confirm it.

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Re: Death

Postby phyllo » Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:09 pm

I'm not sure why you brought up the idea of keeping the body cold in order to avoid decomposition.

Does this discussion of death depend on preserving the body or not?
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Re: Death

Postby zinnat » Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:36 pm

phyllo wrote:I'm not sure why you brought up the idea of keeping the body cold in order to avoid decomposition.

Does this discussion of death depend on preserving the body or not?


The issue of keeping in the cold comes only because pilgrim seeker tom said that the body will start decomposing afetr three days.

As i said above, preserving the body is a not a issue here. The only issue e\relevant here is whether one is declared once dead according to our establish medical/scientific benchmarks or not.

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Re: Death

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:42 am

All that technical things are not a issue here. What if the body is kept in cold condition to avoid decomposition?


Sanjay ... thanks for addressing my question. Body decomposition is not universal ... apparently there are numerous exceptions to the norm ... Ste Bernadette comes to mind. I observed her corpse in Nevers France ... while some cosmetic work has been acknowledge it remains a wonder/mystery.

Recovery from "Clinical Death" is not new ... though the time frame between death and recovery is always only a few minutes. Your story mentions "since several weeks" ... an example in a league of it's own.

Is There Life After Death? Study Suggests Consciousness Continues After Heartbeat Stops

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/10 ... 50582.html

While I can't say I 'know' it is possible ... I believe it is possible.
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Re: Death

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:54 am

WendyDarling wrote:
There are all these places people have concocted, rather than accept that the dead know nothing.

Living souls, never dying souls.

I shall return with my scriptural evidence I am certain. [-o< :evilfun:


2 Kings 2:11

As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. 12 Elisha saw this and cried out, “My father! My father!


The Biblical chatter about Elijah's return to life on earth are too many to mention.
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Re: Death

Postby A Shieldmaiden » Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:02 am

zinnat

Are you referring to the yogis who claim to be able to stop the heart beating? I recall something about this when I visited India.

Nevertheless, the scientific evidence is slim to none that yogis can voluntarily stop their heart.
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Re: Death

Postby zinnat » Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:10 am

A Shieldmaiden wrote:zinnat

Are you referring to the yogis who claim to be able to stop the heart beating? I recall something about this when I visited India.

Nevertheless, the scientific evidence is slim to none that yogis can voluntarily stop their heart.


No, i am not talking about yogies.

By the way, there is no such yogi who can stop breathing, lose the pulse and heartbeat even for one hour and becomes alive again. If anyone claims so, he is simply lying.

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Re: Death

Postby zinnat » Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:02 pm

I think i have waited enough for replies. I will present my argument tomorrow.

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Re: Death

Postby zinnat » Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:49 pm

Sorry for the delay. Next post follows in an hour.

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Re: Death

Postby zinnat » Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:24 pm

There is a breed of frog found in Alaska which is called woodfrog. Its botanical name is Rana sylvatica. We all know that frogs go into hibernation in winters. Woodfrog does the same but it goes far beyond normal hibernation.

As the wood frog is freezing, its heart continues pumping the protective glucose around its body, but the frog’s heart slows and eventually stops. All other organs stop functioning. The frog doesn’t use oxygen and actually appears to be dead. In fact, if you opened up a frozen frog, the organs would look like “beef jerky” and the frozen water around the organs like a “snow cone,” says Jon Costanzo, a physiological ecologist at Miami University in Ohio who studies freeze-tolerance.

When in its frogcicle state, as much as 70 percent of the water in a frog’s body can be frozen, write researchers Jack Layne and Richard Lee in their 1995 article (pdf) in Climate Research. Frogs can survive all winter like this, undergoing cycles of freezing and thawing.


As the frog freezes solid like a Popsicle, its heart stops, blood flow and breathing cease, and brain activity disappears. It is clinically dead, and it remains this way for weeks at a time. In spring the frog thaws and miraculously comes back to life, leaping and jumping around only hours after being as stiff as a brick.


Does winter here wipe out large numbers of wood frogs—or are they hardier than we think? Don Larson, a PhD student at the University of Alaska, Fairbanks, studied wood frogs both in the lab and the Alaskan forests to look for the answer.

Larson and his coauthors found 18 wood frogs that were preparing for winter and put temperature sensors into their hiding places. They held other frogs in outdoor enclosures or brought them into the lab to be frozen artificially. (Video taken of the enclosure frogs, below, showed that the animals create holes for themselves under the leaf litter by spinning in circles—like a dog settling down for a nap. If uncovered by a scientist, the frogs dug back down until they were hidden again.)

Frogs in the wild stayed frozen for an average of 193 days. During this time, sensors showed that the temperature in their habitats averaged –6.3°C (21°F). At some points, temperatures dropped as low as –18.1°C, or just below 0 Fahrenheit. Despite the conditions, which were worse than anything recorded for wood frogs before, every frog survived.


I accidentally came to know about this while searching on the net for something else. I became curious and looked into the reasons. The survival of the woodfrogs happens due to a very special chemical procedure. When ice touches the skin of a woodfrog, it starts increasing the sugar level into some cells, which goes as high as 13 times than the normal. This high level of concentration of sugar in some cells save those from freezing. in other words, one can say that these cells remain alive during hibernation.


So, does they not become clinically dead before coming to life again?
Does that not mean that the death of mere brain is not enough to be dead forever?
Does that also not mean that there must be something else other than heartbeat and brain which keeps them alive?


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Re: Death

Postby phyllo » Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:35 pm

So, does they not become clinically dead before coming to life again?
Does that not mean that the death of mere brain is not enough to be dead forever?
Does that also not mean that there must be something else other than heartbeat and brain which keeps them alive?
But humans don't have the same physiology as frogs.

When I asked if preserving the body was significant to this discussion, you said "no". So now I'm confused because freezing clearly prevents bacteria and other agents of decay (molds and fungus) from destroying the frog's body.
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Re: Death

Postby Alf » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:05 pm

zinnat wrote:There is a breed of frog found in Alaska which is called woodfrog. Its botanical name is Rana sylvatica. We all know that frogs go into hibernation in winters. Woodfrog does the same but it goes far beyond normal hibernation.

I accidentally came to know about this while searching on the net for something else. I became curious and looked into the reasons. The survival of the woodfrogs happens due to a very special chemical procedure. When ice touches the skin of a woodfrog, it starts increasing the sugar level into some cells, which goes as high as 13 times than the normal. This high level of concentration of sugar in some cells save those from freezing. in other words, one can say that these cells remain alive during hibernation.

So, does they not become clinically dead before coming to life again?

No. There is still heartbeat and brain activity.

zinnat wrote:Does that not mean that the death of mere brain is not enough to be dead forever?

No.

zinnat wrote:[u]Does that also not mean that there must be something else other than heartbeat and brain which keeps them alive?

That is different from what you have asked in your opening post.

zinnat wrote:What is death?
How we should define death?
How can we know that one is now dead permanently for sure?
Alf wrote:
zinnat wrote:What is death?

Death is "absence of life".

zinnat wrote:How we should define death?

The shortest definition is certainly "absence of life".

zinnat wrote:How can we know that one is now dead permanently for sure?

1) Knowing that there is no heartbeat of this one.
2) Knowing that there is no brain activity of this one.
3) Knowing after observing this very probably dead one further over a certain time (at least three days).

There is in fact "something else other than heartbeat and brain which keeps them alive" but that doesn't answer your three questions.
If the process of keeping a living being alive is very economical, very spare, then this doesn't mean that this living being is dead.
Your example says something about how economically a body can work, but it doesn't answer your three questions.
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Re: Death

Postby Gamer » Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:27 pm

the most relevant definition of death for me is that I will no longer think or feel.
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Re: Death

Postby zinnat » Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:36 pm

phyllo wrote:
So, does they not become clinically dead before coming to life again?
Does that not mean that the death of mere brain is not enough to be dead forever?
Does that also not mean that there must be something else other than heartbeat and brain which keeps them alive?
But humans don't have the same physiology as frogs.

What do you want to say?
Are you saying that woodfrogs should have judged by the different benchmarks of death?
And, if so, why, given that they also have pulse, heartbeat and brain activity like other specices?


When I asked if preserving the body was significant to this discussion, you said "no". So now I'm confused because freezing clearly prevents bacteria and other agents of decay (molds and fungus) from destroying the frog's body.

The issue was never about the decomposition/preservation of the body but deciding how we use to confirm death in realtime. That is why i said no..


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Re: Death

Postby zinnat » Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:56 pm

Alf wrote:
zinnat wrote:There is a breed of frog found in Alaska which is called woodfrog. Its botanical name is Rana sylvatica. We all know that frogs go into hibernation in winters. Woodfrog does the same but it goes far beyond normal hibernation.

I accidentally came to know about this while searching on the net for something else. I became curious and looked into the reasons. The survival of the woodfrogs happens due to a very special chemical procedure. When ice touches the skin of a woodfrog, it starts increasing the sugar level into some cells, which goes as high as 13 times than the normal. This high level of concentration of sugar in some cells save those from freezing. in other words, one can say that these cells remain alive during hibernation.

So, does they not become clinically dead before coming to life again?

No. There is still heartbeat and brain activity.

I think that you should read about woodfrogs a little more before making that claim.

zinnat wrote:Does that not mean that the death of mere brain is not enough to be dead forever?

No.

zinnat wrote:[u]Does that also not mean that there must be something else other than heartbeat and brain which keeps them alive?

That is different from what you have asked in your opening post.

The OP was about the defining the death thus this is also completely relevant also.

zinnat wrote:What is death?
How we should define death?
How can we know that one is now dead permanently for sure?
Alf wrote:
zinnat wrote:What is death?

Death is "absence of life".

zinnat wrote:How we should define death?

The shortest definition is certainly "absence of life".

zinnat wrote:How can we know that one is now dead permanently for sure?

1) Knowing that there is no heartbeat of this one.
2) Knowing that there is no brain activity of this one.
3) Knowing after observing this very probably dead one further over a certain time (at least three days).

There is in fact "something else other than heartbeat and brain which keeps them alive" but that doesn't answer your three questions.

I am not answering the questions but suggesting that answers provided by others are wrong for sure.

If the process of keeping a living being alive is very economical, very spare, then this doesn't mean that this living being is dead.

Now, seeing my argument, you are stepping aside from your previous position, where you mentioned clinical death.
Are you now saying that absence of heartbeat, pulse and brain activity for days are enough to decide death?


Your example says something about how economically a body can work, but it doesn't answer your three questions.

I am not claiming either that i have answered those questions. My claim is merely that all provided answers were wrong
.


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Re: Death

Postby phyllo » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:28 pm

I guess that I don't follow the reasoning which connects determination of death and the element of time.

On the one hand there is the idea of "confirm death in real-time" and on the other hand the idea that the person is "dead for days", "dead forever" and "dead permanently".
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Re: Death

Postby Meno_ » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:50 pm

Time is not an element in death, because if there is death, then there, which is nowhere, there is no time

In no time, there cannot be death ,unless death be conceived as an absolute.

Death can be only described in terms of a process of dying, the absolute can only be understood as change from this to that. Once 'this' to 'that' is severed, there is no one to account for bones and other remains as belonging to whom,
THEN no one identifiable is dead. There is an indisputable connection with identity and death, as is with identity and life

Therefore it may safely be said, that identity is the key in recognizing life and death. The idea of absolutes are.applicable to both, therefore minimizing the difference between them. Time only progresses to be only a quantum of difference between life and death, implying the functional difference approaching zero
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Re: Death

Postby zinnat » Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:08 pm

phyllo wrote:I guess that I don't follow the reasoning which connects determination of death and the element of time.

On the one hand there is the idea of "confirm death in real-time" and on the other hand the idea that the person is "dead for days", "dead forever" and "dead permanently".


Actually, it is me who is not able to follow what is there which is difficult to follow. My reasoning is as simple as it can be.

I asked how we decide clinically/scientifically that one becomes dead permanently and would never be alive again. And, you have seen the answers. But, woodfrogs defy those answers for sure. It is not me who is claiming that but scientists who studied woodfrogs for years say so. It is not about how much time has been passed since death. The real issue is that one once successfully has met the scientifically set benchmarks of death or not.

I am merely using the observations of science to challenge the benchmarks of death decided by the science itself. I am saying that absence of pulse, heartbeat and brain activity is not enough to declare death. And, that begs further questions like what is actually that causes death or happens at the time of death and what should be right benchmarks of death.

Is that still confusing!

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Re: Death

Postby zinnat » Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:18 pm

Meno_ wrote:Time is not an element in death, because if there is death, then there, which is nowhere, there is no time

In no time, there cannot be death ,unless death be conceived as an absolute.

Death can be only described in terms of a process of dying, the absolute can only be understood as change from this to that. Once 'this' to 'that' is severed, there is no one to account for bones and other remains as belonging to whom,
THEN no one identifiable is dead. There is an indisputable connection with identity and death, as is with identity and life

Therefore it may safely be said, that identity is the key in recognizing life and death. The idea of absolutes are.applicable to both, therefore minimizing the difference between them. Time only progresses to be only a quantum of difference between life and death, implying the functional difference approaching zero


I disagree with that.

There may be a process of dying. I do not deny that but there has to be one certain point/moment when it occurs.

As you said that there must some zeroing point. A process has to complete at some point, otherwise you have to accept that it is an unending process, which means that one starts dying right from time since he become alive. And, in that case, both becoming alive and becoming dead would lose their meaning.

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Re: Death

Postby phyllo » Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:12 pm

I asked how we decide clinically/scientifically that one becomes dead permanently and would never be alive again. And, you have seen the answers. But, woodfrogs defy those answers for sure. It is not me who is claiming that but scientists who studied woodfrogs for years say so. It is not about how much time has been passed since death. The real issue is that one once successfully has met the scientifically set benchmarks of death or not.
But frogs are cold-blooded and those specific frogs change their cell chemistry in preparation for the freeze cycle. They have evolved for that environment. If they lose heartbeat, breath and brain activity in some other way, then the frog won't be revived. Right?

So the frog hibernation findings don't seem to be directly transferable to humans.

One could similarly ask : If your limb is cut off, then is it permanently gone?

If you are a human then it's permanently gone but if you're a lobster then it will grow back.

The definition of "cut off" is the same for both human and lobster.
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Re: Death

Postby phyllo » Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:17 pm

And then there are planarians.
Planaria exhibit an extraordinary ability to regenerate lost body parts. For example, a planarian split lengthwise or crosswise will regenerate into two separate individuals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planarian
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